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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#3461 - 2015-11-18 16:27:02 UTC
For the love of all that is good and holy, go read the thread.

False equivalence of structures and modules has been talked to death.

Remember that thing you like to talk about where undocking is consenting to PvP? Now apply that thinking to your cloaked camper.

It's not like anyone is asking for a button to just detonate cloaked ships without any real fight anytime they like, despite the opposite being pretty much the affect of operating in a system with a cloaked camp.

A method of bringing the non-consent to another ship in space is all. Plain and simple. In a POS is supposed to be safe by design to allow assets to accumulate and give residents something to fight over. In a station is supposed to be safe.

In a ship floating in open space is specifically not supposed to be safe. Inflicting loss on the residents from behind a perfect defense is not balanced. Cloaks in their present incarnation are not balanced. Leaving them as is should require a ship with zero weapons and no Cyno. Otherwise they need a way to be hunted, just like every other ship in space.

You aren't owed or entititled in any way to kills of soft targets. It's meant to drive conflict, not just provide kills.

If you can take it as well as dish it out, getting hunted while you are hunting should be no issue. I can see where that would be a problem for a gankbear though.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#3462 - 2015-11-18 17:18:56 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
For the love of all that is good and holy, go read the thread.

False equivalence of structures and modules has been talked to death.

Remember that thing you like to talk about where undocking is consenting to PvP? Now apply that thinking to your cloaked camper.

It's not like anyone is asking for a button to just detonate cloaked ships without any real fight anytime they like, despite the opposite being pretty much the affect of operating in a system with a cloaked camp.

A method of bringing the non-consent to another ship in space is all. Plain and simple. In a POS is supposed to be safe by design to allow assets to accumulate and give residents something to fight over. In a station is supposed to be safe.

In a ship floating in open space is specifically not supposed to be safe. Inflicting loss on the residents from behind a perfect defense is not balanced. Cloaks in their present incarnation are not balanced. Leaving them as is should require a ship with zero weapons and no Cyno. Otherwise they need a way to be hunted, just like every other ship in space.

You aren't owed or entititled in any way to kills of soft targets. It's meant to drive conflict, not just provide kills.

If you can take it as well as dish it out, getting hunted while you are hunting should be no issue. I can see where that would be a problem for a gankbear though.


Cloaks. do. not. inflict. loss.

I asked before, how many ships have killed anyone while they had an active cloak?
Meia Ataru
Starfox Initiative
#3463 - 2015-11-19 01:46:42 UTC
If cloaks do not inflict loss what do they do?

The answer you seem to be looking for is zero, so if that's the case they do nothing, so we can remove them right?

I don't see what you are getting at.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#3464 - 2015-11-19 03:21:41 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
For the love of all that is good and holy, go read the thread.

False equivalence of structures and modules has been talked to death.

Remember that thing you like to talk about where undocking is consenting to PvP? Now apply that thinking to your cloaked camper.

It's not like anyone is asking for a button to just detonate cloaked ships without any real fight anytime they like, despite the opposite being pretty much the affect of operating in a system with a cloaked camp.

A method of bringing the non-consent to another ship in space is all. Plain and simple. In a POS is supposed to be safe by design to allow assets to accumulate and give residents something to fight over. In a station is supposed to be safe.

In a ship floating in open space is specifically not supposed to be safe. Inflicting loss on the residents from behind a perfect defense is not balanced. Cloaks in their present incarnation are not balanced. Leaving them as is should require a ship with zero weapons and no Cyno. Otherwise they need a way to be hunted, just like every other ship in space.

You aren't owed or entititled in any way to kills of soft targets. It's meant to drive conflict, not just provide kills.

If you can take it as well as dish it out, getting hunted while you are hunting should be no issue. I can see where that would be a problem for a gankbear though.


Cloaks. do. not. inflict. loss.

I asked before, how many ships have killed anyone while they had an active cloak?


Just back up 40 pages or so and read. That's what the next 40 pages of your sniveling would look like.
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#3465 - 2015-11-19 03:21:42 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Nope, all of that was accounted for in the previous discussion. Go educate yourself and come back with an actual balanced suggestion that does not involve eternal blueballs or else you just automatically winning.



And all your bad posts have been accounted for a million times before which is why this discussion is stupid. No amount of your whining is going to change anything. People that just want to sit and complain cause they can't krab all the time are the lowest denominator in this game.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#3466 - 2015-11-19 03:51:31 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Nope, all of that was accounted for in the previous discussion. Go educate yourself and come back with an actual balanced suggestion that does not involve eternal blueballs or else you just automatically winning.



And all your bad posts have been accounted for a million times before which is why this discussion is stupid. No amount of your whining is going to change anything. People that just want to sit and complain cause they can't krab all the time are the lowest denominator in this game.



Oh, Hi. You must have mistaken me for someone who just wants to bicker with idiots. I am not.

You come on back with that suggestion I asked for so as to generate an actual conversation, discuss any of the current suggestions on the table, or go play the game or something. So far your only contributions are to join in the chorus of snivelers who think it's balanced that they be 100% safe as long as they want, where they want and doing what they want with no need to even be at the keyboard while their opposition must be hyper vigilant at all times.
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#3467 - 2015-11-19 08:44:15 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Nope, all of that was accounted for in the previous discussion. Go educate yourself and come back with an actual balanced suggestion that does not involve eternal blueballs or else you just automatically winning.



And all your bad posts have been accounted for a million times before which is why this discussion is stupid. No amount of your whining is going to change anything. People that just want to sit and complain cause they can't krab all the time are the lowest denominator in this game.



Oh, Hi. You must have mistaken me for someone who just wants to bicker with idiots. I am not.

You come on back with that suggestion I asked for so as to generate an actual conversation, discuss any of the current suggestions on the table, or go play the game or something. So far your only contributions are to join in the chorus of snivelers who think it's balanced that they be 100% safe as long as they want, where they want and doing what they want with no need to even be at the keyboard while their opposition must be hyper vigilant at all times.


My suggestion was remove local in 0.0. Already detailed to you how defender has a bunch of advantages already. Quit leaking and l2p
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#3468 - 2015-11-19 09:20:34 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Nope, all of that was accounted for in the previous discussion. Go educate yourself and come back with an actual balanced suggestion that does not involve eternal blueballs or else you just automatically winning.



And all your bad posts have been accounted for a million times before which is why this discussion is stupid. No amount of your whining is going to change anything. People that just want to sit and complain cause they can't krab all the time are the lowest denominator in this game.



Oh, Hi. You must have mistaken me for someone who just wants to bicker with idiots. I am not.

You come on back with that suggestion I asked for so as to generate an actual conversation, discuss any of the current suggestions on the table, or go play the game or something. So far your only contributions are to join in the chorus of snivelers who think it's balanced that they be 100% safe as long as they want, where they want and doing what they want with no need to even be at the keyboard while their opposition must be hyper vigilant at all times.


My suggestion was remove local in 0.0. Already detailed to you how defender has a bunch of advantages already. Quit leaking and l2p


Oh. Sorry. Thought you might have something to add to the conversation. I was wrong. My bad.

You will have to go back 100 pages or so to see where that suggestion was largely dismissed.
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#3469 - 2015-11-19 12:44:50 UTC
I mean they've been dismissed by krabs who's opinions don't mean a damn thing. Not much of a loss.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#3470 - 2015-11-19 14:40:55 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
I mean they've been dismissed by krabs who's opinions don't mean a damn thing. Not much of a loss.


Which is why you don't get to participate in a meaningful conversation. If your opinion is the only one that matters, you win. Kthxby.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#3471 - 2015-11-19 16:39:42 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Just back up 40 pages or so and read. That's what the next 40 pages of your sniveling would look like.


100% of what you post in this thread is literally "I don't want to PvP in a PvP centered game, so let's nerf anything that hurts me PvE-ing in dangerous space.

Go back to HS and stop whining already. You've been given solutions to counter cloaks already. You whine more than my five year old niece.
Fancy Candy
Good Names All Gone
#3472 - 2015-11-19 16:55:38 UTC
the endless story.
WH living entities say "remove local" but always ignore one simple difference betwen K and WH space.
Ever seen a cyno beneath your ship going up ?
In WH space your intel is Dscan ... if you are using it constantly you are relative save.
in 0.0 space your Intel is Local .. Dscan cant help if a Cyno opens beneath you and you get instadropped.

So as a good comparison.
the permanent Cloaked Vessel for WH would be a hidden WH entrance directly beneath your ratting ships which only the attacker can open and use.

what is asked for is to have a counter.
As many possibly start to forget .. 0.0 Sovspace now NEEDS work so index goes up to be at least a little saver in your system you fought for.

So permacloak suddenly become a attack weapon against SOV holders which there is no counter existing.

the old answer "change system" is now a not valid answer anymore ... you NEED to use your systems to get your index up.

There should never be a function ingame which cannot be countered in any way.
And NO "bring a big fleet to rat in you space" is not working ... if the cyno goes up they WILL be in greater numbers than you .

in WH space you press "Dscan" and have 20+ seconds or more to "run away" .. in 0.0 you have 1 second until you know that your ships are toast.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#3473 - 2015-11-19 18:26:56 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Just back up 40 pages or so and read. That's what the next 40 pages of your sniveling would look like.


100% of what you post in this thread is literally "I don't want to PvP in a PvP centered game, so let's nerf anything that hurts me PvE-ing in dangerous space.

Go back to HS and stop whining already. You've been given solutions to counter cloaks already. You whine more than my five year old niece.


No. There have been no counters to cloaks mentioned at all.

There have been ideas to mitigate what the camper might choose to do. That leaves all initiative still in his hands, profitability of the system halved or worse, and the active efforts of an entire alliance handwaved away with the trivial fitting choice of a cloak sitting passively wherever he chooses.

The solution I support only requires the camper to be as active as his prey. A far cry from eliminating PvP, it actually encourages it, though it's not the one sided gank you would prefer.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#3474 - 2015-11-19 18:57:34 UTC
Fancy Candy wrote:
the endless story.
WH living entities say "remove local" but always ignore one simple difference betwen K and WH space.
Ever seen a cyno beneath your ship going up ?
In WH space your intel is Dscan ... if you are using it constantly you are relative save.
in 0.0 space your Intel is Local .. Dscan cant help if a Cyno opens beneath you and you get instadropped.

So as a good comparison.
the permanent Cloaked Vessel for WH would be a hidden WH entrance directly beneath your ratting ships which only the attacker can open and use.

what is asked for is to have a counter.
As many possibly start to forget .. 0.0 Sovspace now NEEDS work so index goes up to be at least a little saver in your system you fought for.

So permacloak suddenly become a attack weapon against SOV holders which there is no counter existing.

the old answer "change system" is now a not valid answer anymore ... you NEED to use your systems to get your index up.

There should never be a function ingame which cannot be countered in any way.
And NO "bring a big fleet to rat in you space" is not working ... if the cyno goes up they WILL be in greater numbers than you .

in WH space you press "Dscan" and have 20+ seconds or more to "run away" .. in 0.0 you have 1 second until you know that your ships are toast.


Then let's talk about a way to hunt cloaked ships only when a cyno is on that ship. Don't nerf all cloaking because you don't like one subset of what you do when cloaked.

Mike Voidstar wrote:
No. There have been no counters to cloaks mentioned at all.

There have been ideas to mitigate what the camper might choose to do. That leaves all initiative still in his hands, profitability of the system halved or worse, and the active efforts of an entire alliance handwaved away with the trivial fitting choice of a cloak sitting passively wherever he chooses.

The solution I support only requires the camper to be as active as his prey. A far cry from eliminating PvP, it actually encourages it, though it's not the one sided gank you would prefer.


You've already said you refuse to put a defense fleet together, refuse to do PvE in a PvP fit ship, and refuse to even engage someone in PvP in the first place.

What right do you have to post in this thread when you refuse to even use existing game mechanics? Have you even read this thread?

Mike Voidstar, trying to turn EVE into WoW in space since 2008.
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#3475 - 2015-11-19 19:40:09 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
I mean they've been dismissed by krabs who's opinions don't mean a damn thing. Not much of a loss.


Which is why you don't get to participate in a meaningful conversation. If your opinion is the only one that matters, you win. Kthxby.



I'd participate in it if there was one. But it's just krabs whining and whining and whining. How does anyone else rat and you can't seem to figure out how? Ugh
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#3476 - 2015-11-20 00:00:28 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
I mean they've been dismissed by krabs who's opinions don't mean a damn thing. Not much of a loss.


Which is why you don't get to participate in a meaningful conversation. If your opinion is the only one that matters, you win. Kthxby.



I'd participate in it if there was one. But it's just krabs whining and whining and whining. How does anyone else rat and you can't seem to figure out how? Ugh

So you are just trolling. Good to know.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#3477 - 2015-11-20 00:11:44 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Fancy Candy wrote:
the endless story.
WH living entities say "remove local" but always ignore one simple difference betwen K and WH space.
Ever seen a cyno beneath your ship going up ?
In WH space your intel is Dscan ... if you are using it constantly you are relative save.
in 0.0 space your Intel is Local .. Dscan cant help if a Cyno opens beneath you and you get instadropped.

So as a good comparison.
the permanent Cloaked Vessel for WH would be a hidden WH entrance directly beneath your ratting ships which only the attacker can open and use.

what is asked for is to have a counter.
As many possibly start to forget .. 0.0 Sovspace now NEEDS work so index goes up to be at least a little saver in your system you fought for.

So permacloak suddenly become a attack weapon against SOV holders which there is no counter existing.

the old answer "change system" is now a not valid answer anymore ... you NEED to use your systems to get your index up.

There should never be a function ingame which cannot be countered in any way.
And NO "bring a big fleet to rat in you space" is not working ... if the cyno goes up they WILL be in greater numbers than you .

in WH space you press "Dscan" and have 20+ seconds or more to "run away" .. in 0.0 you have 1 second until you know that your ships are toast.


Then let's talk about a way to hunt cloaked ships only when a cyno is on that ship. Don't nerf all cloaking because you don't like one subset of what you do when cloaked.

Mike Voidstar wrote:
No. There have been no counters to cloaks mentioned at all.

There have been ideas to mitigate what the camper might choose to do. That leaves all initiative still in his hands, profitability of the system halved or worse, and the active efforts of an entire alliance handwaved away with the trivial fitting choice of a cloak sitting passively wherever he chooses.

The solution I support only requires the camper to be as active as his prey. A far cry from eliminating PvP, it actually encourages it, though it's not the one sided gank you would prefer.


You've already said you refuse to put a defense fleet together, refuse to do PvE in a PvP fit ship, and refuse to even engage someone in PvP in the first place.

What right do you have to post in this thread when you refuse to even use existing game mechanics? Have you even read this thread?

Mike Voidstar, trying to turn EVE into WoW in space since 2008.


An end to the trolling at last.... You will admit that cloaks could use a balance with Cynos. You might have put that forth as a discussion point instead of just being a belligerent troll and spewing ad hominem all the live long day.

I didn't say I refuse to put together a fleet or compromise my fit. Those are your strawmen. I said doing those things reduces the profitability below acceptable levels, making high sec better in every way if your goal is PvE. Likewise it is utterly immaterial if I will personally hunt down aggressors or have an ally do it. Either way it becomes more PvP, not less, and active gameplay instead of eternal blueballs.
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#3478 - 2015-11-20 03:07:36 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
I mean they've been dismissed by krabs who's opinions don't mean a damn thing. Not much of a loss.


Which is why you don't get to participate in a meaningful conversation. If your opinion is the only one that matters, you win. Kthxby.



I'd participate in it if there was one. But it's just krabs whining and whining and whining. How does anyone else rat and you can't seem to figure out how? Ugh

So you are just trolling. Good to know.


Well I mean can anyone even take this thread seriously? It's just krabs that can't figure out how to deal with enemy ships that are whining. Seriously, go find out how other people are making money ratting cause 99 percent of everyone else seems to have figured it out except you.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#3479 - 2015-11-20 05:31:37 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
I mean they've been dismissed by krabs who's opinions don't mean a damn thing. Not much of a loss.


Which is why you don't get to participate in a meaningful conversation. If your opinion is the only one that matters, you win. Kthxby.



I'd participate in it if there was one. But it's just krabs whining and whining and whining. How does anyone else rat and you can't seem to figure out how? Ugh

So you are just trolling. Good to know.


Well I mean can anyone even take this thread seriously? It's just krabs that can't figure out how to deal with enemy ships that are whining. Seriously, go find out how other people are making money ratting cause 99 percent of everyone else seems to have figured it out except you.


Sure. Go read the thread.

Really big entities can do it easy. They have big defense fleets and dozens of systems worth of buffer with standing Intel networks anyway. Those are the guys supposedly justifying the unbalanced power of perfect cloaks, yet are affected least, if at all.

Add to the fact that cloaked campers don't create PvP, they just end playing altogether. I mean... It's such a boring thing that one side just straight up goes atk for the next week. That's all kinds of broke, and not just because it scares off carebears.

Not that you will care, as the concerns of carebears mean nothing and they don't even have a right to play at all. But if you change your mind and have a real idea, join the discussion.
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#3480 - 2015-11-20 08:07:48 UTC
Wealth and prosperity isn't a right, it's a privilege you have to fight for. Everyone else does. What makes you so entitled to it?