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[news] Founding of Upwell Consortium announced by leading...
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Arrendis
TK Corp
#21 - 2015-11-20 09:42:54 UTC
First, I simply have to say:

Elmund Egivand wrote:

If an Empire employs the Imperium to do their bidding they risk a serious PR clusterfuck


I see what you did there. Bravo, sir. As a sincere appreciator of clever wordplay, I could not let that go unacknowledged.

Ibrahim Tash-Murkon wrote:

Savage and sadistic? Yes. Dishonest. No, strictly speaking.


And yet again, I feel compelled to point out the same truth I spoke in the other thread: we have no more or less a percentage of the 'savage and sadistic' than any other group of capsuleers. Ours are simply more organized, and more visible because, well, there are a lot of us. And even our savages, we do try to ameliorate a bit - you'll note, please, that none of the Ministry of Love's focused campaigns (the so-called 'Burn Jita' and 'Burn Amarr' events) ever went unheralded. Advanced warning was given in every case - warning that any industrialist or freight-hauler could use to avoid any difficulty whatsoever by simply not hauling during the affected seventy-two hours.

Is it a perfect solution? No. Is it supposed to make it all ok? I wouldn't think so. But it should still be taken into account.

However, on to the crux of the issue:

Elmund Egivand wrote:
Most I can speak of is perception on the Imperium. As you might know, capsuleers seem to enjoy creating or appointing a boogeyman, a villainous overlord or just plain someone to blame for everything that has gone wrong in their lives.

[. . .]

Hence why I mentioned it would be difficult for the Imperium to be chosen over Mordu's Legion, which didn't drag around that kind of baggage.


The sad fact is, if you mention Mordu's Legion to most of the capsuleers of New Eden, they'll be labelled 'pirates', because the Barghest, Orthrus, and Garmur are listed in Jita 4-4 under 'Pirate Faction' in the Battleship, Cruiser, and Frigate listings.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2015-11-20 09:53:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Arrendis wrote:


The sad fact is, if you mention Mordu's Legion to most of the capsuleers of New Eden, they'll be labelled 'pirates', because the Barghest, Orthrus, and Garmur are listed in Jita 4-4 under 'Pirate Faction' in the Battleship, Cruiser, and Frigate listings.


But the boogeymen would be the pilots of the ships and the ships themselves rather than the Legion proper. Also, lesser evil and other nonsense.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#23 - 2015-11-20 17:27:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Arrendis wrote:


The sad fact is, if you mention Mordu's Legion to most of the capsuleers of New Eden, they'll be labelled 'pirates', because the Barghest, Orthrus, and Garmur are listed in Jita 4-4 under 'Pirate Faction' in the Battleship, Cruiser, and Frigate listings.


But the boogeymen would be the pilots of the ships and the ships themselves rather than the Legion proper. Also, lesser evil and other nonsense.


Listing the Legion's designs under 'pirate' has the effect, for most capsuleers, of rendering them exactly the same kind of boogeymen as the Guristas, Blood Raiders, or Serpentis. For those people, 'The Legion proper'... would be who, if not the individuals who designed and originally flew those hulls?

Like I said, it's sad, but to most people, 'Mordu's Legion' == 'pirates'. Heck, most of them probably can't tell the difference between Mordu's Legion and the Guristas, other than maybe ship types. The existence of Mordu's Angels, who are pirates, doesn't help.

Also, when you're looking for experts and ways to develop infrastructure for deep space that's intended to stand up to the rigors of being shot at (and if it's in space, it needs to stand up to being shot at), why would you ever settle for the lesser of two evils? Go for the gold standard. Who else can really put whatever Upwell designs through its paces the way we can?
Ibrahim Tash-Murkon
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#24 - 2015-11-20 20:27:39 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
And yet again, I feel compelled to point out the same truth I spoke in the other thread: we have no more or less a percentage of the 'savage and sadistic' than any other group of capsuleers. Ours are simply more organized, and more visible because, well, there are a lot of us. And even our savages, we do try to ameliorate a bit - you'll note, please, that none of the Ministry of Love's focused campaigns (the so-called 'Burn Jita' and 'Burn Amarr' events) ever went unheralded. Advanced warning was given in every case - warning that any industrialist or freight-hauler could use to avoid any difficulty whatsoever by simply not hauling during the affected seventy-two hours.

Is it a perfect solution? No. Is it supposed to make it all ok? I wouldn't think so. But it should still be taken into account.


Pointing out that others are violent does not excuse, lessen, or in anyway change the violence of your own cohorts.

"I give you the destiny of Faith, and you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens: Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given." - Book of Reclaiming 22:13
Arrendis
TK Corp
#25 - 2015-11-20 21:06:54 UTC
Ibrahim Tash-Murkon wrote:
Pointing out that others are violent does not excuse, lessen, or in anyway change the violence of your own cohorts.


Nor should it be seen as an attempt to excuse, lessen, or in any way change it. However, if others who are, proportionately, no different from us are going to call us 'savages', then pointing out their hypocrisy is entirely appropriate.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2015-11-22 03:49:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Arrendis, you are avoiding the crux of the topic that is Imperium having a worse reputation for supervillain douchebaggery compared to the Mordu's Legion.

First and foremost, the pirate factions do not make teeth-gnashing headlines the same scale as the Imperium, once known as the CFC. Every so often, they steal a Titan, a Supercarrier, make really powerful ships and the like that causes other capsuleers to go, "Oh. Okay. It happened." On the other hand, the Imperium does things like, "Burn Jita", interdictions, the sort of thing that does, in fact, more visibly directly impact the routines of capsuleers, resulting in them gnashing their teeth and going all "Grr Goons" every time the name 'Imperium' or 'CFC' shows up for any reason.

If you really want to **** someone off, go touch their property. The Imperium has touched many capsuleer properties, much more visibly. The pirate factions haven't really done that much, they are more focused on riling up the feathers of the Big 4. The most that angers capsuleers about the Mordu's Legion will be when they lost their ships to another capsuleer that's flying a Garmur ("That kitey bastard!"). The Imperium? "Grr Goons interdicting Jita, killing my Hulk, blob me to death, kick me out of null, etc".

Considering that capsuleers are a big part of the greasing of engines of space-based whatever, and the shenanigans of the Imperium inspires the great gnashing of teeth in the capsuleer community, I don't think the Big 4 and Concord are particularly keen about hiring the Imperium and cause the capsuleers to froth over their mouth and then shoot the Jita statue or some other silly thing that would probably amount to 'A strike by those dudes with the really big guns and cargo holds'.

So in all likelihood, they would hire Mordu's Legion, who is the next best thing that doesn't cause waves of 'Grr Legion' the same scale as the Imperium does.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2015-11-22 06:22:24 UTC
Is there ever a thread on the IGS that is not derailed by page two?

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#28 - 2015-11-22 06:23:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
Oh, I'm not avoiding it at all. I'm simply saying that if you want to use an inferior service, then the inferior results are completely deserved. And if you want to build and design infrastructure for capsuleer use, then villifying the single largest bloc of your potential customers is probably far more foolish than having a few ignorant reactionaries who never venture into territory where they might have reason to buy capsuleer infrastructure decide they're annoyed at you for who you associate with.

Also, Ayallah, since the discussion is in the larger context of Imperium involvement with the Upwell Consortium, I'm not really sure how you call it a derail.
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