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[December] Module Tiericide - Warp Disruption Field Generators

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Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#321 - 2015-11-22 01:29:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Your counters are misguided. If it were that easy it wouldnt be an issue and your still missing the point. Its not about struggling its about a class/fit that needs a more appropriate counter. Hics are designed to catch things. This change makes them viable at doing so in lowsec. Back on the subject of the actual thread, anything that forces ppl to actually stay and fight is a good thing.

My counters are tried and tested, and I never said it was easy, but then it shouldn't be fighting a BC in a frigate. But no matter, I am happy if you overlook this as it means more easy targets who don't fully understand the PvP mechanics.

But anyway to the point of the thread, as for forcing people to stay and fight, what will actually happen as pointed out and as evidenced from tests on Singularity is that the HIC will kite you at range relatively risk free until either he kills you or backup arrives.

Then your counters are tried and tested against poorly fitted bc's for the job. Keeping you held down until others can get on target is kinda the point. Interceptors, interdictors and hics all serve that specific purpose.

I'll just say that a single svipul can very easily single handedly hold down any BC if you know what you are doing, the only real problem will be ECM. The same logic can easily be applied to a standard frigate although it is more risky. Like I said, BCs are very weak against smaller ships in the current meta. It is against cruisers and above where they start to become more useful.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#322 - 2015-11-22 01:34:34 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Your counters are misguided. If it were that easy it wouldnt be an issue and your still missing the point. Its not about struggling its about a class/fit that needs a more appropriate counter. Hics are designed to catch things. This change makes them viable at doing so in lowsec. Back on the subject of the actual thread, anything that forces ppl to actually stay and fight is a good thing.

My counters are tried and tested, and I never said it was easy, but then it shouldn't be fighting a BC in a frigate. But no matter, I am happy if you overlook this as it means more easy targets who don't fully understand the PvP mechanics.

But anyway to the point of the thread, as for forcing people to stay and fight, what will actually happen as pointed out and as evidenced from tests on Singularity is that the HIC will kite you at range relatively risk free until either he kills you or backup arrives.

Then your counters are tried and tested against poorly fitted bc's for the job. Keeping you held down until others can get on target is kinda the point. Interceptors, interdictors and hics all serve that specific purpose.

I'll just say that a single svipul can very easily single handedly hold down any BC if you know what you are doing, the only real problem will be ECM. The same logic can easily be applied to a standard frigate although it is more risky. Like I said, BCs are very weak against smaller ships in the current meta. It is against cruisers and above where they start to become more useful.


As it should be...

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#323 - 2015-11-22 01:39:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Moac Tor wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Your counters are misguided. If it were that easy it wouldnt be an issue and your still missing the point. Its not about struggling its about a class/fit that needs a more appropriate counter. Hics are designed to catch things. This change makes them viable at doing so in lowsec. Back on the subject of the actual thread, anything that forces ppl to actually stay and fight is a good thing.

My counters are tried and tested, and I never said it was easy, but then it shouldn't be fighting a BC in a frigate. But no matter, I am happy if you overlook this as it means more easy targets who don't fully understand the PvP mechanics.

But anyway to the point of the thread, as for forcing people to stay and fight, what will actually happen as pointed out and as evidenced from tests on Singularity is that the HIC will kite you at range relatively risk free until either he kills you or backup arrives.

Then your counters are tried and tested against poorly fitted bc's for the job. Keeping you held down until others can get on target is kinda the point. Interceptors, interdictors and hics all serve that specific purpose.

I'll just say that a single svipul can very easily single handedly hold down any BC if you know what you are doing, the only real problem will be ECM. The same logic can easily be applied to a standard frigate although it is more risky. Like I said, BCs are very weak against smaller ships in the current meta. It is against cruisers and above where they start to become more useful.

A single svipul in scram range will be double neuted, double webbed and dead or if its a 10mn fit will be forced off grid if it can do so before it hits zero cap. Just ask ole stitch there, he's been posting in this thread and enjoys flying bc's in lowsec to great effectiveness. In fact i have an onyx sitting in hanger that I mistakenly fit out months ago specifically to catch his bc's before realizing that the scripted disruptor doesnt shut down mjd's.

Just to reiterate, I'm not talking about standard fleet fit bc's. I'm talking about fits that are very specifically setup to blap the crap out of targets of opportunity and escape with little risk of getting held down long enough to die. Stealth bombers, stabbed dessis and slippery fit bc's are the norm for mission runners and plex farmers in fw and anything that will make catching them easier is a +1 in my book.

Daemun of Khanid
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#324 - 2015-11-22 01:59:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
FT Diomedes wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
I'll just say that a single svipul can very easily single handedly hold down any BC if you know what you are doing, the only real problem will be ECM. The same logic can easily be applied to a standard frigate although it is more risky. Like I said, BCs are very weak against smaller ships in the current meta. It is against cruisers and above where they start to become more useful.


As it should be...

Exactly, I've got no problem with frigates and smaller ships being strong against BCs in the current meta, because BCs excel against cruisers and above. They slot into place quite nicely at the moment.

Daemun Khanid wrote:
A single svipul in scram range will be double neuted, double webbed and dead or if its a 10mn fit will be forced off grid if it can do so before it hits zero cap. Just ask ole stitch there, he's been posting in this thread and enjoys flying bc's in lowsec to great effectiveness. In fact i have an onyx sitting in hanger that I mistakenly fit out months ago specifically to catch his bc's before realizing that the scripted disruptor doesnt shut down mjd's.


If your specifically gearing a BC to fight frigates your gimping your fit, they don't have many native strengths against smaller ships and can very easily be pinned down. Sure you can get a semi effective anti frigate BC, like everything else in eve if you gimp your fit you can make it good at one specific task, although it is going to suck against everything else and still won't be the best ship for the job vs frigates either.

On the other hand you could be complaining about navy BCs which are slightly more geared towards damage application vs smaller targets, but that is a trait of the navy line which I think most people are happy with.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#325 - 2015-11-22 02:07:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
You simply seem to fail to grasp the entire point and dont have experience with slippery fits. A fit isnt gimped when its doing precisely what its meant to do. I presume you are an alt because if you are even remotely trying to weigh in on the matter w 14 kills to your name your opinion certainly doesnt count for much.

Daemun of Khanid
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#326 - 2015-11-22 02:26:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Daemun Khanid wrote:
You simply seem to fail to grasp the entire point and dont have experience with slippery fits. A fit isnt gimped when its doing precisely what its meant to do.

I have actually fought and killed plenty of slippery fits, I wouldn't consider any BC to be very slippery.

Try fighting a phantasm or nano nightmare with defensive webs and scram, or T3 with fuel catalyst and oversized AB and you'll see what a proper slippery fit is. BCs are one of the least capable classes of ship to be able to fit as you suggest. They don't get that much benefit from an oversized AB, and are natively slow, and generally lack midslots to fit defensive web and scrams especially if you fit MJD.

Yes those fits are tough to fight, but there are plenty of counters, and that method of fighting is hardly limited to BCs, in fact BCs are particularly bad at it.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#327 - 2015-11-22 02:35:22 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
You simply seem to fail to grasp the entire point and dont have experience with slippery fits. A fit isnt gimped when its doing precisely what its meant to do.

I have actually fought and killed plenty of slippery fits, I wouldn't consider any BC to be very slippery.

Try fighting a phantasm or nano nightmare with defensive webs and scram, or T3 with fuel catalyst and oversized AB and you'll see what a proper slippery fit is. BCs are one of the least capable classes of ship to be able to fit as you suggest. They don't get that much benefit from an oversized AB, and are natively slow, and generally lack midslots to fit defensive web and scrams especially if you fit MJD.

Yes those fits are tough to fight, but there are plenty of counters, and that method of fighting is hardly limited to BCs, in fact BCs are particularly bad at it.


And a bc will achieve the same thing at a tiny fraction of the cost. A ship that can apply 700 dps to anything in web range (frigs included) and mjd out as soon as anything threatening lands on grid are a pita. Oversided abs are used on some fits but for the most part its just about letting your target come to you, nuking them off the field then hitting the mjd and jumping to a safe.

Daemun of Khanid
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#328 - 2015-11-22 12:48:32 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Your counters are misguided. If it were that easy it wouldnt be an issue and your still missing the point. Its not about struggling its about a class/fit that needs a more appropriate counter. Hics are designed to catch things. This change makes them viable at doing so in lowsec. Back on the subject of the actual thread, anything that forces ppl to actually stay and fight is a good thing.

My counters are tried and tested, and I never said it was easy, but then it shouldn't be fighting a BC in a frigate. But no matter, I am happy if you overlook this as it means more easy targets who don't fully understand the PvP mechanics.

But anyway to the point of the thread, as for forcing people to stay and fight, what will actually happen as pointed out and as evidenced from tests on Singularity is that the HIC will kite you at range relatively risk free until either he kills you or backup arrives.

Then your counters are tried and tested against poorly fitted bc's for the job. Keeping you held down until others can get on target is kinda the point. Interceptors, interdictors and hics all serve that specific purpose.

I'll just say that a single svipul can very easily single handedly hold down any BC if you know what you are doing, the only real problem will be ECM. The same logic can easily be applied to a standard frigate although it is more risky. Like I said, BCs are very weak against smaller ships in the current meta. It is against cruisers and above where they start to become more useful.

A single svipul in scram range will be double neuted, double webbed and dead or if its a 10mn fit will be forced off grid if it can do so before it hits zero cap. Just ask ole stitch there, he's been posting in this thread and enjoys flying bc's in lowsec to great effectiveness. In fact i have an onyx sitting in hanger that I mistakenly fit out months ago specifically to catch his bc's before realizing that the scripted disruptor doesnt shut down mjd's.

Just to reiterate, I'm not talking about standard fleet fit bc's. I'm talking about fits that are very specifically setup to blap the crap out of targets of opportunity and escape with little risk of getting held down long enough to die. Stealth bombers, stabbed dessis and slippery fit bc's are the norm for mission runners and plex farmers in fw and anything that will make catching them easier is a +1 in my book.


My fits were designed to counter your frig gangs that were risk averse and just wanted to kite. I was forcing you to commit to me, by coming in to scram. You had options available to counter this, but insisted of bringing more disruptors than scrams. You could counter me a number of ways, and in fact did. Neuts, being the biggest counter because most of those fits had no cap boosters.

You could have brought an arazu with a scram, but instead i'd get lach's with a point. You in fact quite frequently would bring out a rook to counter my lone unlinked BC with your gang of 10 guys or more (which occasionally had links). I would then bring out my fleet phoon with over 80 SS to counter your rook.

Those fits i made specifically for survival in lowsec against the blob. This was the era of almost every gang in LS having a garmur/orthrus. There is no countering or slingshotting a garmur/orthrus when you're in a BC, so MJD was the only viable counter so i could kill a couple scram tackle and leave.

Sorry, if i didn't just sit there and let you kill me. The tools were available to counter me, but your corp insisted on bringing more and more things with points or kitey ships like nomens. So, i find it ironic that you're saying my fits were risk averse, when they were fit specifically with countering your risk averse gangs that were all kitey frigs/cruisers with 1 or 2 scram tackle thrown in. Its not my fault your gang did not bring more hard tackle.

The other reason I made those fits, is they would still survive against linked ships. You and me both know that there are tons of people in LS using links on everything. Hell i just fought a linked comet the last time i was in LS. The MJD/AB BC's i made were a direct counter to those people, and the best i could manage without myself getting links.

Now, i'm not horribly opposed to the HIC change, except for the fact they will be on every gate camp, and there is no escaping that. Sure, one lands on field, OK, time to make sure i don't get within 40km of you. I warp through a gate with 1 on the other side, well i'm boned. Can't MJD, can't MWD, if i had an AB i'd just get blobbed by the rest of the gang. I would expect dead terrorists to start fielding these immediately once their released. So i guess have fun dealing with their camps in that area.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#329 - 2015-11-22 14:06:03 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
My fits were designed to counter your frig gangs that were risk averse and just wanted to kite. I was forcing you to commit to me, by coming in to scram.

But a BC should not have any options and should be forced to just sit their and get pinned by a 10 man risk averse frigate gang... Well luckily now they can if they bring a HIC.

No more MJDing BCs that force an opponent to come into scram range, and no more epic solo battleship videos from the likes of skilled pilots such as Big Miker and others.

Normality resumed and and we can get back to the relaxing and unskilled business of risk averse long range kitey gangs.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#330 - 2015-11-23 00:03:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Don't get me wrong stitch, it wasnt an insult. I was just noting that you used the slippery bc's to great effectiveness. As for our fits against you we always tried to bring scrams because we knew you had mjd, you just ussually killed the tackle before we could get the dps on field. Thats when I started bringing the ecm to keep the tackle safe. I have to say though we never have gangs of 10. I wish we did. More commonly we fly 4-5 and none of us have links. I'm also the only person in the group I fly with that flies ships other than Amarr. All my fleet mates are PIE loyalists and have strict rules about only flying golden fleet. I'm sure you dealt w ppl that did, but it wasnt us. Nothing but respect, at least you come looking for fights.

Daemun of Khanid
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#331 - 2015-11-23 14:44:06 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Don't get me wrong stitch, it wasnt an insult. I was just noting that you used the slippery bc's to great effectiveness. As for our fits against you we always tried to bring scrams because we knew you had mjd, you just ussually killed the tackle before we could get the dps on field. Thats when I started bringing the ecm to keep the tackle safe. I have to say though we never have gangs of 10. I wish we did. More commonly we fly 4-5 and none of us have links. I'm also the only person in the group I fly with that flies ships other than Amarr. All my fleet mates are PIE loyalists and have strict rules about only flying golden fleet. I'm sure you dealt w ppl that did, but it wasnt us. Nothing but respect, at least you come looking for fights.


Understood, but you are saying these super scram HICs are required to catch my "risk averse" fits, when they were made directly to counter risk averse gangs. You had to commit heavy scram tackle to hold me, not 1-2 scram tackle. Bringing another BC would do the trick in most cases. Infact a prophecy would be perfect, as their brick tanked and you could slap a few medium neuts on it and id be done. Instead i'd get t3ds or t1 frigs, and yes it would absolutely murder those ships as it was designed to do.

Basically, it would be like me complaining about a gang who had a curse, that their curse was too effective at its role. So therefore we should get a highslot module to turn off neuts.

This change is not a requirement to catch the slippery BCs. Your gang's unwillingness to ship into something outside of amarr RP was the reason you struggled against my fits.

My apologies in regards to gang size, maybe your specific corp had 4-5 guys, but the other amaar guys in arzad would join in, as i know i was dodging 10-15 guys when i was in my phoon a few times. Or if i killed 1-2 WT in ezzara id get 5-6 more guys who would show up. So it wasnt uncommon for me to be trying to avoid and separate all of you.

Now, that being said, in a non gate camp scenario, i think this HICs will be a good addition and add new tactics both in a solo and gang role. But the oppressiveness of a 30km+ scram on a gate camp is going to make roaming/living in LS an absolute nightmare. You and I both know the pirates that live in that area will abuse the hell out of it.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#332 - 2015-11-23 15:03:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
This change is not a requirement to catch the slippery BCs. Your gang's unwillingness to ship into something outside of amarr RP was the reason you struggled against my fits.

The irony of Daemun's point is that this change won't actually have any affect whatsoever on 'true' slippery fits, in fact they will become much more dominant in the current meta as an oversized afterburner is not affected by the HIC long scram.

Ships like your anti frigate BC which as you pointed out is relatively easy to counter will be replaced with ships such with oversized and bonused afterburners which are MUCH more difficult to counter.

Although the truth is most people do not understand PvP mechanics well enough to use slippery fits and will probably just bring an 'easy mode' HIC with long scram and MWD.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#333 - 2015-11-23 15:59:09 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
This change is not a requirement to catch the slippery BCs. Your gang's unwillingness to ship into something outside of amarr RP was the reason you struggled against my fits.

The irony of Daemun's point is that this change won't actually have any affect whatsoever on 'true' slippery fits, in fact they will become much more dominant in the current meta as an oversized afterburner is not affected by the HIC long scram.

Ships like your anti frigate BC which as you pointed out is relatively easy to counter will be replaced with ships such with oversized and bonused afterburners which are MUCH more difficult to counter.

Although the truth is most people do not understand PvP mechanics well enough to use slippery fits and will probably just bring an 'easy mode' HIC with long scram and MWD.


You still just dont get it. The bc's are just one example. Obviously a hic isnt going to be the answer to every slippery ship that comes along, the point is it gives the hic an actual use in lowsec. As right now it has absolutely none. And lowsec is crawling with stabbed farmers, and a ship that can help stop them is a good thing. Personally I'd just prefer that ccp lock stealth bombers out of missions and lock anything with stabs out of plexes but I dont see that happening so a 100point scram will at least give us another tool to work with.

As for these things camping gates I'm not particularly concerned. The only ships at risk will be solo mjd bc mission farmers. A decent gate camp already has enough points and webs to make escape impossible so a hic doesnt change anything. It just means a single cruiser can keep you from activating your mjd from longer range until another ship w scram can get in range. Any decent gang will be sending a scout ahead so for normal groups it doesnt have any impact.

Theres nothing about your fit that serves to counter risk adverse gains stitch. A risk adverse pilot doesnt try to kill a bc w a frigate, they upship to archons. Lol.... I laugh but its true. All your fit does is serve as bait for wt's that have the nerve to go after any enemy they can find and then try to pick off the smaller ships while trying to preserve your chance at escape. Any time we brought out a bc you simply left field and warped to a safe. If you really wanted to catch "risk adverse kiters" you be in a solo frig catching kiters. You get props for coming after fights and forcing us to counter your specific fit but in the end its still a bait ship that relies on unwary targets charging in on you unaware of your fit.

Daemun of Khanid
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#334 - 2015-11-23 16:26:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Daemun Khanid wrote:
You still just dont get it. The bc's are just one example.

Which part of his fit is very easy to counter already without a HIC did you not understand?

Stitch even says this himself, all you needed to do was bring a prophecy or harbinger if your amarr loyalist's and you would have destroyed him. Heck he didn't even have any cap defense so you could have just bought a curse, pilgrim or sentinel, once his cap is gone he cannot activate the MJD or much else.

Seriously, BCs are not particularly powerful at the moment, and the MJD is just a small tool in the BC and BS arsenal that gives them a couple of get outs in edge scenarios such as kiting frigates, in a lot of situations it is useless and not worth the mid slot. It is hardly the all powerful module that requires a direct hard counter.

The whole gist of the argument has been that this will adversely affect BSs and BCs, all the other stuff you mentioned is irrelevant to the point which myself and others are pointing out, so it is not that we don't get it, it is that we are looking at it from a different angle.

The kind of ships that deserve more to be hit are the type of kitey frigates that you fly and they will also be hit hard by the HIC long scram. If you think taking on a BC is difficult wait until your gang goes against one of these HIC's.

Again you probably will claim we are being stupid and don't know what we are talking about without changing your blinkered mindset. Your too fixated on your frigates and not looking at the wider picture here.

Daemun Khanid wrote:
the point is it gives the hic an actual use in lowsec.

I can agree with you here, the HIC needs some changes, but the point about the 37.5km scram and turning into a solo monster is where we disagree.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#335 - 2015-11-23 16:30:22 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:


As for these things camping gates I'm not particularly concerned. The only ships at risk will be solo mjd bc mission farmers. A decent gate camp already has enough points and webs to make escape impossible so a hic doesnt change anything. It just means a single cruiser can keep you from activating your mjd from longer range until another ship w scram can get in range. Any decent gang will be sending a scout ahead so for normal groups it doesnt have any impact.

Theres nothing about your fit that serves to counter risk adverse gains stitch. A risk adverse pilot doesnt try to kill a bc w a frigate, they upship to archons. Lol.... I laugh but its true. All your fit does is serve as bait for wt's that have the nerve to go after any enemy they can find and then try to pick off the smaller ships while trying to preserve your chance at escape. Any time we brought out a bc you simply left field and warped to a safe. If you really wanted to catch "risk adverse kiters" you be in a solo frig catching kiters. You get props for coming after fights and forcing us to counter your specific fit but in the end its still a bait ship that relies on unwary targets charging in on you unaware of your fit.



I think you are vastly underestimating what groups will do with these HICs. A linked proteus/lachesis (with all skills at 5) with pimp scram will be around 27km IIRC. A HIC with a t1 WDFG and HIC4 will be 28-29km. A sebod HIC with a gang could easily catch frigs/cruisers. This wont affect ONLY BCs, but anything that isnt an inty or cloaky.

I could dodge gate camps fairly easily in my BC. Activate MJD immediately on decloak and OH mwd away from gang and in most cases all their points and long webs meant nothing. Ive even done this to WT camps. Ive also never seen mission BCs, only stealth bombers.

My fit doesnt directly counter risk averse gangs. It forces them to come into scram range if they want a kill. Now itll be nomens and HICs. So instead of actually committing to a fight, you will still continue flying kitey gangs, but bring a HIC along so you dont have to commit. Again, being risk averse.

You would bring a BC, but again there would be 5-10 guys (maybe not all your corp, but part of the fleet) and a falcon with that "1 BC". As mentioned previously, you'll have to forgive me if i dont just offer myself as a free kill to a gang that outnumbers me, has EWAR and might be using links. You could have had 2-3 scram frigs with webs and once they landed, warped a BC on top. Or a navy aug. Which you guys used against me at one point which actually killed me with cause it was a tanky SOB with a scram.

Having a 30km+ scram does nothing but reinforce risk averse kitey meta. Especially against larger ships. The MJD "slippery BC" was meant to bring ships in to brawl which is what BCs are good at. At the same time giving me the option to MJD away from all the cancerous garmurs/orthrus that were around. There is nothing worse than being plinked away by 150dps for 3min in a BC with no way to counter.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#336 - 2015-11-23 18:09:18 UTC
I just finished training HIC this week-end (started before those announcement) so can I look forward to having a WTFPWNMOBILE or do I still have to know how to play?
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#337 - 2015-11-23 18:14:29 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
I just finished training HIC this week-end (started before those announcement) so can I look forward to having a WTFPWNMOBILE or do I still have to know how to play?


As long as you dont go ramming people with your 30km+ scram, you should be ok. I too have trained into HICs (following the announcements). Might as well abuse it, like everyone else.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Rmage Gemmell
Unrelated Intentions
#338 - 2015-11-23 18:29:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Rmage Gemmell
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Got to test out the devoter on SiSi and i believe its going to be a beast. 500+ dps on something with ultimate range control is pretty nasty. I look forward to abusing it on tranquility.

Had a geddon neut me while using the WDFG and didnt seem like much of an issue out at uber scram range. Single medium cap booster was more than enough to keep tackle and rep running. Since neuts have falloff now, its not all that hard to keep them in falloff and basically brush off a medium neuts worth of discharge.

So the whole neuting a HIC out as a counter doesnt seem viable unless youre flying a curse or bhaal. Wont be **** i can do in say a BC. Cant MJD away from it, cant neut it, wont have the dps to kill it at that range. So short of putting 100mn ABs on everything id say bigger ship roaming will die.

Welcome to the new era of Instalock HIC gate campers. Gate camping buff, big ship nerf (cause they really needed it, you know). Combined with the MJD destroyer, these things will be everywhere.


Pretty much.

This is 90% going on TQ. When CCP puts it on the forum like this and does not post for a while, it's a passive-aggressive way of saying 'it's coming, talk to the hand'.

12 months or so after it goes live, they will make a 'focused group' to make it seem that something is done. :)

Started training HICS too.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#339 - 2015-11-23 19:18:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:


As for these things camping gates I'm not particularly concerned. The only ships at risk will be solo mjd bc mission farmers. A decent gate camp already has enough points and webs to make escape impossible so a hic doesnt change anything. It just means a single cruiser can keep you from activating your mjd from longer range until another ship w scram can get in range. Any decent gang will be sending a scout ahead so for normal groups it doesnt have any impact.

Theres nothing about your fit that serves to counter risk adverse gains stitch. A risk adverse pilot doesnt try to kill a bc w a frigate, they upship to archons. Lol.... I laugh but its true. All your fit does is serve as bait for wt's that have the nerve to go after any enemy they can find and then try to pick off the smaller ships while trying to preserve your chance at escape. Any time we brought out a bc you simply left field and warped to a safe. If you really wanted to catch "risk adverse kiters" you be in a solo frig catching kiters. You get props for coming after fights and forcing us to counter your specific fit but in the end its still a bait ship that relies on unwary targets charging in on you unaware of your fit.



I think you are vastly underestimating what groups will do with these HICs. A linked proteus/lachesis (with all skills at 5) with pimp scram will be around 27km IIRC. A HIC with a t1 WDFG and HIC4 will be 28-29km. A sebod HIC with a gang could easily catch frigs/cruisers. This wont affect ONLY BCs, but anything that isnt an inty or cloaky.

I could dodge gate camps fairly easily in my BC. Activate MJD immediately on decloak and OH mwd away from gang and in most cases all their points and long webs meant nothing. Ive even done this to WT camps. Ive also never seen mission BCs, only stealth bombers.

My fit doesnt directly counter risk averse gangs. It forces them to come into scram range if they want a kill. Now itll be nomens and HICs. So instead of actually committing to a fight, you will still continue flying kitey gangs, but bring a HIC along so you dont have to commit. Again, being risk averse.

You would bring a BC, but again there would be 5-10 guys (maybe not all your corp, but part of the fleet) and a falcon with that "1 BC". As mentioned previously, you'll have to forgive me if i dont just offer myself as a free kill to a gang that outnumbers me, has EWAR and might be using links. You could have had 2-3 scram frigs with webs and once they landed, warped a BC on top. Or a navy aug. Which you guys used against me at one point which actually killed me with cause it was a tanky SOB with a scram.

Having a 30km+ scram does nothing but reinforce risk averse kitey meta. Especially against larger ships. The MJD "slippery BC" was meant to bring ships in to brawl which is what BCs are good at. At the same time giving me the option to MJD away from all the cancerous garmurs/orthrus that were around. There is nothing worse than being plinked away by 150dps for 3min in a BC with no way to counter.


You forget to mention that you also sit at long range (100-150k) off beacon in large plexes in a safed direction so that anything like the tanky maller or prophecy cant get to you before you can escape. Which is why we had to start using mwd scram frigates with rook support. A hic with long scram means we have a chance of landing a larger ship on grid to tackle you before you can escape without having to use a speedy frig with ecm for defense.

And hey, if you want to stop risk adverse kitey frigs... here's your new toy. Don't need that MJD BC anymore if you use a HIC. Instead of worrying about how something new will effect what you are accustomed to flying think about how you can use what's new to accomplish what you want. In all honestly though, cancerous garmurs/orthrus? I see maybe 1-2 garmurs a week and almost never see an orthrus unless it's a massive neut gang throwing bling faction cruisers around. GreasePayne's linked slicer is a more common and dangerous threat than lowsec garmurs.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:
"I think you are vastly underestimating what groups will do with these HICs. A linked proteus/lachesis (with all skills at 5) with pimp scram will be around 27km IIRC. A HIC with a t1 WDFG and HIC4 will be 28-29km. A sebod HIC with a gang could easily catch frigs/cruisers. This wont affect ONLY BCs, but anything that isnt an inty or cloaky. "


Which is why you use the tools at your disposal to gather intel on gate camps before you go jumping around with impunity. Chat channels, dotlan, in game maps and scouts.There's nothing in the FW rule book that says a warzone should be able to be safely traversed by a solo pilot who can't be bothered to watch where he's going. I hate gate camps as much as the next guy but in reality they aren't that hard to avoid if you aren't lazy about it. I'd rather jump into a gate camp full of hic's than a load of smart bombers any day.

How does a hic reinforce a kite meta? If anything it counters a kite meta by giving you something to reach out and shut down kiters with.

Daemun of Khanid
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#340 - 2015-11-23 19:31:29 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
You still just dont get it. The bc's are just one example.

Which part of his fit is very easy to counter already without a HIC did you not understand?

Stitch even says this himself, all you needed to do was bring a prophecy or harbinger if your amarr loyalist's and you would have destroyed him. Heck he didn't even have any cap defense so you could have just bought a curse, pilgrim or sentinel, once his cap is gone he cannot activate the MJD or much else.

Seriously, BCs are not particularly powerful at the moment, and the MJD is just a small tool in the BC and BS arsenal that gives them a couple of get outs in edge scenarios such as kiting frigates, in a lot of situations it is useless and not worth the mid slot. It is hardly the all powerful module that requires a direct hard counter.

The whole gist of the argument has been that this will adversely affect BSs and BCs, all the other stuff you mentioned is irrelevant to the point which myself and others are pointing out, so it is not that we don't get it, it is that we are looking at it from a different angle.

The kind of ships that deserve more to be hit are the type of kitey frigates that you fly and they will also be hit hard by the HIC long scram. If you think taking on a BC is difficult wait until your gang goes against one of these HIC's.

Again you probably will claim we are being stupid and don't know what we are talking about without changing your blinkered mindset. Your too fixated on your frigates and not looking at the wider picture here.

Daemun Khanid wrote:
the point is it gives the hic an actual use in lowsec.

I can agree with you here, the HIC needs some changes, but the point about the 37.5km scram and turning into a solo monster is where we disagree.


Again, you don't understand the situation and throw out counters that are not effective. As I mentioned in the previous post, a BC can position himself so that large ships that would be an effective counter (like the curse) cannot reach him before he can escape. Hence the need for fast tackle frigates... but it's pointless trying to explain it to you because you think that developing a counter is as easy as EFT. Tactics are the bigger challenge and a long scram hic will provide a new tool as a tactical counter. Will it be super dangerous for kitey frigs? Absolutely, and I'm all for that. Not only does it provide a tool for controlling the Kite meta it also provides a tool that can be used in the place of the previously used kite ships. I personally HATE that speed is essentially king, but it quite simply is, and something like a long range scram to counter that trend is a step in the right direction imo. The whole oversized AB fit is an issue unto itself and I would REALLY like to see CCP limit prop mods to the appropriate ship classes. There are numerous situations where a oversized ab fit ship simply cannot be beat/held down for the kill in even odds.

Daemun of Khanid