Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I think CCP should clarify the rules on rmt a bit. I realize that this issue can be thorny and ultimately it will may not be amenable to clear rules but instead will require ccp to consider different factors. (I'm fine with people discussing some of these issues in this thread.)

But I do think one thing should be clear. If you have a real life corporation it should not be paying for its costs with isk. Corporations are not hobbyests that like to talk about the games they like to play. Corporations exist to make money, and real life corporations exist to make real life money.


1.2 bill isk = $15
120bill isk = $1,500
12 trillion isk = $150k

I am not sure. People were talking about shareholders of Mittani media. This would suggest the TMC is a corporation. But I am not sure if the sources are accurate. Also I am not sure if other media sites are run by a corporation. I believe mittani media pays it's writers with isk. Whether they pay for any other services such as web related services I do not know.

Whether they are or are not incorporated is not really important, as this rule is not aimed at anyone. I think ccp should make it clear that real life corporations should not pay their costs with isk. That seems the most sensible way.

If they do not do that then I would want to know when a corporation can pay for services with isk and when they can't. That will be much harder to sort out.

...

So you are proposing a solution to a problem that you are not even sure exists?!?
Talk about a waste of time.

if u believe all the rumors then Mittani and all the other big shots in goonswarm pay their mortgage and car payments with RMT (wouldn't doubt it they are a shady bunch lol) but i haven't seen any proof.

All are good questions. I would say that all of these would be RMT if they were done for a corporation as opposed to just a hobbiest.

I happen to own my own rl corporation. Can I pay to have my website done with isk? I would hope not. But maybe ccp should tell me. After all I have a decent amount of isk and if I could find a web developer to pay for my website in isk I would definitely consider it.

That is the point. Clearly if you form a for profit corporation then you are in it for the money. I mean that is the point of the corporation.





Determining what is an irl corporation is generally quite easy.

Defining services is an interesting question but it is beside the point of the issue I raise. But it is interesting, so lets think about it. If I buy an article am I buying a "service" or a "good"? If I buy a web design am I buying a "service" or a "good"? If we say you can give isk for "goods" then I can buy a car with isk right? Can I also buy a gift-card with isk? So it seems ccp may need to define a "service" versus a "good" if they want to enforce any sort of rmt rules. Or otherwise give us some clarity on what is and is not ok.

But that is beside the point. The point of not allowing rl corporations to buy services or goods or pay any of their costs with isk is straight forward and goes right to the heart of the rules. That is if the intent of the person is just to help cover the costs of their hobby that has traditionally been ok.

But almost by definition if it is a real life corporation using isk to pay for its services or advertising, it is not just a guy covering the cost of his hobby anymore. The intent of any for profit corporation is to make profits - real money profits. So this should not be a difficult decision for ccp.

If you are referring to actual products and such, unrelated to eve, it's pretty much already covered. Can't buy a new computer with isk, nor sell it for one.

Services related to eve, are a grey area. CCP knows these kinds of things are a major and beneficial part of the game, but they also don't want it to get massively out of hand. And some things are a double grey zone, where you can frame it one way or another, and it fills both categories.

If you're referring to the goon/TMC/journalism accusations, that falls under double grey.

Before anyone grrr goons me out, I'll explain.

As a professional journalist, CCP has little in the way of control. Most countries laws protect journalists from negative action simply because it doesn't favor the corporation or its related products (libel and slander aside). I can write about my experiences and opinions all day long and get paid cash for it, CCP may have little right to oppose it.

OR

I can get paid isk for doing the exact same thing, but frame it as "for the betterment of the game". Writing guides, stories, blog posts, propaganda, etc (so long as I'm not selling IP stuff, revenue from views and ads does not fall under this...mostly). personally I think those aspects add a layer to the game that makes it much more involved. However, CCP does have some control on that, but as they've vaguely approved or allowed it, they would have to change policy and maybe even go back on their word to do so. Now, if someone was paying isk to write "60 shades of grey" and it is completely unrelated to eve, that is against the existing policy.

What really is an issue there, is if someone does both at the same time. How do you logically seperate the same actions, by purpose, while still maintaining the rights and desired fidelity of players?

Of course, selling your corpse for money is a definite no-go.

Then of course, there are things like streaming and videos that are even further into the grey.

If someone is willing to work for isk in place of any other currency I simply don't see a problem with paying them in isk. What exactly is all the fuss about?

Personally, I wouldn't take isk for payment. That's my prerogative. But if I were in a situation where it made sense I certainly wouldn't see the harm.

Well ccp does try to draw lines here. You trade some things for isk but not others. Whether they want to just give up on the whole rmt thing is their option. But in the meantime I think they should treat everyone with the same rules. In order to do that they need to actually have some rules. Some rules may be hard and again I think they may need to resort to considering a set of factors. But some rules should be easy.

The rule I propose is an easy one. If it is a corporation then it can not pay its costs with isk. Real life Corporations are made to make real money for their shareholders, so there is no legitimate way isk should be used to pay for a corporation.




I don't necesarilly agree with everything you say but I do agree that the idea behind the rmt has allot to do with intent. That is why ruling out the possibility of using isk to support a real life corporation is so easy. The purpose of setting up a corporation is to make money for the shareholders. So it is pretty much impossible to say that a corporation using isk to get services or pay costs is not rmt.

eidt:


It doesn't effect me any more than it effects all the players in eve. I have never liked the idea that if you are in with the right people you can do this but if you are not you can't. That is why I am a big fan of the rule of law.

What is free marketing and pr? I suppose any mention of eve or isk is free marketing and pr. I don't think all pr is good pr. Having a game that markets itself as cold and ruthless, but also might bend the rules and play favorites is bad pr. IMO CCP should avoid that.

Here's the thing.

Example 1: Joe owns a business. Joe knows Tony. Tony files tax returns. Joe calls Tony and says "File my corporate taxes and I'll give you 10 billion isk". Tony files the taxes and Joe pays 10 billion isk. Prove this is what happened. CCP has no clue, all they know is that Joe gave Tony 10 billion and the reason says "loan to help friend"

Example 2: Joe owns a business. Joe knows Sue is a web designer. Joe tells Sue "manage my corporate website and I will pay you 1 billion isk a month". Sue manages the website and Joe pays 1 billion isk per month. Prove this is what happened. CCP has no way of knowing what they talked about out of game privately.

Simply put, you can't prove squat unless these people are running around telling people what they have done.

Are you ok with it as long as it is related to Eve, such as isk being paid for TS servers? How about paying a member of your alliance isk to maintain a website/forum for your alliance? There are many services out of game that better your experience with the game, and it makes for a much deeper and richer universe.

Honestly I really really doubt that what you are suggesting happens much anyway, if at all. There is no RL corporation paying isk to someone in another RL corporation to maintain their RL website. If that is happening, and the corporation who the website is for can't find an IT person or use one of the easy-to-use cheap website builders, they probably have other issues and I can't imagine they'll be a RL corporation for too long.....Just sayin.