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Lv4s 100-150mil/h+: Breakdown

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#81 - 2015-11-24 09:52:04 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:



Tengu has better speed, range, application and is in general better at blizing lv3 missions than a mach. and Yet a fullt skilled 13au/s Tengu can't reach 100mill/h but you want a 1month old Machariel to do it? BAHAHAHAHA.

Did I say 100 mil?


Anize Oramara wrote:

Here is an interesting way to look at it however. A near fully skilled rattlesnake does close to 1500 dps, Typhoon Fleet should get decently close to it and so should some of the faction blaster boats. Even a Max skilled Mach should get 1400. In null that should get you very close to 100mill/h but lets go with 75mill/h per character. This thread has Arthur use 3 faction battleships with ascendencies to run Lv4 missions and he's making at most 150mill/h. With those 3 ships he should be breaking 225mill/h in null easily, consistently and infinitely. And best part is you can just add more characters. Heck put them in different systems so when one gets camped you can continue to rat somewhere else.



He isn't blitzing the sites.

Anize Oramara wrote:


In my case I realistically can't run more than one character doing what I do, it's just not feasible to run at that speed without making mistakes.


Think again

Anize Oramara wrote:

You're comparing Hyper optimized 8 billion isk invested operations (Focussed on ONE character. Every character you add is another 8bill) to a single afktar in null (That shares the huge investment with a 40k user alliance and additional alts is the cost of a single ship). At the very least what I'm doing is worth a fully set up deathstar pos in a fully upgraded system and a ratting carrier. Start there and see what's easier to expand, what gives the most return the fastest and what has the higher cap; the null operation by adding alts or the Hi-sec operation by adding alts?

But you know all this, or you should...


Best income by far is incursions if you are running multiple alts. if you only have the one account then running FW missions in a bomber. Highsec level 3s in a mach worth less than a billion (including the hull) will come close to matching carrier income in null anoms, level 4s in highsec will beat it.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#82 - 2015-11-24 10:08:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Best income by far is incursions if you are running multiple alts. if you only have the one account then running FW missions in a bomber. Highsec level 3s in a mach worth less than a billion (including the hull) will come close to matching carrier income in null anoms, level 4s in highsec will beat it.

This is the only thing worth replying to. No one has been able to post numbers that prove what you're saying (and plenty have tried), only numbers that refute what you're saying. I've not been able to aither, running for SOE with the best isk/lp with a far better setup than 1 month old mach. And yes, as soon as you say carrier income you're talking about 100mill/h + and yet:

Quote:
Did I say 100 mil?


Try not to contradict yourself in the same post.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#83 - 2015-11-24 13:27:52 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:


- My point regarding getting an ALT and training an ALT to help you run nullsec anoms is that that's how that kind of conent is best run, in my experience. You can't really do the whole ALT thing with blitzing lv4s it just doesn't work from what I've been able to test. You can have 4 alts or heck almost as many as you want in the same site (or hell different sites once they hit 6 months old whatever) and it won't have much of an impact on your isk per character; 60mill on the low end, 240mill/h total for 4 toons. I tested this as well when I WAS ratting in null. Do you get this point yet or do I have to explain it in more detail? HS and Null is different, get over it.


High and null are suppsoed to be diferent. The difference is that null is supposed to be the highest income potential (or now, since womrhole have been introduced, the 2nd highest) with the highest (or not 2nd highest) risk of losing a ship.

But because CCP isn't very good at making or balancing PVE content, we have this situation of backwards incentives where someone like me can dual box 2 machariels in space where they are likely to be attacked and still make a lower income than if i'd just kept ONE Mach in Lanngisi bltizing non-burner missions and selling scan probes to sell orders.

And you're ok with that because you benefit from it. That's human (in the worst sense of the word), and it's wrong.


Quote:

- Yes my alt was actually in a Myrm (a ****** one at that, all Meta 4) while my main was in a navy typhoon (Meta sentries and meta cruise launchers). I was racking in 100 mill/h in sansha space in a ****** system too. I could do 24mill ticks solo and do 16mill+ per character per tick when dual boxing. We were in a warzone and I never lost a ship. The potential is there easily.


Yep. 2 characters. 30 bucks (us) per month, to make 100 mil per hour in unsafe space.

OR you could just do this, in HIGH SEC, for half the real life cost while gathering wealth at a higher rate.

But people like you will claim up and down that this is ok. This is called selfishness, it has no place in the adult world, or even in something as silly as a video game.

Look, I'm done with you people (God bless Baltec for staying in the fight on the right side of the issue). Like i said before, it would be nice if you could understand and admit to these issues that negatively affect me and others you play the game with while you wallow in rewards staying safe behind CONCORD. But it's understandable that you won't.

The fight for a return to PVE rewards sanity (it wasn't perfect prior to 2009, but it made more sense than this current crap) will be won with the developers, not by getting min/max zealots to admit they know their content is unbalanced.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#84 - 2015-11-24 14:06:15 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Best income by far is incursions if you are running multiple alts. if you only have the one account then running FW missions in a bomber. Highsec level 3s in a mach worth less than a billion (including the hull) will come close to matching carrier income in null anoms, level 4s in highsec will beat it.

This is the only thing worth replying to. No one has been able to post numbers that prove what you're saying (and plenty have tried), only numbers that refute what you're saying. I've not been able to aither, running for SOE with the best isk/lp with a far better setup than 1 month old mach. And yes, as soon as you say carrier income you're talking about 100mill/h + and yet:

Quote:
Did I say 100 mil?


Try not to contradict yourself in the same post.


You seem to have a big problem with context and following conversations.

Yes you can hit 84-90 mil/hr using a blitz mach in level 3s. It has been tested and verified several times including in the pirate battleship rebalance thread.

No a month old pilot cant do that but I never said they could. I said a month old mach pilot blitzing level 3 missions in highsec will beat an afktar running null anoms.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#85 - 2015-11-24 15:30:32 UTC
Nullies also get the odd deadspace/faction drop when ratting belts and anoms. Of course you can't really factor that into your hourly equation, but it is an additional factor in ratting income.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#86 - 2015-11-24 16:04:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
No a month old pilot cant do that but I never said they could. I said a month old mach pilot blitzing level 3 missions in highsec will beat an afktar running null anoms.

And I've tested it, with my alt, this month and this is not true. Can't even make that in lv4s with my alt because I can't skip as many missions since he cant run burners yet so I HAVE to grind through a angel extrav or a blockade or some of the worse missions like buzzkil, silence the informant, the score, saboteurs, mordus, etc etc etc. every now and then.

Quote:
High and null are suppsoed to be diferent. The difference is that null is supposed to be the highest income potential (or now, since womrhole have been introduced, the 2nd highest) with the highest (or not 2nd highest) risk of losing a ship.

But because CCP isn't very good at making or balancing PVE content, we have this situation of backwards incentives where someone like me can dual box 2 machariels in space where they are likely to be attacked and still make a lower income than if i'd just kept ONE Mach in Lanngisi bltizing non-burner missions and selling scan probes to sell orders.

Null IS the highest income potential, that's the whole point I've been making. Not just on a single player level (easiest content to multibox) but the bigger the corp/alliance the higher the potential. It requires more alts, alts that in a war situation you use for cynos, boosting, logi (reps), logistics, capitals but the point is null has the highest INCOME POTENTIAL at all levels except solo character play.

I blitzed lv4s with the mach before starting on burners, I wish I could find the posts I made before I started running burners but I DO have isk per minute numbers for my lv4 missions. This includes travel time to and from the station. A quick calc shows on average I'd be maxing out at 120-150mill per hour or between 2 to 3 mill/minute for most blitz type missions with a nearly maxed out Mach. This is T2 guns, BS5 and a head full of billions of isk worth of implants. 2 Machariels might be able to match that in null, 3 will definitely out pace it. Income Potential.

End of the day though, SOE probe launchers, probes and ships are rising in price. Not enough people are running lv4 missions, or running them fast/effectively enough to keep the price down. DEDspace modules on the other hand are stupidly cheap but lets not go there. If lv4s are so do dang lucrative why isn't the mission hubs swarming with mission runners? There used to be well over a 100 mission runners in Lanngisi at the times when I was running missions. Now? 40, maybe 50. I'm throwing my guide everywhere I can, theoretically this should be to my detriment, more mission runners means worse LP rates and yet the opposite is happening. Explain it to me.

For that matter if you guys are so GRR Missionrunners why aren't you guys ganking the heck out of all the blingy ships? See this is exactly what I'm saying, can't be arsed to lift a finger to fix a perceived problem, just whine whine whine to CCP to fix it when you can do something about your problem yourself. I though that's what Eve was about, I thought that was what the nullsec corps were about, kicking over other people's sandcastles. I saw a problem; almost no one was Doing It Right(tm) and I dang well am trying to fix it and all you two can do is whine and moan about how unfair it all is.

Quote:
And you're ok with that because you benefit from it. That's human (in the worst sense of the word), and it's wrong.

That, that right there is what you're reduced to doing, and it's not even accurate. How am I benefiting by writing a public guide and spreading it wherever I can? *Disappoint* Ugh

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#87 - 2015-11-24 16:26:16 UTC
From your own guide:
Quote:

With the introduction of Burner missions to Lv4 mission agents it has become somewhat trivial to consistently make well in excess of 200million isk per hour with just a little bit of training and preparation. This can be done on a single, well trained character in the relative safety of Hi-Sec, indefinitely.


Somehow, you understand the idea of overhead when ti comes to your own activity, but can't understand why what you are saying about null (brushing off the requirement for ALTS) proves the point I'm making.

Oh well, we don't need you to be honest about it, in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter that you can't do it. But palyer to player, I'm just making sure you know what you are doing..
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#88 - 2015-11-24 16:30:08 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Nullies also get the odd deadspace/faction drop when ratting belts and anoms. Of course you can't really factor that into your hourly equation, but it is an additional factor in ratting income.


That's true, and you can make a lving in null.

The whole point is that the game as it stands creates the backwards incentive to not do that. WHY do that (if isk for other things like PLEX is part of the goal of doign the content) would you do null PVE when you could spend less time achieving the same goal from high sec.

That means that people like me (who would prefer to do pve in null) have to make the choice between "do what I like but attain goal slower, or do what I don't like as much but attain goal faster" In my case it's rat in null, or run incursions and make that plex or get that isk for that New Barghest I want to fly quicker.

IMO it's nonsense. Not the end of the world, but still nonsense.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#89 - 2015-11-24 17:14:27 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:

And I've tested it, with my alt, this month and this is not true. Can't even make that in lv4s with my alt because I can't skip as many missions since he cant run burners yet so I HAVE to grind through a angel extrav or a blockade or some of the worse missions like buzzkil, silence the informant, the score, saboteurs, mordus, etc etc etc. every now and then.


No, you haven't tested it. If you had you would know just how silly easy it is to do. The blockade for example is super easy.

Shoot the stasis tower, pop destroyer trigger, kill the singleton in the three waves, kill Tribunus, warp out.

Anize Oramara wrote:

I blitzed lv4s with the mach before starting on burners, I wish I could find the posts I made before I started running burners but I DO have isk per minute numbers for my lv4 missions. This includes travel time to and from the station. A quick calc shows on average I'd be maxing out at 120-150mill per hour or between 2 to 3 mill/minute for most blitz type missions with a nearly maxed out Mach. This is T2 guns, BS5 and a head full of billions of isk worth of implants. 2 Machariels might be able to match that in null, 3 will definitely out pace it. Income Potential.


You just made my point for me, in order to beat highsec income you have to roll multiple alts.


Anize Oramara wrote:


For that matter if you guys are so GRR Missionrunners why aren't you guys ganking the heck out of all the blingy ships? See this is exactly what I'm saying, can't be arsed to lift a finger to fix a perceived problem, just whine whine whine to CCP to fix it when you can do something about your problem yourself. I though that's what Eve was about, I thought that was what the nullsec corps were about, kicking over other people's sandcastles. I saw a problem; almost no one was Doing It Right(tm) and I dang well am trying to fix it and all you two can do is whine and moan about how unfair it all is.


You don't fix game imbalances by tossing away billions of isk in useless ganking. You fix the problem.

Anize Oramara wrote:

That, that right there is what you're reduced to doing, and it's not even accurate. How am I benefiting by writing a public guide and spreading it wherever I can? *Disappoint* Ugh


You are benefitting from an income far higher than you should for the level of risk, effort and investment you put in.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#90 - 2015-11-24 17:25:08 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


You just made my point for me, in order to beat highsec income you have to roll multiple alts.


I love it when that happens. Market McSelling Alt did that for me once (before CCP Quants DEVBLOG verifying it), saying how incursions only had a few people then posting a graph showing bounties as the #1 isk faucet while not noticing that #3 was Incursion isk pay outs (thus proving the imbalance he was arguing didn't exist). I sat in front of my computer and laughed till i cried on that one.

Another example is "you can make more with a carrier in null" means you need a CAPITAL SHIP to match what you can do with a sub cap in safer space (again proving the imbalance). They will do anything to deflect and deny the truth, and frankly I find it disturbing, if they'll do that in a video game then......
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#91 - 2015-11-24 17:47:41 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Nullies also get the odd deadspace/faction drop when ratting belts and anoms. Of course you can't really factor that into your hourly equation, but it is an additional factor in ratting income.


That's true, and you can make a lving in null.

The whole point is that the game as it stands creates the backwards incentive to not do that. WHY do that (if isk for other things like PLEX is part of the goal of doign the content) would you do null PVE when you could spend less time achieving the same goal from high sec.

That means that people like me (who would prefer to do pve in null) have to make the choice between "do what I like but attain goal slower, or do what I don't like as much but attain goal faster" In my case it's rat in null, or run incursions and make that plex or get that isk for that New Barghest I want to fly quicker.

IMO it's nonsense. Not the end of the world, but still nonsense.


I have no dog in this fight. I can care less either way as I don't rely on missions for my sole isk generation, but I don't think missions are the main reason people stay in hisec.

The main detractor of living in null for me, is logistics. The market sucks there, and unless you are in a good alliance, ship replacement can be a royal pain. Oh, and ship replacement usually only applies to certain activities in certain areas. Can't use expensive implants, unless you want to spend billions to replace every time you lose them. You have to have an alt. Ratting/Anom running/mission running gets put on hold whenever a neutral enters the area or a CTA is called. Mission running in null can be done, but it really isn't worth it. The payout isn't worth it. So really what is the incentive of living in nullsec? Why would a day old toon want to make the move to null?

Of course, the solution is to nerf hisec income; because no one who lives in null wants to actually put some effort into making null look attractive again. Nullies just want to take the easy path and nerf hisec because it works better for them.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#92 - 2015-11-24 18:35:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Estella Osoka wrote:


Of course, the solution is to nerf hisec income; because no one who lives in null wants to actually put some effort into making null look attractive again. Nullies just want to take the easy path and nerf hisec because it works better for them.


If you had a problem with your car's battery, would you fix it (replace the battery) or would you work on every other part of the car that wasn't the battery.

High Sec is the problem, so high sec gets fixed. Nothing i do or can do will make my ships in null make the same kind of isk per hour with one character as what is possible via Anize Onamara's missions blitzing guide. Incursions don't come around often, and if I stuff 40 people into anoms we all might make 9 mil isk per hour because of how the bounty system pays out (unlike the incursion system).

The only way I make the same as Anize Onamara does is if you use multiple characters. Do you understand what that means? It means that people in high sec get to pay 15 bucks a month and make more wealth than I would paying CCP 45 bucks per month, all because I choose to live in space not protected by police npcs.

(The adaptation I and others have made to this imbalance is to have high sec mission/incursions and FW alts to make isk with, the game just about forces us to do this, and this is wrong, imagine the outcry if high sec people had to have null sec alts to make decent isk with, there would be a riot).

How exactly are we (in null) supposed to fix that? Without hacking CCPs database that is.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#93 - 2015-11-24 18:45:32 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:


Of course, the solution is to nerf hisec income; because no one who lives in null wants to actually put some effort into making null look attractive again. Nullies just want to take the easy path and nerf hisec because it works better for them.


If you had a problem with your car's battery, would you fix it (replace the battery) or would you work on every other part of the car that wasn't the battery.

False premise/straw man.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#94 - 2015-11-24 19:13:09 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:


Of course, the solution is to nerf hisec income; because no one who lives in null wants to actually put some effort into making null look attractive again. Nullies just want to take the easy path and nerf hisec because it works better for them.


If you had a problem with your car's battery, would you fix it (replace the battery) or would you work on every other part of the car that wasn't the battery.

False premise/straw man.


Denial-ism (self interested denial-ism at that).
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#95 - 2015-11-24 19:59:08 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:


Of course, the solution is to nerf hisec income; because no one who lives in null wants to actually put some effort into making null look attractive again. Nullies just want to take the easy path and nerf hisec because it works better for them.


If you had a problem with your car's battery, would you fix it (replace the battery) or would you work on every other part of the car that wasn't the battery.


I'd make sure the battery was the problem. It would be kind of foolish if I replaced the battery and then ended up replacing it again and again, only to learn the problem was really bad wiring or a bad alternator.

Hisec was nerfed previously with the removal of L5s in hisec, and moving them exclusively to lowsec. Did this cause the desired effect? No. People just learned how to efficiently do L4s. At least until Incursions came along, then Incursions became the cash cow of hisec. Now the best cash cow in the game, besides C5-C6 WHs, is FW L4 missions. What does nullsec have? Better ores? Better ratting? Better anoms? Moon mining? Not enough income generation, and certainly not quality income generation as far as I am concerned.

I have missioned in hisec, I have missioned in lowsec, and I have missioned in nullsec. The payout for missioning in lower security space is not as lucrative as it should be. The payouts should be more. The bounties should be more.

Oh and some of the best income that lowsec and nullsec had, got extremely nerfed when CCP thought it would be a great idea to make exploration so super easy. Sure it gave ya'll more targets in lowsec and nullsec, but it also took away some good income.

If it was me, I'd want CCP to remove Incursions from Hisec. Lowsec and Nullsec only. Increase the reward multiplier for doing mission in lower security space. Fix FW missions so you can not do missions in a stealth bomber. Make ships equipped with warp stabs unable to capture FW plexes. Revert exploration back to 2011 mechanics.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#96 - 2015-11-24 20:51:48 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:


Hisec was nerfed previously with the removal of L5s in hisec, and moving them exclusively to lowsec. Did this cause the desired effect?


Don't tell me you're one of those people who don't understand that lvl 5 missions in high sec was a bug. CCP didn't move them out of high sec to get people to move, the fix a bug that disallowed them in high sec, because they were never designed to be in high sec the 1st place. They said this over and over again when they fixed the bug.

Quote:
If it was me, I'd want CCP to remove Incursions from Hisec. Lowsec and Nullsec only. Increase the reward multiplier for doing mission in lower security space. Fix FW missions so you can not do missions in a stealth bomber. Make ships equipped with warp stabs unable to capture FW plexes. Revert exploration back to 2011 mechanics.


I agree with most of that except removing incursions from high sec. They are good content, they are just to damn farmable. I hope Drifer Incursions replace them.

Sov null has no mission agents, we should not have to rely on far away NPC null mission agents to live. The onyl thing needing changing in sov null is anoms need to not be afkable, other than that, the income you get from them is fine.

Close the 'bltizing loopholes' in high sec (and all sec) missioning, fix incursions, nerfbat FW missions and make null anoms un-afkable so if anom runners want isk they have to actually play. That's what my perfect PVE scene right there.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#97 - 2015-11-24 22:09:14 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:


Hisec was nerfed previously with the removal of L5s in hisec, and moving them exclusively to lowsec. Did this cause the desired effect?


Don't tell me you're one of those people who don't understand that lvl 5 missions in high sec was a bug. CCP didn't move them out of high sec to get people to move, the fix a bug that disallowed them in high sec, because they were never designed to be in high sec the 1st place. They said this over and over again when they fixed the bug.

Quote:
If it was me, I'd want CCP to remove Incursions from Hisec. Lowsec and Nullsec only. Increase the reward multiplier for doing mission in lower security space. Fix FW missions so you can not do missions in a stealth bomber. Make ships equipped with warp stabs unable to capture FW plexes. Revert exploration back to 2011 mechanics.


I agree with most of that except removing incursions from high sec. They are good content, they are just to damn farmable. I hope Drifer Incursions replace them.

Sov null has no mission agents, we should not have to rely on far away NPC null mission agents to live. The onyl thing needing changing in sov null is anoms need to not be afkable, other than that, the income you get from them is fine.

Close the 'bltizing loopholes' in high sec (and all sec) missioning, fix incursions, nerfbat FW missions and make null anoms un-afkable so if anom runners want isk they have to actually play. That's what my perfect PVE scene right there.


See, Sov null should have some option to have mission agents in the new Citadel city.

Sansha Incursions being replaced by Drifters would be ideal. Superweapon and all.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#98 - 2015-11-24 22:09:47 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:


Of course, the solution is to nerf hisec income; because no one who lives in null wants to actually put some effort into making null look attractive again. Nullies just want to take the easy path and nerf hisec because it works better for them.


If you had a problem with your car's battery, would you fix it (replace the battery) or would you work on every other part of the car that wasn't the battery.

False premise/straw man.


Denial-ism (self interested denial-ism at that).

The interesting thing about this little fantasy scenario you've created for yourself where I'm this big bad evil self interested bad guy is that it falls apart when you try and explain why I would go to all the trouble to write a guide and to help people to get the most out of Hi-Sec. According to you, if it's really such a bad thing, wouldn't it be in your interest to get as many people to 'abuse' lv4 missions? That should get CCP on it pronto right? Not to mention the more people that do what I do the lower my own profits. But then these little fantasy worlds do tend to break down when scrutinized.

Not to mention all the other issues you refuse to face that I've brought up. But that's neither here nor there I guess. I await with bated breath what insult you'll throw at me next. Maybe something with a fascism slant to it this time. Those are always good.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2015-11-24 22:34:00 UTC
OK ... putting aside the whole 200 mill/hr in L4 missions versus xxx mill in lvl5 with a carrier etc discussions that go on ad nauseum.

How would making L4 missions impossible to run solo or blitz or eliminating Sansha incursions from highsec or for that matter any other reduction in highsec income increase the income of someone else ratting in null ?
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#100 - 2015-11-24 22:45:10 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
OK ... putting aside the whole 200 mill/hr in L4 missions versus xxx mill in lvl5 with a carrier etc discussions that go on ad nauseum.

How would making L4 missions impossible to run solo or blitz or eliminating Sansha incursions from highsec or for that matter any other reduction in highsec income increase the income of someone else ratting in null ?


It doesn't it just makes them feel more superior.