Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Speaking of counters ..... did it ever occur to you that cloaky camping already IS a counter to an otherwise uncounterable situation? In the same way you cannot counter the cloaker (AFK or otherwise), we cannot counter a pre-aligned warship.

Keeping you from making ISK is a win. Shooting the ratter an even bigger win.

-similarly-

Rendering the camper useless is a win. Even when shooting it directly is not an option.



Plus, did it ever occur to you that being invulnerable at a safespot is something ratter do too? How would you feel when some gang shotgunned to all the sites, you quickly warp off grid and cloak up. Phew! Got away clean. How would you like it if this gang subsequently threw out Cloak Scanner Probes and warped right on top of your cloaked up battleship and killed it anyway?

Let's not forget for a second this much-loathed immunity goes bothways. It's what keeps Deep Space Transports and Blockade Runners alive when they get camped in. It's what allows you to keep an eye on the system you're about to warp your Anshar to.



Please do consider that any nerf you call for can and will be used against you!! ...and before you know it you'll be unhappy with that change too, calling for "I escaped and warped to a safe and these PvP types still killed me! When will this agony end?! They're forcing me to safelog and I had a timer and when I logged back it I was pulled into an anchorable bubble and and and ...... CCP NERF DIZ TOO!!!"

This is one of those things that appear to be fairly balanced, and something both PvP or PvE players alike use to their advantage. Seems to me you don't like the way it is used in this niche situation.

I have been in this discussion for quite a while now. Gradually changing my stance according to what was being said. Because in between the one-liners and blunt attacks, some very good points have been raised. By now, pretty much everything has been said and argued; yet your position hasn't budged one inch. So let's go about this the other way around: imagine CCP granted your wish and you got what you asked for. Then how would that affect gameplay, and can you honestly say you'd be happy with that? You know people will still come for you. This pain will never stop, son. Whenever you start feeling safe, we'll be there. Count on it.

This whole thread is about filling your wallet. It is not about PvP opportunities at all - something Techos realised long before I did. Hell, even if cloaky camps would require ACTIVE effort (and what makes you think they're not active? Are you really sure about that?), here is what would happen:

instead of 7 cloaky campers occupying your systems AFK, we'd use only 2 active cloaky campers. The "perceived uncertainty" would turn into a "certainty" and you would still kiss your ratting activities goodbye. It'd take us only 2 accounts instead of 7 to do it, for an active hunter is a LOT more dangerous than an AFK one.

Your problem is not the camper. I've read the whole thread, pro and con, and it's simply not. Your problem is "hostiles" of any variety whatsoever. Cloaky or not, the hostiles will be there and although the nature of the threat may change, you'll still need to come up with a counter at some point. It took some time for Nikk to convince me "cloaked up" should indeed be considered "safe". And it took some time for Techos to convince me there are counters, in the sense that you can render the camper useless and therefore declare a win because you're making ISK and having fun while the other guy is not. And finally, that being "AFK" is none of your goddamn business I figured out all on my own. Yet none of their arguments seem to have changed your mind one bit? Then pray tell how your suggestion would affect gameplay and I will show you how we'd abuse that mechanic to keep making your life miserable. (it's nothing personal -- we love the sandbox and the people in it. There must be at least a thousand ways to die, all in good humour. Nothin' but pixels, man).

"Stations aren't modules"

And acceleration gates aren't asteroid belts - I get that. The point I was trying to make, is that they too are in space, doing their thing with impunity. I didn't say you had to anchor a station at your site, I meant to present several cases of people being out and about and pretty much as invulnerable as a camper. You too can use this mechanic!

Could you find it in your heart to consider cloaked up = safe? Because true, it's not a station. But they do spend a highslot and considerable CPU, in return for the ability to move unseen. Other than that, though, they're pretty much doing nothing. Is there any good reason why they shouldn't be safe? They're not making ISK, they're not mining roids, they're not shooting you (yet) ...... they are simply logged in and sitting there. Is that a capital offense?

Stations aren't modules but in the cases I presented, the stations are there, are as invulnerable as the pilots docked in them, so in a way they too are "camping the system". Except they don't need a cloaky to suddenly undock and tackle you. Therefore I declare living anywhere except in your deep sov null is MORE dangerous than where you're living -- and ironically, the guy living in the safest space of all is the one complaining. WTF man?

This stuff happens to people all the time, everywhere; it so happens that to be in a system with no docking rights or station you need a cloak to do it. Anywhere else we wouldn't even NEED a cloak - did you ever stop and consider that?

So let me get this straight: you would live is a universe where you could make EVERY neut in local go away at your leisure? Damn all those areas in EvE where there's less money to be made and you cannot expel the locals? By right of ... sheer awesomeness? You've lost me completely man. I honestly don't understand what you're trying to get at -- I bloody well know a station is no module but how does that even remotely invalidate anything I said?

And no, you cannot "gank" the other examples I gave you -- not without losing your own ship in the process anyway. I was on board for as long as we're talking reasonable sense, but now you're just going way overboard. I can't believe what I'm hearing. Give me a second to get this through my head:

you play EvE.
you live in deep sov null, the richest and most secure space known to man.
somebody else bring a cloaky camper to "your" system.
you complain on the forums because you're feeling insecure.
people point out several counters to the threat, even though none of them include direct confrontation -- I'll grant you that.
you refuse to take any advice and insist on carrying on exactly the way you were before.
you keep on complaining on the forums.
people challenge your claim to said sov space when it turns out you're there on your own not defending it at all.
you insist the camper has no right to be out in space.
people point out there are many other places where people are out in space without hard counters.
"stations aren't modules and you can suicide gank the others"

Man, you've got problems beyond the scope of this thread. I don't know what more there is to say. I can give you advice on dealing with the camper but there is no use. You are convinced your life is hard and we cannot soothe that no matter how hard we try.

No, that's how it's been spun, but that's not what I have been arguing at all.

I long, long ago took the "don't play here" option, and have not been back to null sec in years. It just wasn't fun.

It's sad that Nikk convinced you that stations, POS, and modules are all the same thing, requiring similar effort, time, expense, and upkeep to aquire and maintain. The fact is that Stations, Structures, and Modules are all different levels of play, and what is OK for one is not necessarily good for another. Even more ludicrous is that of the 3, cloaks are by far the safest of those, unless the station is in NPC or Empire space--but then it's usable by the cloaker as well, so the point becomes moot.

Teckos likes to think he has the inside track to how I think, as shown by his near constant reframing of my arguments into things I have not said. I don't care about ISK. I do care that the 'counters' to a cloaker are all indirect and so costly that the profit of null sec drops below high sec. That's a simple balance issue---less risk, more reward.

No, I don't want to drive neuts out of system with sheer awesomeness. I would like the option to at least try and hunt them if I decide they should not be there. That's what happens to me after all... for whatever reason someone decides space needs to be protected from my missioning, and they come to evict me. No one should be safe outside of a dock. That's EVE.

I don't care if a cloaky camper stays active. That's his choice. But that safety should require active effort. I suppose there could be an active camper religiously warping every few minutes between a network of safes... but why? All he has to do is press the cloak button and he has won.

Not empty quoting.

Because he feels entitled to lecture from a position of ignorance.

Cloaks are specifically designed to provide a high level of safety when activated at a safe spot.

Sure, but it's not balanced that the high level be 100% immune. That is the realm of stations, which have other drawbacks that make them actually less safe.

Undocked means at risk. That's the very first principal of EVE. Supporters of cloaking use that very same argument to protect their own safety, because others would prevent them from suppressing the value of the space they camp if there was a choice.

Profit comes from many sources. They may not be making isk, but their goal is getting kills, suppressing PvE, and reducing the value of the system. Just because they aren't bringing in OAK does not mean they aren't effective at their goals.

Nah, you know what?

Cloaks should not get touched even if they delete local from nullsec. It's not like it's worth breaking wormholes just to deal with the complaints of a few afk ratters who can't be asked to be at their keyboards. And it's not like wormhole players somehow magically stop being able to PvE when they have no local and the same cloak mechanics. (in fact, they're enormous bears)

Sorry (totally not sorry) Mike, but you get the Wonka Prize on this one. You get nothing.

Carebears always project. In this instance, you are projecting the fact that you know full well that you aren't taken seriously by pretty much anyone who actually talks to you for more than fifteen minutes.

Best of luck with that.

In the meantime, cloaks aren't magically going to become "broken" just by you repeating your tired old lies over and over again.