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Having moongoo tied to whoever owns the system

Author
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2015-11-30 19:37:16 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
moon goo shouldn't be tied to sov, moons should simply deplete over time, and take a month or so to refill. Having to constantly search for new moons would be a conflict driver.



Unless moon scanning changes, this would be awful.

Plus moving these days is a *nightmare* ... forced regular relocation would be hell on earth for everyone.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#22 - 2015-11-30 19:50:51 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Unless moon scanning changes, this would be awful.

Plus moving these days is a *nightmare* ... forced regular relocation would be hell on earth for everyone.


The idea needs to be fleshed out more, and yes, moon scanning would absolutely need to change. As a whole I would like to see null income taken away from passive sources (moons/PI/etc.) to sources that need active participation.

Forced moving would be hell for entrenched entities who are used to a lot of easy, risk free ISK from moons. It would be great for the entities who would have new ways to hunt in null while the new moon's POS/citadel is being set up. More opportunities for conflict and content should trump the amount of ISK that can be earned (in my mind at least)
Kacer Xenro
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2015-12-01 10:55:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Kacer Xenro
I dont think that the moons should deplete and move to a new moon, unless some drastic changes to moon scanning is implemented. The way it works right now is just too slow and tedius.

Quote:
Which, nowadays, is nobody.


Funny, you're in an alliance that has the capabilities for such operations, only reason you're holding sov is to give your members something to do.

Regardless, yes, there are alliances, that are holding pos's in sov null without even being blue to the people living there. While the people who live there have absolutely zero chance of taking said pos's, as the amount of capitals the opponent can field outnumbers anything the defenders can come up with.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#24 - 2015-12-02 12:32:45 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
moon goo shouldn't be tied to sov, moons should simply deplete over time, and take a month or so to refill. Having to constantly search for new moons would be a conflict driver.



Unless moon scanning changes, this would be awful.

Plus moving these days is a *nightmare* ... forced regular relocation would be hell on earth for everyone.



I think you're totally missing the point of depletable and non static moon goo.

It would no longer be meant to be controlled by one group so you wouldn't have to keep moving to control it all, if it spawned in the system / area where you hold sov then you mine it. Scanning all of eve to control all of the goo would truly suck making it unreasonable for a large group to control it. It would go to locals who can handle scanning their local moons.

You're looking at it from the current mega coaltion 'controlling it all' perspective. The point is to make the monopolies impractical but be a boon for local sov holders active in their systems.

It would only be awful for the current controllers of the goo. I'm trying to recall a saying.... 'we're not trying to ruin moon goo, we're trying to ruin YOUR moon goo' Something like that Lol

Kacer Xenro
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-12-02 12:37:49 UTC
While i do see your point, serependity, i still dont like it, the systems of eve might has as many as a hundred moons, even if you're a small alliance holding a few systems thats still a huge-ass amount of moons.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#26 - 2015-12-02 17:59:27 UTC
Kacer Xenro wrote:
While i do see your point, serependity, i still dont like it, the systems of eve might has as many as a hundred moons, even if you're a small alliance holding a few systems thats still a huge-ass amount of moons.


I suppose it has to do with how and when you were brought up in the world. I don't see a problem w/ doing some work to get your isk. If it's too much effort for you, then someone else will do it. If it's too much effort for everyone, T2 prices will rise until it is worth the effort. It would all work out in the end. Honestly, if it is too much effort and T2 prices skyrocketed, then after that would be a good time to change the way moons are scanned.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2015-12-02 18:10:17 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
moon goo shouldn't be tied to sov, moons should simply deplete over time, and take a month or so to refill. Having to constantly search for new moons would be a conflict driver.



Unless moon scanning changes, this would be awful.

Plus moving these days is a *nightmare* ... forced regular relocation would be hell on earth for everyone.



I think you're totally missing the point of depletable and non static moon goo.

It would no longer be meant to be controlled by one group so you wouldn't have to keep moving to control it all, if it spawned in the system / area where you hold sov then you mine it. Scanning all of eve to control all of the goo would truly suck making it unreasonable for a large group to control it. It would go to locals who can handle scanning their local moons.

You're looking at it from the current mega coaltion 'controlling it all' perspective. The point is to make the monopolies impractical but be a boon for local sov holders active in their systems.

It would only be awful for the current controllers of the goo. I'm trying to recall a saying.... 'we're not trying to ruin moon goo, we're trying to ruin YOUR moon goo' Something like that Lol



No, I'm looking at it as a local ready to cut myself when the goo cycle changes AGAIN and I need to see what is coming out for the reactions AGAIN then adjust them AGAIN.

Dear it'd be awful.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#28 - 2015-12-03 14:37:40 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
moon goo shouldn't be tied to sov, moons should simply deplete over time, and take a month or so to refill. Having to constantly search for new moons would be a conflict driver.



Unless moon scanning changes, this would be awful.

Plus moving these days is a *nightmare* ... forced regular relocation would be hell on earth for everyone.



I think you're totally missing the point of depletable and non static moon goo.

It would no longer be meant to be controlled by one group so you wouldn't have to keep moving to control it all, if it spawned in the system / area where you hold sov then you mine it. Scanning all of eve to control all of the goo would truly suck making it unreasonable for a large group to control it. It would go to locals who can handle scanning their local moons.

You're looking at it from the current mega coaltion 'controlling it all' perspective. The point is to make the monopolies impractical but be a boon for local sov holders active in their systems.

It would only be awful for the current controllers of the goo. I'm trying to recall a saying.... 'we're not trying to ruin moon goo, we're trying to ruin YOUR moon goo' Something like that Lol



No, I'm looking at it as a local ready to cut myself when the goo cycle changes AGAIN and I need to see what is coming out for the reactions AGAIN then adjust them AGAIN.

Dear it'd be awful.



By awful I think you mean not passive.

I could see where the more rare a goo is - the more often it depletes. The more common - the less it depletes. Common stuff could be found everywhere and in abundance.

And yeah, it's starting to sink in - you won't be able to set up your production chain based on 'owning' an R64 moon. You may have control of one in your back yard for 8 months or so, but then you'd have to swap if you wanted to keep producing. If R64 were on an 8 month cycle, r32 on 12 and so on it would be fine. If you're complaint is "I'll have to change everything every 8 months" then sorry, but I'm not feeling a lot of emotion for you. (4 times every 3 years - that's a pretty weak complaint)

It would seperate out the gathereing/processing of moon materials from the production of finished products. You'll have to interact w/ other players to get from moon stuff to T2 stuff.

oohthey ioh
Doomheim
#29 - 2015-12-03 14:51:33 UTC
They are removing the pos, with new structures, think the best thing to do is wait, new structures going being in the new 3 part structure reinforced system. That will make it easyer and more fun to fight over.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#30 - 2015-12-03 14:55:07 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
moon goo shouldn't be tied to sov, moons should simply deplete over time, and take a month or so to refill. Having to constantly search for new moons would be a conflict driver.



Unless moon scanning changes, this would be awful.

Plus moving these days is a *nightmare* ... forced regular relocation would be hell on earth for everyone.



I think you're totally missing the point of depletable and non static moon goo.

It would no longer be meant to be controlled by one group so you wouldn't have to keep moving to control it all, if it spawned in the system / area where you hold sov then you mine it. Scanning all of eve to control all of the goo would truly suck making it unreasonable for a large group to control it. It would go to locals who can handle scanning their local moons.

You're looking at it from the current mega coaltion 'controlling it all' perspective. The point is to make the monopolies impractical but be a boon for local sov holders active in their systems.

It would only be awful for the current controllers of the goo. I'm trying to recall a saying.... 'we're not trying to ruin moon goo, we're trying to ruin YOUR moon goo' Something like that Lol



No, I'm looking at it as a local ready to cut myself when the goo cycle changes AGAIN and I need to see what is coming out for the reactions AGAIN then adjust them AGAIN.

Dear it'd be awful.



By awful I think you mean not passive.

I could see where the more rare a goo is - the more often it depletes. The more common - the less it depletes. Common stuff could be found everywhere and in abundance.

And yeah, it's starting to sink in - you won't be able to set up your production chain based on 'owning' an R64 moon. You may have control of one in your back yard for 8 months or so, but then you'd have to swap if you wanted to keep producing. If R64 were on an 8 month cycle, r32 on 12 and so on it would be fine. If you're complaint is "I'll have to change everything every 8 months" then sorry, but I'm not feeling a lot of emotion for you. (4 times every 3 years - that's a pretty weak complaint)

It would seperate out the gathereing/processing of moon materials from the production of finished products. You'll have to interact w/ other players to get from moon stuff to T2 stuff.




Someone hasn't scanned moons in bulk.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#31 - 2015-12-03 15:09:39 UTC
My favorite proposals for moon goo are as follows:

1. Active mining of moons by player ships. The total amount of moon goo possible from a moon would stay the same as it currently is in game, but players would have to get out in space to get it. Each moon regenerates like an ice belt.

Players can mine a moon from anywhere in its orbit - so players who take the time to burn mining spots off the moon beacon get a measure of increased safety. In the alternative, the moon could be more like a gas cloud, where there are multiple nodes which can be mined at. They are all visible, but not necessarily warpable, by warping to the moon beacon

The moon mining module acts as a one-minute Bastion type module - the ship is stuck in space for a minimum of one minute if it wants to moon mine. Any ship can fit the moon mining module, but mining frigates, mining barges, exhumers, the Orca, and the Rorqual all get bonuses to mining amount. The bigger the ship, the larger the bonus.

- Pros
Ships out in space doing things
Decentralized moon goo
Benefits individual players rather than simply being alliance income
Opens up real ninja moon mining operations - way better than siphons

- Cons
Not very engaging game play, but no worse than current mining

2. Moon mining becomes another form of PI. People can establish moon mining colonies on the moons. They collect their goo either through launching it into orbit or from a POCO.

Enable orbital bombardment so that people can destroy moon mining facilities on the moons.

- Pros
Decentralized moon goo
Benefits individual players rather than simply being alliance income
Players can optimize moon goo extraction operations
Ships would be in space at POCO's, rather than inside POS shields, and therefore more vulnerable than currently
Like POS's POCO's can still be attacked, reinforced, defended, etc.
Opens up ninja Moon Interaction operations (establish your mining colony on the moon, launch it into orbit rather than using the POCO)

- Cons
PI is not the most interesting game play, but it is arguably less troublesome than mining.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#32 - 2015-12-03 16:02:20 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
My favorite proposals for moon goo are as follows:

1. Active mining of moons by player ships. The total amount of moon goo possible from a moon would stay the same as it currently is in game, but players would have to get out in space to get it. Each moon regenerates like an ice belt.

Players can mine a moon from anywhere in its orbit - so players who take the time to burn mining spots off the moon beacon get a measure of increased safety. In the alternative, the moon could be more like a gas cloud, where there are multiple nodes which can be mined at. They are all visible, but not necessarily warpable, by warping to the moon beacon

The moon mining module acts as a one-minute Bastion type module - the ship is stuck in space for a minimum of one minute if it wants to moon mine. Any ship can fit the moon mining module, but mining frigates, mining barges, exhumers, the Orca, and the Rorqual all get bonuses to mining amount. The bigger the ship, the larger the bonus.

- Pros
Ships out in space doing things
Decentralized moon goo
Benefits individual players rather than simply being alliance income
Opens up real ninja moon mining operations - way better than siphons

- Cons
Not very engaging game play, but no worse than current mining

2. Moon mining becomes another form of PI. People can establish moon mining colonies on the moons. They collect their goo either through launching it into orbit or from a POCO.

Enable orbital bombardment so that people can destroy moon mining facilities on the moons.

- Pros
Decentralized moon goo
Benefits individual players rather than simply being alliance income
Players can optimize moon goo extraction operations
Ships would be in space at POCO's, rather than inside POS shields, and therefore more vulnerable than currently
Like POS's POCO's can still be attacked, reinforced, defended, etc.
Opens up ninja Moon Interaction operations (establish your mining colony on the moon, launch it into orbit rather than using the POCO)

- Cons
PI is not the most interesting game play, but it is arguably less troublesome than mining.


+1 to this. Will never happen unfortunately, since the AFK sov null entities would give a colossal fit over losing risk-free passive income
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#33 - 2015-12-03 16:04:52 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:

Someone hasn't scanned moons in bulk.


No one is currently scanning moons. I hope you're not implying that there are some r64s or r32s that have yet to be discovered and folks are out there looking for them. I just used google to find a link to every moon in fountain. It took me minutes. Scanning moons in bulk hasn't been a thing for years BECAUSE they are static.

I'm not against compromising and making moon scanning more efficient. I just don't want it to be a 3 hour function for all of eve to be scanned every time an r64 depletes and a new one spawns. The whole 'bulk' thing is kind of nebulous though. 'Bulk' as in I need to scan all of eve's moons so I can maintain conrol of all the r64s w/ little downtime in my opinion should be impossible. 'Bulk' as in it takes 10 hours to scan all the moons in the 5 systems my corp controls - that might be OK.

I'm of the opinion that CCP could tweak the idea into balance (depletion times/amounts, respawn frequency, how difficult/time consuming moon scanning is). Time vs Amount for example - if it was soley amount based - groups could just not finish off that last 3 units of goo to make a particular goo even more rare and valuable - that could be good or game breaking - I don't claim to be able to know the answer to that.

I'm proposing an idea. The problem that I see is that moon goo is static and controlled by a very few. Once your super fleet has been established (which they are) then there is zero effort to maintain control. The possible losses are just to great to justify those fleets being lost over a single moon. The few that could challenge the super fleet protection won't based on risk and value involved. The many that can't stand against the super fleets don't even have a dog in the fight.

My solution is to make them deplete and respawn somewhere else. I'd like it to be random (not region / constellation based) so that depleting a moon in your region doesn't spawn a new one in your back yard. Could high value moons end up all in one region / area of the map for a given period of time? Sure and awesome! RIght now it's free stuff from no effort. As I've said, PI mechanics would possibly be quick and easy to adapt to moon materials, but that would pretty much remove player interaction over moon goo. Depletable and fluid goo would (again in my opinion) add player interaction and interest to the game.

At this point I'm not that hung up on all the details of the idea. 6 months/8 months/year for depletion - fine! Whatever makes it workable. Moon scanning efficiency gets tweaked (scan by planet or whatever) - great!
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