EVE General Discussion

The reason why players have protested microtransactions, it is because these mechanisms are open to wide abuse with enough ISK or RL money. Exposing Skill Points to that abuse will have a trickle down effect on every aspect of the game.

(what's the effect? Wider separation of have's and have-not's)

PLEX reduces RMT because it provides a competitively priced alternative to RMT: buy ISK legally from CCP itself.

I'm calling PLEX is an alternative because people can buy ISK without PLEX (i.e.: RMT).

People can't buy SP today (it's not part of the game mechanics).

When SP Trading is introduced, you are also opening up the path for SP to be traded for money (an RMT possibility that didn't exist before). Since legal SP Trading will always be priced less competitively than the RMT alternative (since SP Trading is being introduced as a microtransactional source of income for CCP, not as an RMT preventer like PLEX) we're talking about a previously nonexistent pipe of RMT.

I have my doubts as to how this RMT pipe can be policed. This RMT pipe, since it's new, will require additional policing resources. And how would you prove that any SP is RMT anyway?



tl;dr PLEX and Character Bazaar are a necessary microtransactional evil in order to prevent RMT through mechanics already present in the game (ISK trading, Character trading).

SP trading only introduces another mechanism for RMT trading, not prevent it.

Preventing it isn't the point. There is actually no policy, rule change, or mechanic that can stop RMT. Designing game mechanics, or not designing them, to prevent RMT is wasteful and stupid. All changes to the game should be to enhance player experience, to make the game a better game! Any argument against SP trading that falls outside this fact is nonsensical. You could make the argument that stopping RMT makes the game a better game, but then you'd have to show that stopping RMT is possible. It isn't. A simple internet search will prove that. And even if you could, that doesn't mean you'd have a better game.

And quite frankly, I haven't heard a decent argument against SP trading. It will help older characters isn't good enough. Everything helps older characters. Any change you make will help someone in a position to capitalize on it, and older characters fall into that group more than anyone else.

People with money will have an advantage? They already do. This new mechanic doesn't change that fact. But really, what advantage? You can only train a skill so far for any given ship. More earnings potential? They can buy plex and sell it for isk, no change in that fact is brought on by blocking SP trading from becoming a reality.

I get that change is scary but damn! You guys get anxious over the silliest of BS.

I'll tell you about how you don't prevent RMT: by introducing another method to easily do so. And why introduce the method? To help newbros who are bored to death waiting for a ship doctrine to fly in? The logic does not follow. If that is a problem that needs to be solved (and no one is arguing it is a problem after the starting 400k SP bump) then it should be solved using un-tradable SP.





Let me be very clear here, since it doesn't seem to be. You and I are players and offering our opinions. Neither of us are CCP employees (I hope!) and we don't control the IP or the game. What they decide to do is their right alone. I feel simply that I voice my opinion what I feel better adheres to the spirit of the game as CCP has themselves described it to us.

To be fair, there is no new method, just a new item which follows existing methods of RMT for all in game items. To suggest this is a comparatively detrimental RMT driver that subverts detection suggests:

a) CCP has little to no means to detect any RMT activity involving in game items other than isk,
b) this driver is one that somehow uniquely distinguishes itself from isk demand since that just routes back into another RMT mitigation, PLEX and
c) that this driver be greater than any provided by the high prices of the Bazaar itself to obtain the needed isk at a lower RL price point than allowed by PLEX.

While there could be some merits to the idea of direct sale only vs trading, if for cash only it just exasperates the issues between have's and have not's that forms the basis for most of the objections, and if for AUR, assuming the demand is sufficient to actually be an RMT driver while tradable, still remains an RMT driver for isk due to the isk > PLEX > AUR conversion (if not a sufficient driver it just comes down to whether player controlled availability beats infinite availability, which I'm on the fence about.).

Side note: If item RMT is actually untraceable then so is isk trading due to items being redeemable for isk on market for those that have figured that out. Taking the train of thought that this is the case breaks any means of RMT policing against the smart.

From where does the idea originate that vets can't be allowed to benefit from changes designed for new players? Your example doesn't deny the benefit to new players, just that older players can use it, which itself shouldn't be an issue since the capacity to control multiple alts now has a capacity limit (with the assumption of abiding by the EULA/TOS).

The benefit for older players is capped here in the same method. There are only so many low SP slots vets have on their accounts and as such only so much use that can be had before the hit the efficiency limits designed to work against them. And again, it doesn't deny the potential to help new players or state why it wouldn't.

Articulate them then. 'Grr CCP are teh dumb' isn't going to work. You were the first to start the #firefozzie crap, right here on GD btw. The arguments against that type of behaviour are also solid.

Why don't you just write something up in relation to the mechanic, without the overt hostility towards anyone in particular?

Sib, I wrote a longer post regarding RMT just as the forum crashed. I did save it, but looking at it I can't post it without being unintentionally rude/condescending. A few others might deserve that tone, but you don't and you might be onto something relevant. I can see the edges but not follow it through because I'm too close to the char trading market/recruitment side by default.

If you could clarify what you mean by RMT in relation to this topic (i.e. inbound/outgoing), define the casual 'cash out' RMTers vs the professionals etc. I'd also really question that assumption that Plex/ETCs were put into game purely to curb RMT - despite the public citation.

But you're throwing up multiple objections (AT/RMT/SP gap) and it's tough to orient in response. Drop me a mail if you like, I don't want to accidentally savage a legit point, and it reads like these are interlinked.


I bought Marsha early on (legally) because the name amused me. Still does.

My understanding is that GTC (Game Time Cards) where just a popular mechanic in the early MMO days to allow players to buy game time in a brick and mortar store. This way you didn't have to use your credit card for an online transaction.

RMT could and can be done withouth using game time. Traditional RMT is just a transaction where in-game currency or items are sold for real money. (reminder: RMT is a EULA violation that will get you banned !)

RMT has two sides:
- an ISK buying party
- an ISK selling party

The ISK buyers seek an ingame advantage to trade for real money. (I'm not being judgemental here, just explaining the mechanic).

The ISK sellers fall into two categories:
- players who made some ISK and want to benefit from that ISK in a way that is not directly supported by the game.
- non-players who seek a way to make real money using the game a means and the players as a target.

CCP recognized that especially the non-players engaging in RMT are a problem. Those guys were responsible for hacked accounts and were making money off of CCPs IP.

The "Timecode Bazaar" was a first step into legalizing the trades already happening between players (those who bought game time with ISK from those seeking to get ISK for real money.) Basically the demand for ISK was channelled away from the illegal sources towards the now legal sources.

The PLEX just made trading and applying game time to an account easier for everyone. The most important part to CCP is probably that it works without GM supervision, saving them money.

TL;DR: Were ETCs introduced to curb RMT ? No, but since players started trading ETCs, CCP came up with the Timecode Bazaar to prevent "illegal" RMT. The PLEX automates the function of the Timecode Bazaar. So PLEX is a tool against RMT.

The difference would be that TSP would allow SP trade instead of character trade. (see Sibyyl's posts. Part 1 is linked in my signature). In essence, a character has a history and reputation which have an effect beyond the actual SP. A specialized character is the result of careful planning and months of training time to achieve a skill-set. TSP is just pooling SP into packs of unallocated SP.

There are differences between ISK and SP too:

- ISK is supposed to be gained through activity. Passive ISK gain is the exception rather than the norm.
- SP were designed to accrue passively, this would change with TSP (for better or for worse)

- ISK making is rarely entirely risk free: ISK or whatever makes you ISK can be lost, destroyed, stolen ... Buying ISK doesn't make you immune to those risks.
- SP are pretty safe on your account. With the removal of loosing SP when podded, only losing a Tech3 ship still incurs this penalty. So buying SP is a permanent advancement, buying ISK is more of a temporary boost.

- SP were designed as a class system that was flexible in allowing you to create a character defined by your preferences, but also confining you to your previous choices for a set amount of time.

I'm not against tradeable SP as a mechanic. I have two main concerns toward the proposed system:
- The potential signal sent to new players: You have to buy SP early on to be competitive, but since you don't have much ISK as a beginner you'll have to spend real money to buy PLEX so you can afford SP. All this while paying a monthly subscription fee.

- Until now there was no grind for SP. The only thing you might want to grind for are ISK. Making SP tradeable adds SP to the list of items you may grind ISK for.

From all the discussions had around TSP, I liked the proposed idea of flattening skill dependencies as a way to help newer players to get into the gameplay they prefer quicker. The argument was that, if new players want to fly battleships, why should they have to train frigates, cruisers, small turrets, medium turrets first. Why not allow them to go straight for large turrets and the BS skill ?

Other than this I would prefer if the amount of SP you could add to a character was capped to a monthly max. This would allow CCP to analyze how the mechanic is used without it becoming a run away train. It would also preserve some of the function of the SP system: pushing you to make meaningful choices in what class/role you want to play. Otherwise, what's stopping you to be a fully skilled miner & ore refiner & industrialist & trader if it isn't the time investment ?

When trading a character, it may have meant getting paid less then for a similar character with good reputation. For the buyer it meant dealing with possible adversity.

But you're right, the current state of the game is less harsh than it used to be. Back in the days I didn't worry too much about possibly having too many SP. That is until getting podded started costing me 30 million ISK to replace my medical clone. This penalty has gone. It's also nearly impossible to forget to set skill training, since we now have the unlimited skill queue.

Taking another step to make it easier for players to create the character they want to play is good. What I don't want to see is this system directly linked to a players capacity to spend money. I'm not British, but I prefer waiting in queues to everyone rushing to get ahead of each other, or worse paying a premium to get a special treatment.

The next question is why maintain the SP system, when CCP is going to short-cut it.
Why wait a week for a skill to train if you could just buy it "instantly trained" instead ? But then why pay for a skill to "be instantly trained" when you're already paying for the skillbook and for access to the game ? If the waiting time for a skill to complete is a problem, then why not lower or remove the waiting time instead of inserting a payable short-cut ?

P.S. The character bazaar was just the lesser evil compared to people selling characters over e-bay. It wasn't a planned mechanic, but rather a response to what players were doing anyway despite it being against the EULA.



By planning, I meant that the seller had to decide which skills would get the best market value and establish an efficient raining plan to minimize costs and maximize profits.

The proposed SP trading system would mean that the seller can train any skill, since he only needs the SP not the skills.

In both cases you wait for SP to accrue, but in the first case the actual skills trained is what really matters. The issue is that it turns creating viable characters (miners, pvp pilots, carrier pilots ...) into farming SP.

So if I left this last part off you'd have nothing to say, good to know I could include you.