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[December] Command Destroyers

First post First post
Author
Luscius Uta
#401 - 2015-11-19 10:33:54 UTC
I cannot fathom how anyone could seriously suggest usage of MJFGs in highsec. Has anyone thought of the mess they would cause on Jita undock? Sure, this could lead to delicious tears from certain fail PvPers who just station camp all day, but potential for exploits is far greater.
I suggest their ban from lowsec also. As well as disabling the activating ship's warp drive for 15 seconds after activation.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#402 - 2015-11-19 11:01:53 UTC
Luscius Uta wrote:
I cannot fathom how anyone could seriously suggest usage of MJFGs in highsec. Has anyone thought of the mess they would cause on Jita undock? Sure, this could lead to delicious tears from certain fail PvPers who just station camp all day, but potential for exploits is far greater.
I suggest their ban from lowsec also. As well as disabling the activating ship's warp drive for 15 seconds after activation.

Or they could be allowed in highsec but disallowed within 100km of stargates, stations, asteroid belts, and deadspace pockets in highsec. They could be disallowed within 25km of stargates and stations in lowsec.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#403 - 2015-11-19 11:33:04 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Shagmar Gera wrote:
I just tested it on Singularity. And since so many people were asking...

So far:

The MJFG does jump bastioned marauders.

It does not jump freighters, or Orcas.

EDIT: Also! I MFJG'd a cyno ship. The Ship moved but the cyno stayed put.



The marauder and cyno are really bad. Hopefully bugs.


I really hope they fix these things.

Using it to jump a cyno offensively sounds like it could be powerful, atlhough I don't think it is particularly broken considering it is difficult to stop a cyno anyway, but it shouldn't jump the ship and leave the cyno behind.

The bastion module on the other hand has EWAR immunity and so it should definitely be immune or else marauders effectively become useless.



I think it is a bug as bastion blocks a marauders OWN mjd.

They just need to code that immobilized objects are not moved.

Jumping bastioned marauders would be a complete nonsense. "Halp, my tank is breaking....warp me off grid, pronto" and the other guys can't even scram the marauder to hold it down, because bastion.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#404 - 2015-11-19 12:31:41 UTC
For the last time those mj-drives are not allowed in highsec.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#405 - 2015-11-19 13:11:36 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Luscius Uta wrote:
I cannot fathom how anyone could seriously suggest usage of MJFGs in highsec. Has anyone thought of the mess they would cause on Jita undock? Sure, this could lead to delicious tears from certain fail PvPers who just station camp all day, but potential for exploits is far greater.
I suggest their ban from lowsec also. As well as disabling the activating ship's warp drive for 15 seconds after activation.

Or they could be allowed in highsec but disallowed within 100km of stargates, stations, asteroid belts, and deadspace pockets in highsec. They could be disallowed within 25km of stargates and stations in lowsec.



Or they could just not be allowed in HS. LS is not supposed to be safe, neither is HS for that matter. Certainly not LS though. Proper scouting and protection from CDs should be up to the player, not some silly arbitrary rule.

With your proposal this would then continue the 99.9% safe links hugging stations and gate with very limited options in killing them (mainly alpha nados). People need to accept some risk, especially in lowsec. The only form of safety they should get is the gate guns helping when you agress.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#406 - 2015-11-19 13:42:07 UTC
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
Hi-sec was not intended to be this big mass safety zone. It was intended that if you were bad, Concord punished you. I see more of CCP playing this role lately then Concord itself. Player engagement is what established this game, what grew this game. More and more this is removed due to safety nets needing to be put in place. You know whats a constant trend since eve got safer and player friendly? Less players. An amazing trend that started since the NPE and increased protections around all classes of space was the reduction of active players, of subscribed players, of fleets filling quick, of guys and gals to do content with.

May we stop this shyt and go back to what made eve popular in the days that filled its server? The days that filled fleets and voice channels? Stop holding everyones hand and let the players engage. It's what made EVE. Let the players relearn how to protect their ships. Let us relearn how to safeguard our assets. Get your filthy dev hand off mine and let me get ganked in my Blingdicator while chasing a mothership. If I got caught obviously my group wasnt watching the area. We didnt have gates or stations scouted, or warpins guarded. EVE is about choice, and risk, stop taking it away damnit.

I want the damn rush I had playing this game. I fight enough to log in. I used to get excited mining, there was risk. Gankers always were around, you paid attention in local , you slipped attention an extra twenty bucks when you had to go bio, hoped attention had you back while you were gone. You rushed that damn bathroom also. You had no safety switch, no warning for pvp. You had a decision to make, ruins someday or show humanity. That was your choice in EVE. You did not have to cross check the TOS, EULA, FORUMS, Reddit to make sure your combat wasnt going to be petitioned and be handed a 30 day vacation, because suddenly it was considered Griefing someone if you shot them while they were in the bathroom in the middle of the third shake. What you had to worry mercs were sent after you, or there corp. Bring back the days of players policing themselves. Bring back player engagement and actual risk. Give back the blood rush people kept thru the day. Kill off the monotony we now face. Let us go back to playing the game and stop deciding how it should be. That was never your selling point. Get the adults out of my sandbox!


I'm guessing my "back in the day" was different to yours, in that PVE was the mainstay of EVE Online, when the highest peak of players was around 5-6K and we thought it was crowded then but we lived with the PVPers and the greifers, we formed gangs (yep they were called gangs in my day) from Local and got together to mine and make our money.

While I agree there is a little too much pandering to the "New Players" and this softly softly approach to them I'm all for a cautious approach when adding something like this that really has so many applications.

Take note that they asked for feedback and also reserve the right to change the module or tweak it as they get feedback. I think the kids need to be kicked out of the sandbox and let the adults play with the toys. Adults always have more fun with toys than kids do anyway.
Feledain
Elmsfeuer
#407 - 2015-11-19 15:22:40 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
For the last time those mj-drives are not allowed in highsec.


we know this
the argment is if they should be
you know... because F&I

I say allow them, but with some restirctrions. Getting suspect and beeing immobile like marauderes while the MJFG spools up.

CCP can allways bann them if they are realy gamebraking.


The whole "but the jita undock" can be solved with tethering for ALL stations. BUM immun ships at undock (if they are tethert)
Valkin Mordirc
#408 - 2015-11-19 16:12:42 UTC
What have people seen on how these things do against T3D's?


I've fought both Sviples and Confessors on SiSi and had fairly good luck with the Stork. With a Single MSE + point dual webs with an MWD and MJD you can fairly easily skirt around them. The Tank wasn't quite great but you could drop the MJD for another MSE I think.


10MN fittings on the Stork was possible to, but it don't seem OP at all. Incase anyone was wondering.
#DeleteTheWeak
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#409 - 2015-11-19 16:56:45 UTC
I was tinkering with the stork and bifrost on SiSi last night. As far as link killers go, i believe the stork/bifrost will be the best bets. The bifrost will be the better dps boat due to the extra low over the stork. I fit it with rockets, dual BCU, DCU, dual MSE plus AB and MJD. With rage rockets it was about 230dps before heat with my skills. In game stats were over 12k EHP. Not too bad for tank. Hopefully enough to handle gate guns.

Tested the mjd on station undock and i believe it warped "invulnerable" ships too. As about 1-2sec before the MJD activated a hecate undocked and he came along with me as well as a couple other ships.

So i believe there are a couple bugs, and that might explain why marauders and cynos can be moved.
Estella Osoka
Perkone
Caldari State
#410 - 2015-11-19 17:06:37 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Lord Jasta wrote:
Yet another item that can't be used in high sec, :( why not have this with a criminal timer?


We really wanted to but even with a criminal timer you would pretty easily be able to destroy incursion fleets, which seemed over the top :(


You say that like it is a bad thing.
Estella Osoka
Perkone
Caldari State
#411 - 2015-11-19 17:12:43 UTC
Rosal Milag wrote:
afkalt wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Lord Jasta wrote:
Yet another item that can't be used in high sec, :( why not have this with a criminal timer?


We really wanted to but even with a criminal timer you would pretty easily be able to destroy incursion fleets, which seemed over the top :(



It's not over the top. It's hilarious and moreover, some needed risk to that community.


When there is no counterplay, its over the top. Specifically referring to the ability of these destroyers to warp into an incursion fight, activate without anyone stopping them and killing the fleet as the logi is now 100km away and useless.

In low and null, as soon as the destroyer lands, its able to be killed. In high sec, you get concorded. Even a criminal timer when it activates isn't enough, both for the fleet to kill it or for it to activate before concord kills it in certain systems.


Sure there is counterplay. Make the module automatically give the pilot a suspect timer, you got ~5secs to scram the Command Destroyer.
Valkin Mordirc
#412 - 2015-11-19 17:37:28 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
I was tinkering with the stork and bifrost on SiSi last night. As far as link killers go, i believe the stork/bifrost will be the best bets. The bifrost will be the better dps boat due to the extra low over the stork. I fit it with rockets, dual BCU, DCU, dual MSE plus AB and MJD. With rage rockets it was about 230dps before heat with my skills. In game stats were over 12k EHP. Not too bad for tank. Hopefully enough to handle gate guns.

Tested the mjd on station undock and i believe it warped "invulnerable" ships too. As about 1-2sec before the MJD activated a hecate undocked and he came along with me as well as a couple other ships.

So i believe there are a couple bugs, and that might explain why marauders and cynos can be moved.



Yeah the Stork I was using was

Highslot,
Five LML II w Rage

Mid
2 meta 4 webs
1 meta 4 point
1 Retrained MWD
1 MJD
1 MSE

Low
DC
BCS

Rigs
Anti-EM
Polycarb
Polycarb

Went 2.8k without links 3.5 I think with links, I had Highgrade snakes no omega, That setup was pretty much able to beat a fessor and a Svip barely. But the snakes alone was able to keep them at range with help of the webs. When I tried it with links I didn't really need the webs unless I was flying like crap.

DPS was like 130 with rage, I think. I actually can't remember but 130 sounds close.


As for the MJD I was able to move a few ships with me, a Demios and Slep were fighting and a Pilgrim jumped into the fight. I was able to move both the the ships without the pilgrim, drones and all. When we landed, the Slep and Demi still had lock on each other and were still engaging, drones actually didn't seem to at first.
#DeleteTheWeak
Blood Thorn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#413 - 2015-11-19 17:56:37 UTC
While this may seem to add to the strategy portfolio - it makes defensive tactical positioning around gates useless and is yet another reason to not include long range weapons in a fight. So ultimately this reduces combat strategy for fleets.

How is this good for the game?

It seems to me that something needs to be added for a tactical counter. Perhaps a warp disruption bubble in the path?
Doddy
Excidium.
#414 - 2015-11-19 18:01:49 UTC
Zockhandra wrote:


If this modules works like other MJD (can only be shut down via scram), what is stopping players from diving into a bubble to save titans?


I don't know why this is an issue for people, you know any ship could dive into a bubble and smartbomb it already right? That can't be stopped by scrams.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#415 - 2015-11-19 18:02:12 UTC
Blood Thorn wrote:
So ultimately this reduces combat strategy for fleets.


I fear this will be the case. What CCP thi8nks will happen is 'more manual piloting', I think what will happen is that fleets will become faster (ie even less reason to use big ships), fleet fights will be much more a game of 'keep away' even than they are now, and people will get sick of it in very very short order.

CCp seems to have not learned the lesson that everything exploitable will be exploited,, every thing that can be min/maxxed will be min/maxxed and everything eventually boils down to it's simplest common denominator.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#416 - 2015-11-19 18:12:09 UTC
Blood Thorn wrote:
While this may seem to add to the strategy portfolio - it makes defensive tactical positioning around gates useless and is yet another reason to not include long range weapons in a fight. So ultimately this reduces combat strategy for fleets.

How is this good for the game?

It seems to me that something needs to be added for a tactical counter. Perhaps a warp disruption bubble in the path?


Dont put all your long range guns in the same spot? Spread them out around the grid.

Also "long range" can mean a lot things. A rail naga with sebos can shoot out to 250km, which is completely unaffected by this MJD dessie. An arty cane has a max range between 50-90km. If you are 150km away, or 50km away, an MJD dessie wont land on top of you.

So i guess what im getting at is, dont sit 100km off a gate/station? Seems like a pretty simple work around.

As for how its good for the game, the command dessie side of things is good for frig gangs that want mobile links. Makes frig gangs more viable without lugging around a booster t3.

The MJD function has many uses. Escaping or starting a fight. Using it to help your BS bretheren avoid a bombing run (or teleport the bombs away from them). Move enemy logi out of their blob to be killed unopposed. Moving cowardly link boats hugging stations/gates. Those are just a few ideas off the top of my head that were discussed in the first pages of the thread. Perhaps look there first?

Your "counterplay" would utterly defeat the whole purpose of the ship. Every other dictor in a fleet would just spam "anti-MJD" bubbles and there would be very few uses for it after that.
Doddy
Excidium.
#417 - 2015-11-19 18:16:36 UTC
Rosal Milag wrote:
afkalt wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Lord Jasta wrote:
Yet another item that can't be used in high sec, :( why not have this with a criminal timer?


We really wanted to but even with a criminal timer you would pretty easily be able to destroy incursion fleets, which seemed over the top :(



It's not over the top. It's hilarious and moreover, some needed risk to that community.


When there is no counterplay, its over the top. Specifically referring to the ability of these destroyers to warp into an incursion fight, activate without anyone stopping them and killing the fleet as the logi is now 100km away and useless.

In low and null, as soon as the destroyer lands, its able to be killed. In high sec, you get concorded. Even a criminal timer when it activates isn't enough, both for the fleet to kill it or for it to activate before concord kills it in certain systems.


Stay within 6k of the logi, being repped from 50k away is to op in pvp never mind against incursion rats.
virm pasuul
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#418 - 2015-11-19 20:07:31 UTC
What happens if an MFJG ship is spinning up it's 9 second activation timer and during that spinup it itself get hit by another ships' MFJG.

Example 7 MFJG ships.
6 spread out around, but within 6km of the centrally positioned 7th. All pointing away from it in different directions.
The centrally positioned 7th activates it's 9 second timer whilst pointing into the middle of an enemy fleet.
Two full seconds later the remaining 6 ships all activate their MFJGs

6 seconds later the central anchor ship jumps them all.
As soon as they land all the other MFJGs now go off in among the enemy fleet.
Enemy fleet flies apart in all directions.
Thales
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#419 - 2015-11-19 20:09:01 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
ChromeStriker wrote:
Are there any prerequisites for the command destroyer skill??

Also does this mean your going ot change the weapon types on interdictors to match their T1 counterparts and continue the weapon progression? (Hybrids on the flycatcher?)


Command Destroyer Prereqs: Warfare link Specialist 4 and Spaceship Command 5



I loved the idea of T2 destroyers with the microjump drive.

But command destroyers, with the prerequisites you have added? No thank you.

I am sure many people will be using their billion isk implanted pods as hero tackle on a regular basisRoll no? Using ongrid suicide links and boost on grid? No? Or is the idea of suiciding ones links, to win the battle in an all or nothing sacrifice not actually going to happen? Or is this just a sop to those afraid of losing the value of their training when they lose the ability to operate from a safe?

This new and exciting mode of combat, is totally incompatable with the concept of link characters, I really do not know how you mashed these two ideas together.

Can we please actually get to use this ship without training skills that have no relevance to it's design, especially as if these ships are fitted with links they are ill equipped to fit the MJD with enough tank to survive the spoolup in the first place (cpu)
motie one
Secret Passage
#420 - 2015-11-19 20:23:07 UTC  |  Edited by: motie one
The coming soon page does get one excited about the new T2 destroyer coming, and after reading here, it seems that that has all changed and we now have a command destroyer to provide links. Great, linky MJD mishmash.

That's a letdown.

I have absolutely no intention of touching anything to do with training links while their future is so up in the air. Not forgetting the hidden prerequisite of leadership V added in as well.
There are better things to train, and these are now relegated in my mind to cool idea, shame I will just see others use them.

No one with a whit of sense will train leadership skills to V and link skills to IV to use these ships as a MJFG equipped ship. So you are restricting them to those who already have these skills or are training them anyway.

Please remove link and leadership skills as a prerequisite to use these ships, let those who want to use them in this form do so, but not with these prerequisites killing the anticipation for the rest of us.

You do not HAVE to call them command ships, I would expect a command ship to be able to be far more powerful at providing links than this. The standard battlecruiser does not have to have these skills as a prerequisite, only when specialising to ships like the Eos etc, do these type of skills start to become enforced prerequisites.

They have a role as a link ship, they have a role as a hero tackle MJD ship providing asymmetric disruption, however as an analogy you seem to have created a well functioning tin opener with a blowtorch feature added as an afterthought . Sounds like something one sells to the stupid on QVC.

Ps I have tried them on Sisi, MJFG role is awesome, I can see a wide range of tactics developing from them, great idea, unfortunately, as the requirements stand, I will only be using them on Sisi, Pity. Sad