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Lv4s 100-150mil/h+: Breakdown

First post
Author
The Bigpuns
United Standings Improvement Agency
#121 - 2015-11-25 18:43:53 UTC  |  Edited by: The Bigpuns
Edit: wondered where my reply had gone, thought the forum ate it, reposted, realised Jenns post had probably been Oblitermoderated, decided to make this post about cats instead.

Cats eh?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#122 - 2015-11-25 18:49:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Market McSelling Alt wrote:



The stupid part of Jenn's argument is that the game is already set up exactly as he wants it to be. You can make X amount of isk blitzing lvl 3s and 4s in High-Sec and you can make exactly 2x the same amount doing the same in Null Sec.

The argument comes in that Jenn thinks Null Sec is more risk filled than High-Sec, and no amount of data is going to change his mind.

So if you want to make 2x the High-Sec income and then some, run Mordus lvl 4s in 5Z or one of the pirate factions. The LP is double that of a High-Sec system and the LP is worth more. LP makes up more than 65% of the mission income per hour, so voila... Risk vs Reward.

Same goes for Incursions. You can have more in fleet, with little chance of being contested and make more per site in Null-Sec. Do what you preach. Run the content in Null that is already available that makes far more than you could ever hope to in High-Sec with the same content.

I can't help it you are a coward.


How does one be a coward in a video game? Liar, sure, coward, not possible.

NPC null agents are pretty nice. notice I'm not talking about them Talking about them is a dodge, because it's an attempt to defelct from the actual issue. Same with null incursions, how stupid would a group have to be to invade someone to run PVe sites that pay like 13 or 14 mil per site per pilot than high sec ones.



I do get where the opposition comes from (we're all human of course), we see it all the time in real life. In some cases it's self interest overpowering reason (ie your wallet is dependent on you not understanding). In other cases it's ideology overpower reason, some people are ideologically opposed to the kinds of people who 'live' outside high sec, and see any attempt to address balance issues as an attempt to strengthen people they don't like / weaken people they do like, or both.

Both of the above are crazy as Rosie O'Donnell. We.are.talking.about.a.video.game. We are talking about measurable issues in that video game. We are talking about things you can experience for yourself. And yet you people would rather obfuscate, lie, misdirect. In a discussion about imaginary money in a game with imaginary spaceships.

I find that in-freaking-credible. I've seen worse in real life, but that's real life where real stakes are involved. But this is pretty out there.. If it makes you happy to beleive what you belive about the game we're talking about, I won't stand in your way, but I mean really, i think some of you might actually need some help lol.

Good Day, sirs.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#123 - 2015-11-25 18:50:20 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
I stopped watching that video when people started pissing on each other.


This is what happens when you brag about how much you make in hi-sec with your blitzing. You provoke null crybabies like Jenn to start whining about nerfing hi-sec income blah blah.

Jealousy is an ugly thing.


rofl, translation "damn it Anize, stop tellign the truth!!!!!".
ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#124 - 2015-11-25 18:51:45 UTC
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The Bigpuns
United Standings Improvement Agency
#125 - 2015-11-25 18:53:50 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:



The stupid part of Jenn's argument is that the game is already set up exactly as he wants it to be. You can make X amount of isk blitzing lvl 3s and 4s in High-Sec and you can make exactly 2x the same amount doing the same in Null Sec.

The argument comes in that Jenn thinks Null Sec is more risk filled than High-Sec, and no amount of data is going to change his mind.

So if you want to make 2x the High-Sec income and then some, run Mordus lvl 4s in 5Z or one of the pirate factions. The LP is double that of a High-Sec system and the LP is worth more. LP makes up more than 65% of the mission income per hour, so voila... Risk vs Reward.

Same goes for Incursions. You can have more in fleet, with little chance of being contested and make more per site in Null-Sec. Do what you preach. Run the content in Null that is already available that makes far more than you could ever hope to in High-Sec with the same content.

I can't help it you are a coward.


How does one be a coward in a video game? Liar, sure, coward, not possible.

NPC null agents are pretty nice. notice I'm not talking about them Talking about them is a dodge, because it's an attempt to defelct from the actual issue. Same with null incursions, how stupid would a group have to be to invade someone to run PVe sites that pay like 13 or 14 mil per site per pilot than high sec ones.



I do get where the opposition comes from (we're all human of course), we see it all the time in real life. In some cases it's self interest overpowering reason (ie your wallet is dependent on you not understanding). In other cases it's ideology overpower reason, some people are ideologically opposed to the kinds of people who 'live' outside high sec, and see any attempt to address balance issues as an attempt to strengthen people they don't like / weaken people they do like, or both.

Both of the above are crazy as Rosie O'Donnell. We.are.talking.about.a.video.game. We are talking about measurable issues in that video game. We are talking about things you can experience for yourself. And yet you people would rather obfuscate, lie, misdirect. In a discussion about imaginary money in a game with imaginary spaceships.

I find that in-freaking-credible. I've seen worse in real life, but that's real life where real stakes are involved. But this is pretty out there.. If it makes you happy to beleive what you belive about the game we're talking about, I won't stand in your way, but I mean really, i think some of you might actually need some help lol.


Good Day, sirs.


Says the person who approaches CCP employees to speak to them in person about these issues. Srsly?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#126 - 2015-11-25 18:58:56 UTC
The Bigpuns wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:



The stupid part of Jenn's argument is that the game is already set up exactly as he wants it to be. You can make X amount of isk blitzing lvl 3s and 4s in High-Sec and you can make exactly 2x the same amount doing the same in Null Sec.

The argument comes in that Jenn thinks Null Sec is more risk filled than High-Sec, and no amount of data is going to change his mind.

So if you want to make 2x the High-Sec income and then some, run Mordus lvl 4s in 5Z or one of the pirate factions. The LP is double that of a High-Sec system and the LP is worth more. LP makes up more than 65% of the mission income per hour, so voila... Risk vs Reward.

Same goes for Incursions. You can have more in fleet, with little chance of being contested and make more per site in Null-Sec. Do what you preach. Run the content in Null that is already available that makes far more than you could ever hope to in High-Sec with the same content.

I can't help it you are a coward.


How does one be a coward in a video game? Liar, sure, coward, not possible.

NPC null agents are pretty nice. notice I'm not talking about them Talking about them is a dodge, because it's an attempt to defelct from the actual issue. Same with null incursions, how stupid would a group have to be to invade someone to run PVe sites that pay like 13 or 14 mil per site per pilot than high sec ones.



I do get where the opposition comes from (we're all human of course), we see it all the time in real life. In some cases it's self interest overpowering reason (ie your wallet is dependent on you not understanding). In other cases it's ideology overpower reason, some people are ideologically opposed to the kinds of people who 'live' outside high sec, and see any attempt to address balance issues as an attempt to strengthen people they don't like / weaken people they do like, or both.

Both of the above are crazy as Rosie O'Donnell. We.are.talking.about.a.video.game. We are talking about measurable issues in that video game. We are talking about things you can experience for yourself. And yet you people would rather obfuscate, lie, misdirect. In a discussion about imaginary money in a game with imaginary spaceships.

I find that in-freaking-credible. I've seen worse in real life, but that's real life where real stakes are involved. But this is pretty out there.. If it makes you happy to beleive what you belive about the game we're talking about, I won't stand in your way, but I mean really, i think some of you might actually need some help lol.


Good Day, sirs.


Says the person who approaches CCP employees to speak to them in person about these issues. Srsly?
\

I'll remember to not talk about the video game they make next time i go to a video game event hosted by video game makers. Thanks for the help, I never would have got that without you.

(Who knew telling the truth about a measurable issue would generate so much hate lol).
The Bigpuns
United Standings Improvement Agency
#127 - 2015-11-25 19:06:40 UTC
You keep talking about telling the truth. We'll keep pointing out when you're missing the point. And yes, blatant hypocrisy does count as missing the point.

Thought you weren't talking to us any more?

Cats eh?
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#128 - 2015-11-25 19:16:46 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:


Well, that can be fixed by CCP by allowing the Command Destroyers to use their Micro Jump Drive Generator in hisec. Can we say Incursion ganking? There are already a lot of isk faucets, but not enough isk drains.


I simply don't understand this thinking. No one wants to attack incursion runners. They aren't doing anything wrong, and we (folks like me) are among them. They aren't breaking any rules.

The activity they do is the unbalanced thing. That's a CCP issue and they need to fix it (not destroy it). I think the thing underlying the idea about "just go attack them" is the idea that jealousy is a motivation here.

It is not. My wallet is filled with incursion isk and my journal has 1 mil CONCORD LP that i haven't sold yet (I sell on the chat channel set up by TVP btw). I'm simply observing a broken thing and talking about how to fix it, again no one wants to attack incursion runners (or FW missions runners, or high sec mission blitzers).


Miners can be ganked.
Mission Runners can be ganked.
Haulers can be ganked.
Almost any player ship in space can be ganked when enough effort is applied, except Incursion runners in aa incursion site. Why? Because when you try to warp in with a fleet of Smartbombing BS and turn on the SBs, the server lags badly, and by the time one SB gets off, Concord has arrived and killed everyone. This is wrong.

Don't give me that crap that no one wants to attack incursion runners. Only when Incursion runners have to move to a new incursion system do their sphincters tighten up, because they know they are a prime gank target. People try to gank incursion runners all the time when they are moving and would love to gank a fleet, but currently the tools at hand are woefully lacking.

Besides, putting in a method to gank Incursion fleets would add the appropriate amount of risk to their Incursion activities.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#129 - 2015-11-25 19:30:50 UTC
Technically you can make more isk in nullsec running missions than you do in hisec running missions. As long as you are unhindered/uninterrupted you will make a considerable more amount of isk running missions in nullsec. You can easily test this by logging onto to SISI and using the OPs method at a nullsec mission hub.

Try it and post how much isk you make.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#130 - 2015-11-25 22:58:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
I must admit, if burners offered double the LP in losec rather than just slightly more I would be tempted to go blitz them in the cheapest ship that gets the job done on the basis that the occasional PvP ship loss is acceptable if you are making 60 mill every few minutes. Aside from which some of the burners would be quite manageable in PvP capable ships.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#131 - 2015-11-25 23:51:35 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Technically you can make more isk in nullsec running missions than you do in hisec running missions. As long as you are unhindered/uninterrupted you will make a considerable more amount of isk running missions in nullsec. You can easily test this by logging onto to SISI and using the OPs method at a nullsec mission hub.

Try it and post how much isk you make.


I wouldn't be surprised if it was very similar or even less. One of the biggest things pushing up the value in lanngisi is the constellation layout. With some null mission corps yes you can get a better isk/lp ratio, but I really doubt you will be flying with ascendancy implants. And you are going to be going more jumps on average to get to your mission. add I don't even know how much more lp, and also 1000 isk/lp to the payout, and then change average time from 6 to 10 mins I'm not sure it is a very favorable trade off. Some napkin math says it could be favorable, but if you add any sort of risk premium I doubt it. I'm also not really sure about completion time, how much pimp would most people be willing to put on their null burner blitz ships?

I also don't know what the maintenance missions would look like. in highsec many are just warp in MJD gank a few ships, warp out. most of those would be pretty safe to run in null as you are in mission for such a short period of time. If you undock and it is immediately hostile then yea probably best to call it off. but if you can get into the mission you can probably get it done before anyone can disturb you, unless you know the people probing you are damn good.

although I have heard of people multiboxing 5 accounts and in that case perhaps if you can pull multiple burners in the same direction and then kill 3-4 each time you undock. but now I'm going off into speculation land.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#132 - 2015-11-26 00:21:21 UTC
Some quotes from a different place where I'm sharing my guide that might be applicable.

Quote:
It works in NPC null too btw; I've been messing around with it for a small while. If you think 0.5 sec burner missions give out tons of LP, take a look at 0.0 sec burner missions.
Also, you don't have to copy-paste anti-burner fits blindly. The "Unified Daredevil" with 3 armor-repair rigs runs every single "Anomic Agent" mission perfectly well. It has the same completion time for the Daredevil Burner as the Hawk, and is only ~45 seconds slower than the Wolf against the Cruor.
It's cool to see that someone independently came up with almost the exact same Polarized Garmur blitzing fit as me though.


and

Quote:
Depends on the area, some places are more camped than others. L4 missions are usually 1 jump maximum with the better paying mission usually in the same system. Once you get high enough standings you can decline essentially any mission you want.


and

Quote:
Look at PFP-GU for an example. I made my first 1bil blitzing missions there with a 6000 isk:LP ratio (back in 2013). Two L4 security agents and it's literally empty 22/7. In the ~3 months I spent there I only ran into two gate-camps, and only lost 1 ship (was trying to MJD-kite an Arazu).
There's better examples of course, but that's a decent-enough one.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#133 - 2015-11-26 00:26:44 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Some quotes from a different place where I'm sharing my guide that might be applicable.

Quote:
It works in NPC null too btw; I've been messing around with it for a small while. If you think 0.5 sec burner missions give out tons of LP, take a look at 0.0 sec burner missions.
Also, you don't have to copy-paste anti-burner fits blindly. The "Unified Daredevil" with 3 armor-repair rigs runs every single "Anomic Agent" mission perfectly well. It has the same completion time for the Daredevil Burner as the Hawk, and is only ~45 seconds slower than the Wolf against the Cruor.
It's cool to see that someone independently came up with almost the exact same Polarized Garmur blitzing fit as me though.


and

Quote:
Depends on the area, some places are more camped than others. L4 missions are usually 1 jump maximum with the better paying mission usually in the same system. Once you get high enough standings you can decline essentially any mission you want.


and

Quote:
Look at PFP-GU for an example. I made my first 1bil blitzing missions there with a 6000 isk:LP ratio (back in 2013). Two L4 security agents and it's literally empty 22/7. In the ~3 months I spent there I only ran into two gate-camps, and only lost 1 ship (was trying to MJD-kite an Arazu).
There's better examples of course, but that's a decent-enough one.


there are no mission agents in the vest bulk of null.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#134 - 2015-11-26 00:40:04 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Some quotes from a different place where I'm sharing my guide that might be applicable.

Quote:
It works in NPC null too btw; I've been messing around with it for a small while. If you think 0.5 sec burner missions give out tons of LP, take a look at 0.0 sec burner missions.
Also, you don't have to copy-paste anti-burner fits blindly. The "Unified Daredevil" with 3 armor-repair rigs runs every single "Anomic Agent" mission perfectly well. It has the same completion time for the Daredevil Burner as the Hawk, and is only ~45 seconds slower than the Wolf against the Cruor.
It's cool to see that someone independently came up with almost the exact same Polarized Garmur blitzing fit as me though.


and

Quote:
Depends on the area, some places are more camped than others. L4 missions are usually 1 jump maximum with the better paying mission usually in the same system. Once you get high enough standings you can decline essentially any mission you want.


and

Quote:
Look at PFP-GU for an example. I made my first 1bil blitzing missions there with a 6000 isk:LP ratio (back in 2013). Two L4 security agents and it's literally empty 22/7. In the ~3 months I spent there I only ran into two gate-camps, and only lost 1 ship (was trying to MJD-kite an Arazu).
There's better examples of course, but that's a decent-enough one.


there are no mission agents in the vest bulk of null.


There are no lvl 4 security agents in the vast bulk of High-Sec either... and 97% of the agents in High-Sec don't pay out enough in the right kind of LP to bust what you can make mining in Null.

Most LP is worthless, most mission agents in High-Sec are worthless. There are very few worthless agents in Null.

By the way, there are well over 200 Level 4 Security agents in Null sec. So you are pretty much wrong anyways.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#135 - 2015-11-26 00:43:50 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:


There are no lvl 4 security agents in the vast bulk of High-Sec either... and 97% of the agents in High-Sec don't pay out enough in the right kind of LP to bust what you can make mining in Null.

Most LP is worthless, most mission agents in High-Sec are worthless. There are very few worthless agents in Null.

By the way, there are well over 200 Level 4 Security agents in Null sec. So you are pretty much wrong anyways.


Feel free to tell us where the level 4 agents are located in dek
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#136 - 2015-11-26 00:54:07 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:


There are no lvl 4 security agents in the vast bulk of High-Sec either... and 97% of the agents in High-Sec don't pay out enough in the right kind of LP to bust what you can make mining in Null.

Most LP is worthless, most mission agents in High-Sec are worthless. There are very few worthless agents in Null.

By the way, there are well over 200 Level 4 Security agents in Null sec. So you are pretty much wrong anyways.


Feel free to tell us where the level 4 agents are located in dek


I'm sure he will, while again not realizing that what he's saying helps us prove the point: High Sec is so unbalanced if you want to compete with it you can't even PVE in space you fought for, you have to stick to NPC space.
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
#137 - 2015-11-26 01:27:27 UTC
I ran missions in syndicate 0.0 for transtellar shipping, was mad LP's, for the 5 mins i was able to undock in a PVE ship, without being interupted.

@JerryTPepridge

Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#138 - 2015-11-26 01:55:30 UTC
1. I did mention in a previous post that Sov Null needed a way to add mission agents.
2. I also mentioned that mission rewards for the mission agents in nullsec are better than their hisec counterparts.
3. I also mentioned that if you can run missions without interruption in null, then the payout is better.

Basically if you can replicate the same parameters in nullsec as you have in hisec, then the nullsec payout would be better due to the higher mission rewards. Unfortunately, you can't; which is why comparing L4 mission income with nullsec ratting is no comparison. Now, compare hisec ratting with nullsec ratting, and I think you will find the payout is way better in nullsec.

To summarize, you are comparing 2 different activities; not the same activity.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#139 - 2015-11-26 02:59:54 UTC
In an ideal sandbox game things like SOV null should have no ISK faucets at all just really good drops of loot that can be sold off to the SOV holder (who replaces the NPC corp as mission giver more or less) or even shipped back to hisec at a huge profit.

I am not 100% seeing the logic of "move to null and get out of the PvE grind" and "null needs more PvE ISK faucets" at the one and same time.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#140 - 2015-11-26 04:51:45 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
1. I did mention in a previous post that Sov Null needed a way to add mission agents.
2. I also mentioned that mission rewards for the mission agents in nullsec are better than their hisec counterparts.
3. I also mentioned that if you can run missions without interruption in null, then the payout is better.

Basically if you can replicate the same parameters in nullsec as you have in hisec, then the nullsec payout would be better due to the higher mission rewards. Unfortunately, you can't; which is why comparing L4 mission income with nullsec ratting is no comparison. Now, compare hisec ratting with nullsec ratting, and I think you will find the payout is way better in nullsec.

To summarize, you are comparing 2 different activities; not the same activity.


This is actually repeating the mistake CCP has made for years.

In the beginning, CCP made high sec missions and low sec missions that paid more and null sec missions that paid the best. Then they did it with Incursions. What happened is that they simply did not understand that people seek safety, so high sec missions and incursions get done while the low/null versions mostly do not.

And the made Anomalies the core of the null sec PVE scheme, which was a mistake because anomalies were never meant to be used like that. They were meant to be minor encounters that were easy to find and moderately easy to complete (as opposed to signature complexes, which were the major encounters).

People have claimed for years that you can compare anoms to missions and incursions. The reason you can is because CCP were the ones who made anoms the centerpiece of Null/WH living. The more dangerous the space, the more lucrative it should potentially be. It was prior to 2009 when a single drop from a DED 10/10 was at minimum the equal of more than 15 missions (back then, 30 mil per hour was considered good, where as a 10/10 would drop a minimum of 500 mil in overseers effect, CCP nerfed that in 2009 to the current 212 mil minimum).

PVE rewards need a good, bottom up review (along with a total change to how things like moons work, moon mining should be done by ships, not towers/structures). Of course, to the people making a killing under the current status quo, just saying that last sentence is some kind of blasphemy it seems.