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This brain in a box patch and it's impact IMO

First post First post
Author
Velarra
#61 - 2015-11-26 22:21:17 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:

Also, note that developers may often ask for further information on the record of notes for the bug itself. You will only see these requests by visiting the My Bug Reports page, and if you do not respond in a reasonable time, the bug may be closed, if the original submission was not enough to fully describe the problem.


A ping of some kind or very attention grabbing blinking in game for this notification would be really helpful depending on the severity of the issue, type of issue etc. Particularly if the dev only responds hours later after the BR's been filled / sent in.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#62 - 2015-11-26 22:26:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
CCP Darwin wrote:
You can see your bug reports (both open and closed reports) by visiting the My Bug Reports page. Their bug report numbers will be listed here, and if you should speak directly to a developer to ask about a bug, that number will be very helpful in following up..
Taking a sample, all of mine were closed without comment. I received a few e-mails but those looked like form letters generated by a bot.
I act upon and solve problems at work with less details than I provided (yes sometimes the bug hunters would have to look at the attached image and text at the same time.)
CCP Prism X wrote:
amount of people that are just netflix & chill about it is worrying me
Do not worry! My passion for EVE is only elipsed by my passion for the staff. Some get love, some get hate but I will make up for those slugs who feel nothing more than hungry! Lol

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#63 - 2015-11-26 23:01:22 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Darwin
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Taking a sample, all of mine were closed without comment. I received a few e-mails but those looked like form letters generated by a bot.

Player-visible comments are the exception, not the rule.

One of the most common reasons* for a bug report being closed is if it's not possible to reproduce the issue and the submitted client logs do not provide any additional information that sheds any light on the problem. In these cases, QA and the bug hunters still keep an eye on the volume of reported bugs to try to identify ones that might benefit from concerted, long-term effort to reproduce.

* thank you CCP Goliath!

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

Clay Coulter
URSA PRIMUS
URSA.
#64 - 2015-11-27 08:21:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Clay Coulter
I have to say the amount of information on bug reporting that is coming out from so many devs is absolutely astounding.
I think my eyes are tearing up at the thought that there might just be hope still for our game


now if we can just get better Black Ops fatigue reduction
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#65 - 2015-11-27 09:48:43 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Taking a sample, all of mine were closed without comment. I received a few e-mails but those looked like form letters generated by a bot.

Player-visible comments are the exception, not the rule.

The most common reason for a bug report being closed is if it's not possible to reproduce the issue and the submitted client logs do not provide any additional information that sheds any light on the problem. In these cases, QA and the bug hunters still keep an eye on the volume of reported bugs to try to identify ones that might benefit from concerted, long-term effort to reproduce.


Interestingly enough, the actual most common use case for closure is support tickets that are misfiled as bug reports! This has been the case for most of this year so far. We are working on raising awareness of the differences between the two so that these mistakes lessen.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#66 - 2015-11-27 10:27:43 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Interestingly enough, the actual most common use case for closure is support tickets that are misfiled as bug reports! This has been the case for most of this year so far. We are working on raising awareness of the differences between the two so that these mistakes lessen.

I knew I should have checked the numbers before making that comment. :)

My earlier post begins with some suggestions about when to use support tickets or bug reports, and I encourage reading it.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

Zifrian
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2015-11-27 16:53:57 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
On the topic of bug reports, here's some info that might help.

When to report a bug instead of opening a support ticket

Open a support ticket first on this page if your gameplay has been affected in such a way that you need personal assistance. If you need reimbursement, your character is stuck somewhere and unable to move, or you cannot log in and play the game, a support ticket is the only way to get the help you need. Support tickets go to our customer service group, who are the only group with access to your account information or your character in-game.

If you believe that something you experience is a result of a software defect, a bug report is a separate step that you can take that will directly report problems to Eve's development team. Bug reports can get the software defect corrected, but will not usually result in personal assistance.

Our support team will attempt to report software defects they become aware of in their interactions with players, but as a rule, if you think you have encountered a bug, you want personal assistance, and you also want to help get the software defect corrected, I recommend opening BOTH a support ticket AND a bug report.

Reporting a bug from in-game

When you experience an issue in-game, the BEST way to report a bug is to press F12 and click the "Report Bug" button in the Help window that appears. This will open a page that asks you to provide a title, description, and reproduction steps. It will also allow you to take one or more screenshots, which can be very helpful in communicating the problem. Using this page, we'll receive a package of information from your computer including recent client logs, your hardware and software configuration, and the information you provide, plus some details like which character submitted the report and where you were in space at the time.

Describing the bug

Regarding a description, please try to be as complete as possible about the nature of the problem. "My capacitor doesn't show up," for example, is a description that's ambiguous about whether you're talking about a graphic element being missing or all the expected UI elements being present and reading the wrong number. It also doesn't specify whether you're talking about the in-space HUD (though that might be our assumption) or, say, something like the fitting window, or maybe even a capacitor-related module on your ship.

A better description of a hypothetical problem would be something like: "Occasionally, after jumping through a gate, I notice that for a period of three to five seconds, my in-space capacitor readout indicates that I have 0% capacitor. Despite this, I am able to activate modules, and mousing over the readout indicates 100% capacitor on the tooltip." This description indicates what you were doing when the issue occurred, that it's a UI readout indication, that other UI readouts disagree, that the displayed value is obviously incorrect (since you can activate modules) and how long the problem lasts.

Reproduction steps

Reproduction steps can be problematic if you are encountering something intermittent, but please be specific, and, if possible, complete. "Fit and sit in a ship, undock, and fly around for 3-5 hours watching the capacitor display carefully to see your status after each gate jump" might be one way to put it. If it only happens in a certain ship or always happens right before (say) downtime, mention that in your reproduction steps. A person who follows your steps should be as likely as you are to experience the problem, if possible. (And yes, I realize that some things happen intermittently. It can help to be specific in the reproduction steps about how often they happen, so that a tester knows what they're in for and doesn't simply try a gate jump or two and say "cannot reproduce.")

If you cannot get into the game or wish to report a bug out of game

You can report a bug by going to the Bug Reports page.

How to find the bug report number, see status, or see requests for further information for a bug you've already submitted

You can see your bug reports (both open and closed reports) by visiting the My Bug Reports page. Their bug report numbers will be listed here, and if you should speak directly to a developer to ask about a bug, that number will be very helpful in following up.

Also, note that developers may often ask for further information on the record of notes for the bug itself. You will only see these requests by visiting the My Bug Reports page, and if you do not respond in a reasonable time, the bug may be closed, if the original submission was not enough to fully describe the problem.

Finally

All of us on the team recognize that your reporting bugs through this system requires care, effort, and time. We deeply appreciate your contribution whenever you submit a bug, and you should be aware that your submissions go straight to the relevant development team.

Thanks for this.

One issue I have though is figuring out how to categorize freezes of the game or things like laggy content in the system. These issues really don't seem to have a place. What would you suggest for issues of not being able to log in? What about laggy performance?

Thanks

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder

Zifrian
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2015-11-27 16:59:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
CCP Goliath wrote:
CCP Darwin wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Taking a sample, all of mine were closed without comment. I received a few e-mails but those looked like form letters generated by a bot.

Player-visible comments are the exception, not the rule.

The most common reason for a bug report being closed is if it's not possible to reproduce the issue and the submitted client logs do not provide any additional information that sheds any light on the problem. In these cases, QA and the bug hunters still keep an eye on the volume of reported bugs to try to identify ones that might benefit from concerted, long-term effort to reproduce.


Interestingly enough, the actual most common use case for closure is support tickets that are misfiled as bug reports! This has been the case for most of this year so far. We are working on raising awareness of the differences between the two so that these mistakes lessen.

I'd suggest taking a different approach and combining the system into one and call it "Bug Report"? Educating the player-base on the difference is going to be something that you will never achieve. Not to be a cynic but having done programming for some time, something not working = "bug". People are going to continue to call something not working right in a game "a bug" no matter what you try with awareness.

I suggest building a system that conforms to the reality of the player base and not try to teach them something they aren't going to learn anyway. Make a simple, one stream interface for all issues - then, if the customer has an issue, it goes in this bucket no matter what you want to call it internally. It makes your work harder but the customer is happy you are dealing with their issue instead of canceling the report because it's improperly categorized.

Maybe combine the two systems and just give better descriptions for areas to categorize or allow your two teams to transfer reports internally when they realize they aren't bug reports or vice versa. I think the categorization system is also hard to understand, which might be because you took a support focused look at the issues instead of a customer focused one.

Anyway, hope you get the issues worked out. Thanks!

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder

CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#69 - 2015-11-27 17:01:35 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
One issue I have though is figuring out how to categorize freezes of the game or things like laggy content in the system. These issues really don't seem to have a place. What would you suggest for issues of not being able to log in? What about laggy performance?


Freezes or laggy performance definitely qualify for a bug report. The best thing you can do is submit an in-game bug while the issue is happening, with a screenshot. You can type ctrl-F to bring up the FPS monitor, which you can use to include a plot of your frame rate in your screenshot.

If you are not able to log in, please submit a support ticket first. If you think you are experiencing a software problem that's causing the issue, you can submit a bug report also, but the purpose of the support ticket is to get help that will allow you to log in. The bug report simply lets the development team know of a potential software issue.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#70 - 2015-11-27 17:02:22 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
CCP Darwin wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Taking a sample, all of mine were closed without comment. I received a few e-mails but those looked like form letters generated by a bot.

Player-visible comments are the exception, not the rule.

The most common reason for a bug report being closed is if it's not possible to reproduce the issue and the submitted client logs do not provide any additional information that sheds any light on the problem. In these cases, QA and the bug hunters still keep an eye on the volume of reported bugs to try to identify ones that might benefit from concerted, long-term effort to reproduce.


Interestingly enough, the actual most common use case for closure is support tickets that are misfiled as bug reports! This has been the case for most of this year so far. We are working on raising awareness of the differences between the two so that these mistakes lessen.

I'd suggest taking a different approach and combining the system into one and call it "Bug Report"? Educating the player-base on the difference is going to be something that you will never achieve. Not to be a cynic but having done programming for some time, something not working = "bug". People are going to continue to call something not working right in a game "a bug" no matter what you try with awareness.

I suggest building a system that conforms to the reality of the player base and not try to teach them something they aren't going to learn anyway. Make a simple, one stream interface for all issues - then, if the customer has an issue, it goes in this bucket no matter what you want to call it internally. It makes your work harder but the customer is happy you are dealing with their issue instead of canceling the report because it's improperly categorized.

Maybe combine the two systems and just give better descriptions for areas to categorize or allow your two teams to transfer reports internally when they realize they aren't bug reports or vice versa. I think the categorization system is also hard to understand, which might be because you took a support focused look at the issues instead of a customer focused one.

Anyway, hope you get the issues worked out. Thanks!


I agree with this. If you make a system complex, you should expect complex results.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

Zifrian
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2015-11-27 17:04:23 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Zifrian wrote:
One issue I have though is figuring out how to categorize freezes of the game or things like laggy content in the system. These issues really don't seem to have a place. What would you suggest for issues of not being able to log in? What about laggy performance?


Freezes or laggy performance definitely qualify for a bug report. The best thing you can do is submit an in-game bug while the issue is happening, with a screenshot. You can type ctrl-F to bring up the FPS monitor, which you can use to include a plot of your frame rate in your screenshot.

If you are not able to log in, please submit a support ticket first. If you think you are experiencing a software problem that's causing the issue, you can submit a bug report also, but the purpose of the support ticket is to get help that will allow you to log in. The bug report simply lets the development team know of a potential software issue.

OK great.

When I submitted my ticket for failure to not log in, I used this:

Category
Game Play > Interfaces, Controls & Menus

Is this correct? This is what I meant by the correct category. They seem a little confusing for me or I totally missed the proper one.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder

CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#72 - 2015-11-27 17:05:16 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
I'd suggest taking a different approach and combining the system into one and call it "Bug Report"? Educating the player-base on the difference is going to be something that you will never achieve.


The distinction is pretty simple:

If you need us to do something to help you personally, it's a support ticket.

If you're notifying us that you think something's broken and you don't need us to do something to help you personally, it's a bug report.

If you want personal help and you think the software may be doing something broken, open both.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#73 - 2015-11-27 17:15:53 UTC
Zifrian wrote:

When I submitted my ticket for failure to not log in, I used this:

Category
Game Play > Interfaces, Controls & Menus


It depends on what type of problem you're experiencing. Based on the words you used to describe the problem, I'd probably go for:

Type: Billing & Account
Category: Login issues

If you choose a category other than the best fit for your type of issue, it shouldn't interfere with a GM helping with your ticket, but a player's inability to log in is an issue our customer service team regards as a particularly high priority.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

Zifrian
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2015-11-27 17:47:52 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Zifrian wrote:

When I submitted my ticket for failure to not log in, I used this:

Category
Game Play > Interfaces, Controls & Menus


It depends on what type of problem you're experiencing. Based on the words you used to describe the problem, I'd probably go for:

Type: Billing & Account
Category: Login issues

If you choose a category other than the best fit for your type of issue, it shouldn't interfere with a GM helping with your ticket, but a player's inability to log in is an issue our customer service team regards as a particularly high priority.

Agree but this is a good example of how confusing the system is. I didn't bother looking in Billing & Account since I assumed that was issues with billing, payment, subscriptions, etc.

Furthermore, I can't update my current ticket to be put into this category. I've played since 2007 and haven't had to use the support system until now. I have to say it's not very intuitive and needs some work.

As far as simple distinction between bugs and support, I think you missed my point. Users don't really care unless you specifically ask them to distinguish. Perhaps standard Q&A questions, like what you did with me here, would help in getting the ticket filed in the correct system with the correct priority.

I know we are off-topic here but appreciate the input.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder

Yadaryon Vondawn
Vicanthya
#75 - 2015-11-27 21:02:17 UTC
I am really curious what the maximum amount of dirt is and how long it will take to reach it. Any time windows you can disclose? Will being offline in space count towards spacetime and thus more dirt?
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#76 - 2015-11-27 21:48:33 UTC
Your question belongs in the comment thread for the dirty ship dev blog, but I'll try to answer.

Yadaryon Vondawn wrote:
I am really curious what the maximum amount of dirt is and how long it will take to reach it. Any time windows you can disclose? Will being offline in space count towards spacetime and thus more dirt?


A ship starts clean the first time it appears onscreen, whether you sit in it in a hangar or enter it in space. From there, wall-clock time determines how dirty it is, unless you use the Clean Ship feature. The ship will get more dirty regardless of whether you are docked or in space, occupying the ship or flying something else.

Dirt will accumulate fastest in the first month, and by the end of the first year the ship will look very dirty. Ten years later, the ship will be noticeably more dirty, but it will be pretty close to that one-year-old look.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#77 - 2015-11-27 22:49:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentient Blade
CCP Darwin wrote:
Your question belongs in the comment thread for the dirty ship dev blog, but I'll try to answer.

Yadaryon Vondawn wrote:
I am really curious what the maximum amount of dirt is and how long it will take to reach it. Any time windows you can disclose? Will being offline in space count towards spacetime and thus more dirt?


A ship starts clean the first time it appears onscreen, whether you sit in it in a hangar or enter it in space. From there, wall-clock time determines how dirty it is, unless you use the Clean Ship feature. The ship will get more dirty regardless of whether you are docked or in space, occupying the ship or flying something else.

Dirt will accumulate fastest in the first month, and by the end of the first year the ship will look very dirty. Ten years later, the ship will be noticeably more dirty, but it will be pretty close to that one-year-old look.


I would like to request new festival launchers that operate as giant squirt guns and allow you to troll other ships by forcibly washing them cleaner the longer you use them.
Circumstantial Evidence
#78 - 2015-11-28 00:54:54 UTC
Sentient Blade wrote:
I would like to request new festival launchers that operate as giant squirt guns and allow you to troll other ships by forcibly washing them cleaner the longer you use them.
That starts a train of thought about cosmetic PvP... an escalation of local chat mud slinging, to actual mud slinging.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#79 - 2015-11-28 02:36:46 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Interestingly enough, the actual most common use case for closure is support tickets that are misfiled as bug reports! This has been the case for most of this year so far. We are working on raising awareness of the differences between the two so that these mistakes lessen.
I think I am pretty good at filing bugs as bugs Smile:

Connection problems - Hi, my whole corp is having connection hiccups In and around SystemX
Ghost Worm Hole - Can find it on probes. Can't physically find it. Come see it quickly.
Disconnects - (Old computer) Somehow EVE keeps turning off my adapter. Connects to network but disconnects from internet.
Node dead - time and system provided.
Click bait - Where has the report function gone?
Effects - New effects are not disabled with the setting turned off.

So on and so forth.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#80 - 2015-11-28 17:12:20 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Darwin
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Connection problems - Hi, my whole corp is having connection hiccups In and around SystemX
Disconnects - (Old computer) Somehow EVE keeps turning off my adapter. Connects to network but disconnects from internet.
Node dead - time and system provided.

Network and operations problems like those are generally better for a support ticket than a bug report. If it's feedback on the current state of TQ, our bug reporting process won't be able to do much to handle it. Also, in your case of repeatable disconnects on old hardware, it might help to work with one of our tech support GMs to ensure you're running supported hardware and appropriate driver versions, etc., and submit a bug report only once they're out of ideas.

If your hardware is particularly unusual or ancient, we may not be able to reproduce the issue even in our hardware test lab (where we maintain a range of equipment from minimum spec to the latest for just that purpose.)

Quote:
Ghost Worm Hole - Can find it on probes. Can't physically find it. Come see it quickly.

Unless a developer gets extraordinarily lucky, this problem is likely to self-correct before someone comes across your report and checks it. If there are numerous other reports like yours, it'll get attached to those and they'll be tracked together. If your report is the only one of its kind, it may well be closed because it can't be reproduced.

Quote:
Click bait - Where has the report function gone?
Effects - New effects are not disabled with the setting turned off.

These two are definitely candidates for bug reporting, although it's possible that one or the other change was intended, in which case the bug will be closed.

In the case of the second one of these, is this an actual issue right now? Can you send me the bug report number in-game, if so?

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins