EVE General Discussion

1) I know that F.o.F. don't work as advertized. Has been like this back in 2006 when I started and hasn't changed a bit since then.

2) ECCM , the local module(s) has its use on fairly few ships since you can't ask an entire fleet to sacrifice a low or a mid slot on the chance of being targeted by an ECM ship. I do use them on logistic cruisers.

3) Remote ECCM (Projected ECCM) are actually interesting, but I haven't seen them in use.

4) You may have noticed that I suggested a buff to Projected ECCM, if needed. Such a buff could include dedicated ships, like there are logistic ships now. I hear CCP likes new ships.

5) Why nerf something that isn't broken, when you could boost something that has been broken for years. (ECM got its well deserved nerfs in the past. ECCM and F.o.F.s have remained untouched as far as I remember.)

6) Many modules applied in numbers to one single ship are unpleasant to be at the receiving end of. And don't get me the "Yeah, but ECM is different because I can't target anything". You can still run your reppers and call for back-up, tell your mates to kill the source ECM ship, ask for R-ECCM (oh wait, nobody brought that ), counter ECM the enemy ECM ships, deagress (oh wait, that's already happening , well pull your drones) and jump back through the gate or dock.

7) What me worry if I can't shoot as long as my logistic wing keeps me alive ?

I think I almost covered it all. There is certainly more ... I haven't flown in a year now, one tends to forget and the fitting meta changes. In my opinion off-grid boosters are a bigger pain in the ass. ECM is just more in your face, that's why people dislike it ... not because it is so damagingly broken as some claim it to be.

Cost has everything to do with it and this occasionally trotted out argument that cost is irrelevant to balance is tedious. If it were true, no one would fly anything but T1 ships. You DO get vastly enhanced function for a higher price in the case of many hulls, especially if you play to their strengths. A dirt cheap frigate should not be able to shut down a battleship permanently. The counters to ECM are bad and unworkable in a small gang setting. The guys that fly around in solo battleships, whatever you may think of them, are creating content in a way that Johnny Nullsec sitting in an anom and waiting to take his part in the weekly blob is not. Those people make EVE better. The people that undock a griffin or worse, a falcon on them every time, make it worse.

Only the damp takes damp + range in order to be truly effective, meaning you have to not only use EWAR, but also pilot your ship correctly and choose your engagement wisely. If the enemy gets too close, they can lock you and it's lights out. ECM is jam + laugh. It doesn't require you to position correctly, save maybe being in range so you aren't in fall off, but that's an easy range to extend. Jamming doesn't require to pilot your ship correctly, especially in small gang settings where you can jam just about everything that is a threat to you. The anti-jamming mechanics are either broken or penalize your ship. Sensor boosters help you whether you are damped or not. Tracking computers help you whether you are disrupted or not. Prop mods help you whether you are webbed or not. ECCM does not do jack for you unless the enemy is fielding ECM, AND EVEN THEN, there is still chance you will get jammed anyways. RNG based jams mean you can get jammed even if your sensor strength is high just as much as it means the jam can miss even if your sensor strength is low. ECM is on a completely different level than all other EWAR. There is no comparison. Its countermeasure gimps your ship while it simultaneously has the chance to fail you, and auto-targeting missiles are a complete joke, not to mention *gasp* not everyone flies missile boats.

The same could be said for just about anything in eve. Why can a couple of mil isk desy take out a 6 billion isk freighter? And there are countless examples of single frigs plinking away at vastly expensive bs until they die. In truth if eve was like real life - no little frig is ever going to have a chance to solo a BS. But eve is not rl - CCP deliberately made it so that larger is not necessarily better. So it is entirely within that frame work established by CCP that a griffin can lockdown a Bhaalgorn. Ofc I suspect that if a griffin perma jams a Bhaalgorn its because of bad skills - the Bhaalgorn simply forgot to train the ecm counter skills to V or in lieu of that - forgot to fit eccm or drones - or have friends.

First off - your numbers about cost for ganking freighters is simply totally wrong. Second off - if you fit a bs to murder frigs - you basically cripple it, making it largely useless for its intended purpose. As for eccm rendering a bs useless - its one mod that you fit - which hardly renders the ship useless. But you miss the whole point - in eve you can counter anything if you know whats coming - the problem is when you get unexpected combat - which is exactly where a bs being tied down and killed by a frig occurs which is clearly functionally identical to a ship being perma jammed because they did not fit eccm or train the necessary skills.

Also I should add - ecm already got nerfed to hell and back. Used to be falcons were a thing - barely see them anymore - and with good reason because all vets know to train the counter ecm skills which make being perma jammed unlikely.

EVE is generally more about rock paper scissors than it is about positioning.


Except, its more like rock paper scissors combat knife hammer nuclear missile.

You what, mate? Sounds like you've never flown an EWAR platform.

Positioning is EVERYTHING for EWAR hulls, regardless of what kind of EWAR we're talking about.

Bad positioning in an EWAR boat gets you blapped, very quickly. Warping to the fight at zero is suicide. Everyone hates the ECM hull. I mean EVERYONE. As I've said, I fly Kitsunes a lot. I'm used to being the instant primary in a fight, which is why I disable fleet warp and try to arrive on-grid ~10-15s after the fight starts.

Good positioning give you the opportunity to apply your electronic voodoo and gives you a decent chance of escape when the inevitable T3 Dessy or 'ceptor comes burning at you.

The secret to EWAR success is bookmarks, and lot of them. Close by off-grid bookmarks. Bounce perches above, below, front, back, left and right at various ranges. I've spent many, many hours in a snaked Dramiel or 'ceptor burning perches off gates I use regularly and all around various important stations.

Heck, I have over 30 bookmarks scattered around one particular Lowsec -> Highsec gate alone.

Here's some advice on EWAR and how to counter it: https://www.themittani.com/features/ewar-newbies

And if your gonna nerf EWAR, I want my not inconsiderable SP investment back.

Theres that word 'blob' before. When my ratting ship gets tackled and I use the tools EVE has to get away, I'm not 'blobbing' im usually being blobbed.

If you don't want to use the tools that exist to solve this thing you think of as a problem, that's your choice. But you don't get to pretend like those tools don't exist.

And now, a very appropriate video for everyone complaining about something they could counter if they gave it some thought: click for Appropriate video.

a 4 man battleship fleet ruining a 22 man gang for it to be ruined by 5 griffins.

pffft

Can't even lock a griffin up in a BS before you are jammed again.

They (and you) are wrong. I would love to see you types sent back in time to before the ECM and Falcon nerfs. If you think EWAR is bad now, you'd have loved it back then (not).

This goes to show CCP that no amount of nerfing something will ever please those who can't be bothered to think for themselves int he 1st place. It's not unlike how high sec miners claimed mining ships needed ehp buffs, got ehp buffs, and still complain lol.