Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I think whether or not you are jealous is perfectly relevant. If you are jealous and posting this so you can whine and cry and try to get them banned because you can't do it because they already did, then you are just being a child who doesn't want to put in the work to put in something that has been done and may fail.

If you are not jealous and feel that there may actually be a need for a rule on this, then that is fine and you are trying to keep people from doing things that may not be allowed.

Either way, you obviously don't understand the rules in the first place, and then you are going around spreading rumors that may be untrue in order to support your idea. That, right there, is a deal breaker man. Come with some facts, don't go about spreading rumors. Honestly people spreading rumors like that, in my head, screams "I'm trying to get them banned because I want to do this but can't, so they shouldn't either."

So I would recommend you come with some facts if this is actually happening, and describe how it is not covered in the EULA and show how they can find the people doing this. And general discussion is probably not the place to put that discussion. And don't spread rumors. And I mean really, using the Mittani website? Standard blow from haters, and you can't deny that the website with all the news for Eve and everything else adds more depth to the Eve universe.

*That coming from someone entirely unaffiliated with the goons or The Mittani*

On top of that, I really doubt that if it IS run by a corporation that they are paying out in isk entirely. If they are for profit, they maybe, just maybe, pay real money because people don't buy food with isk, and the government doesn't come tax your isk....

Come on brother, seriously. If you want to be taken seriously, come with some solid stuff, not hearsay.

No, you have to be able to prove something to know it's going on. If you cannot ever prove that it happens, then the rule does nothing. And you obviously don't know the rules already. You are going off of what someone said, and that is ridiculous. Just stop. If I tell you the Mitanni has a peg leg and told me a joke about your mom, are you going to run to CCP and complain that someone told you the Mitanni is saying bad things? No, that's absurd. So is this entire proposal, basing it on something that somebody told you once upon a time in fairyland for pete sake.

I understand, but your argument is baseless. Why is this necessary if nobody does it? I mean the whole concept is downright silly, and even if it was to happen why are you concerned with people spending isk for services? They aren't paying RL money for the transaction, so there is no RMT involved. Make a better argument.

Ok CCP doesn't need to prove someone did something in order to clarify their rules. It would be better if they clarified the rules before someone did what they want to prevent.

I don't know if tmc or any other group is a rl corporation. But if they are then I think it is clear they are not just hobbyests with a website but are out to make real money by paying their costs with isk. I think that pretty directly violates the purpose of the rmt rules.



You are trying to draw a distinction between "real money" , "real goods" and "real services". I don't think that distinction is a very prinicipled one. Having people get real money for isk effects me no worse than if real corporations receive "real goods" or "real services" for isk.

I think you are going off on some minutia. There is no question that what certain groups are doing in light of ccps claims to be against rmt rubs many people wrong. And they have good reason. A clear rule preventing business entities from using isk to pay their costs would be quite helpful.



Its actually not silly to say the purpose of a corporation is to make money for the shareholders. Allot of business teachers will at least address that view even if they don't agree with it. Many will agree with that view on at least some level.

You offer allot of red herrings. The bottom line is corporations are set up to do business. Whether they have shareholders or not. Whether the shares in a sub s can be sold or not. That is really the point. If what you are doing with your isk is making so much real life money that you need to establish a business structure to distribute the real money profits, then I think you are going well beyond giving the guy who paid for the corp server a few isk. At that point you are trading your isk to make real money.

You have no basis to say whether any c-corps are involved in paying for services with isk. Its not that hard to zero out profits. And again its a red herring because it doesn't really matter what kind of corporation it is, all of the various structures can make allot of money.





Yes it is true that a corporation allows certain liability protections that a partnership does not. Of course if there is not really a seperate business then those protections vanish because the corporate veil will be pierced. We can talk about all these hypothetical lawsuits etc but I think we are going a bit adrift here.

If someone were so paranoid of being sued about their eve website that they felt they needed to set up a seperate corporation then well yes this rule would be too bad for them. But by an large that is not why corporations own websites. Corporations generally own websites to make lots of money. So while there might be some paranoid guy out there that is terribly afraid of losing everything due to having an eve website I think creating the rule to fit that exceptional person is not a good idea.





Let me guess you are a corporate lawyer who sets up corporations for people. I mean really, you are going to tell all the eve bloggers to incorporate?

If they do not keep up with the corporate books and open a seperate bank account for all the money etc. then forming the corporation wont help. The courts will see the corporation as a sham and they won't get the protection. And if they do all of that it is probably because they are actually making a decent amount of money from their business and they almost certainly should not be paying their corporate costs with isk.


If someone sets up a partnership or any business model where they are going to trade isk in order to make a profit then I think that is rmt. To the extent ccp does not make that clear they lose credibility.

Now those who actually incorporate to form a for profit business are the easiest to rule out. Partnerships can be a bit looser and perhaps not such an easy case. But again the bottom line in this is whether you should be using your in game items for real money gains. That may have some gray edges but this rule against corps would be an easy case. Partnerships would be more of a judgment call.


Edit:
Rowells
I think allot of what I said applies to some of what you said.


I don't think riverani Media GmbH should be paying it's costs in isk either. It is a more sympathetic case if it only does eve stuff than if it does other types of business.(I have no idea if it does) But in the end I think I would just do a clear rule that real life companies should not pay expenses with isk.

What you're complaining about is not RMT. If they were charging real money for ingame services, say charging $100 for a carrier to be built and delivered in game, that is Real Money Trading, and already has rules on it.

Paying people ISK in game for things out of game but related to the game, like web hosting, comms, forum maintainece, writing news articles, is not RMT.

Paying people ISK in game for things out of game and not related to the game, like the earlier example of selling a computer for ISK, is technically against the already existing rules. However, if the perpetrators are smart, and never openky discuss the transaction in game, then it is impossible for CCP to prove, and therefore impossible to punish.

So, that being said, there's nothing of any substance to the OP. All I'm reading in this thread is OP going grrr goons.

Many of the points you raise were already addressed, but I guess you can just read grrr goons.

What webites are "eve related" is getting stretched. If I post an article talking about eve can I then pay isk to have an entirely new website that covers all sorts of things created maintained and optimized?

These costs can be a very large amount of money for companies. The times have changed and this is now a critical part of many many businesses.


I think that is going to be impossible to draw a "related to eve" line unless you just say it has to be exclusively about eve.

But again the point of this rule is to target the intent. The intent is that people shouldn't be getting real money gains from ingame items such as isk. So making a clear rule that corporations should be able to pay their costs with isk addresses that point. It allows the hobbyist who might want to pay an ingame friend to help them set up a site to still pay with isk.




Read the title.



And another one who thinks this is just grr goons. Why do so many people think an idea to clarify the rules on rmt must just be grr goons?

Same purpose as the other rmt rules. Makes it so people are not cashing out their isk to get real life goods and services.



Same problems they intend to solve with all of their rmt rules.



Simple a real life corporation can't pay for their costs with isk.




The first person who posted said they were not aware that corporations were in fact paying people with isk. So I pointed out that it appears tmc is a corporation. I suppose you didn't actually read that since you can just see grr goons.

Even if this is so, you would ban every other service too like:

Evidence 1
No 2
And 3

And don´t we forget -->
One more


The it is stated that the writer will get ISK in reward of articles.

But what´s the problem with this ? Plese explain it.

-1

My thought exactly

But I would like to add

Why? Who is hurt by this?