These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Countering Bumping ganks in highsec

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#361 - 2015-11-18 12:56:45 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I mean, seriously, that is the single stupidest thing I have ever read on these forums, and that includes the tripe that Infinity Ziona or Dinsdale used to post.

"Gankers should not be able to just log in and kill somebody, but freighters totally have the right to be afk without consequence."

Nevermind that the heavy handed criminal flag penalties are exactly why gankers behave like that. Nope, it can't possibly be yet another repercussion of the overbearing nerfs to real gameplay, we must just need to dramatically buff the safety of afk people in highsec yet again.

I honestly can't believe you actually copped to that level of hypocrisy. Nothing you say will ever be taken seriously again, although it's not like you had much credibility to begin with.



So to be clear cupcake - I said gankers shouldn't be allowed to play by ping.

I never said freighters should be allowed to auto pilot or be AFK.

You added that because I'm right, you're paniced that I'm right and your only vialble means to argue is to 'add in' things I didn't say and argue the points you added in. All the while calling me pathetic (If only I could think of a word to describe what you are doing.... hmm...)

What you quoted me as saying: "Gankers should not be able to just log in and kill somebody, but freighters totally have the right to be afk without consequence."

The second half of your qhote is not anywhere in what I said. (That Billy Idol song 'Dancing with myself' kind of embodies your fantasy argument)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#362 - 2015-11-18 12:58:03 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:

I never said freighters should be allowed to auto pilot or be AFK.


Yes, you did, and have done so repeatedly. You're literally here arguing for the imaginary right of people to play the game wrong. It's pretty much all you ever post.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#363 - 2015-11-18 13:00:04 UTC
why shouldnt gankers be allowed to do ping play?What?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#364 - 2015-11-18 13:02:34 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
why shouldnt gankers be allowed to do ping play?What?


Because.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#365 - 2015-11-18 13:10:21 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
You are correct, I don't want you to have a reason to log in and gank someone. I want the game to support you being logged in on your ganking character and being engaged in ganking (the waiting part until a viable target is located). I don't want you ratting guristas for 3 hours and then logging ratter pilot off, logging ganker pilot on while another character in a mach 'holds' the freighter until your crew is assembled.

This is quite funny. On one hand we have people arguing that the punishment for ganking is non-exiatent or not harsh enough. On the other, we have dear Ms. Lost here arguing that gankers aren't doing things aside from being logged off while waiting for a gank target.

Criminal pilots are chased by faction police (FacPo) each time they land on grid (30 seconds after landing). FacPo are much weaker than CONCORD, they can be tanked and even killed, though not by your standard ganakalyst. Even if you can tank them, they're a significant disadvantage for the criminal.

The result is that the pilot literally cannot perform any task while waiting for his next target. I'm not so sure about you, but being forced to sit logged in doing precisely nothing isn't compelling game play.

The gankers are simply making the best use of their time as a result of the overzealous crime watch penalties.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#366 - 2015-11-18 13:14:30 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:

I never said freighters should be allowed to auto pilot or be AFK.


Yes, you did, and have done so repeatedly. You're literally here arguing for the imaginary right of people to play the game wrong. It's pretty much all you ever post.



Please show me an accurate post where I claimed a freighter should be allowed to auto pilot or play afk. (key word is accurate - don't add in what you feel I'm saying - you've proven you are not good at that)

It's simply not true.

I've never claimed to be a prolific ganker (another fantasy you're trying to create). We were interested in it. As a small group (not being able to field enough cats to gank a freighter) we chose to gank mission cream puffs. We did it for roughly 3 weeks. We made several billion isk and our method did not involve holding the target via bumping - we were all online, active and at the ready. It normally took several hours of waiting until we go the right target in the right situation to pull the trigger.

All in all, we made several billion, but once we solved the math equation (cost and number of BC vs. value of loot dropped) it became too easy to hold our interest. We occaisionally (once per year or so) take a vacation to Apanake and nab a few marauders under the guise of 'teambuilding' but tbh it's mostly just to shake things up a bit.

Really good at marauder ganking - yes
Prolific - no (it's kind of boring in our view)
AFK and pinged to gank - no (which probably is what makes it boring)

I don't like afk as much as the next guy. You're barking up the wrong tree there.

I'm not dealing in imaginary claims (like you) or imaginary rights that eve players have. I'm just giving honest opinions. Your opinions are also welcome. What isn't welcome is when you 'add lib' and then argue with yourself. Feel free to argue with what I say, but please please, don't make poop up.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#367 - 2015-11-18 13:20:29 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:

Please show me an accurate post where I claimed a freighter should be allowed to auto pilot or play afk.


Heck, just go through this thread.

Whether you want to admit it or not, asking for ganking to be nerfed in any way buffs afk hauling and mining.

Which is what you want, you just won't admit it without slipping up like you did on the previous page. Your smokescreen isn't fooling anyone, hence why you're in full blown defensive mode.

Quote:

I don't like afk as much as the next guy.


Once again, you lie. You are, and have been repeatedly in the past, arguing to massively buff afk gameplay in highsec.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#368 - 2015-11-18 13:25:21 UTC
Hiasa Kite wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
You are correct, I don't want you to have a reason to log in and gank someone. I want the game to support you being logged in on your ganking character and being engaged in ganking (the waiting part until a viable target is located). I don't want you ratting guristas for 3 hours and then logging ratter pilot off, logging ganker pilot on while another character in a mach 'holds' the freighter until your crew is assembled.

This is quite funny. On one hand we have people arguing that the punishment for ganking is non-exiatent or not harsh enough. On the other, we have dear Ms. Lost here arguing that gankers aren't doing things aside from being logged off while waiting for a gank target.

Criminal pilots are chased by faction police (FacPo) each time they land on grid (30 seconds after landing). FacPo are much weaker than CONCORD, they can be tanked and even killed, though not by your standard ganakalyst. Even if you can tank them, they're a significant disadvantage for the criminal.

The result is that the pilot literally cannot perform any task while waiting for his next target. I'm not so sure about you, but being forced to sit logged in doing precisely nothing isn't compelling game play.

The gankers are simply making the best use of their time as a result of the overzealous crime watch penalties.



i suggust you look into the facpo and how they work. Its not hard to bait them off and tank them somewhere else in system leaving others to operate without any issues.
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#369 - 2015-11-18 13:35:48 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
Hiasa Kite wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
You are correct, I don't want you to have a reason to log in and gank someone. I want the game to support you being logged in on your ganking character and being engaged in ganking (the waiting part until a viable target is located). I don't want you ratting guristas for 3 hours and then logging ratter pilot off, logging ganker pilot on while another character in a mach 'holds' the freighter until your crew is assembled.

This is quite funny. On one hand we have people arguing that the punishment for ganking is non-exiatent or not harsh enough. On the other, we have dear Ms. Lost here arguing that gankers aren't doing things aside from being logged off while waiting for a gank target.

Criminal pilots are chased by faction police (FacPo) each time they land on grid (30 seconds after landing). FacPo are much weaker than CONCORD, they can be tanked and even killed, though not by your standard ganakalyst. Even if you can tank them, they're a significant disadvantage for the criminal.

The result is that the pilot literally cannot perform any task while waiting for his next target. I'm not so sure about you, but being forced to sit logged in doing precisely nothing isn't compelling game play.

The gankers are simply making the best use of their time as a result of the overzealous crime watch penalties.



i suggust you look into the facpo and how they work. Its not hard to bait them off and tank them somewhere else in system leaving others to operate without any issues.

Leaving those who undertake the task at risk and necessitating an even larger group of people for the purposes of freighter ganking.

Why do this when a smaller fleet can simply remain docked and do whatever they want while they wait? Like I said, it's the most efficient use of their time.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#370 - 2015-11-18 13:38:19 UTC
ping play is pretty much the same as sitting on a titan waiting for the cyno bait to light a cyno

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#371 - 2015-11-18 14:11:39 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
ping play is pretty much the same as sitting on a titan waiting for the cyno bait to light a cyno


"ping play" is what you get when you have anti fun "time out" mechanics, as EVE has so many of.

Since this isn't a sporting event and there's no trophy on the line, people are bound to try and find ways to have fun in spite of anti fun mechanics. When they slapped us with jump fatigue, people turned to wormholes. And then, just like with highsec, CCP finds themselves once again nerfing fun wherever it's found, in service to some grand concept vision in which they know better than us what fun is. Although the vision is more than likely the excuse given for changes made due to tears.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with marginalizing mechanics that are not fun. It is not only to be expected, but celebrated, and mechanics that players are consistently having to work around should be suspended and re-evaluated. That's what most people call holistic game design.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#372 - 2015-11-18 14:18:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
Hiasa Kite wrote:
Correct. However, bumping does not prevent alignment, it prevents alignment with a specific coordinate. This is an important distinction you're missing.

Then you sir are a complete fail at bumping and you should go stand in the corner and hang your head in shame.

Hiasa Kite wrote:
Speed and vector are two different things. You very much have the requisite speed for warp while bumped, just not the vector. That is unless the bumper happens to bump you toward a warpable object such as a celestial, bookmark or fleetmate.

It is extremely easy too figure out how to bump someone in a way that reduces their "speed" in the direction they were trying to warp WITHOUT imparting speed along any other "vector". If you do not or cannot understand such a simple principal of how physics is applied in this game then you are hardly qualified to make comment on this specific aspect of bumping.

Marbles on a smooth, flat, level surface are an excellent tool for the exploration of and gaining a basic understanding of this skill that you obviously lack.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#373 - 2015-11-18 14:39:23 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:

Please show me an accurate post where I claimed a freighter should be allowed to auto pilot or play afk.


Heck, just go through this thread.

Whether you want to admit it or not, asking for ganking to be nerfed in any way buffs afk hauling and mining.

Which is what you want, you just won't admit it without slipping up like you did on the previous page. Your smokescreen isn't fooling anyone, hence why you're in full blown defensive mode.

Quote:

I don't like afk as much as the next guy.


Once again, you lie. You are, and have been repeatedly in the past, arguing to massively buff afk gameplay in highsec.



I'm asking for proof of what you say, not generalized summaries of your interpretations.

Your just spouting what you want me to be saying (you know - silly stuff that you can argue with), you're not actually quoting me.

Do it right or don't do it at all - You can have imaginary arguments w/out pooping up this thread.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#374 - 2015-11-18 15:44:15 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:

Do it right or don't do it at all


If only you could manage to apply this rationale to freighter pilots. But alas, gotta defend that narrative to be afk.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#375 - 2015-11-18 15:49:51 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
to get it away from the gate so it cant crash it? get it out of range of sentry guns? sorta like a murderer dragging a victim up a dark alley Pirate


A rather apt way of putting it.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#376 - 2015-11-18 16:51:59 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:

Please show me an accurate post where I claimed a freighter should be allowed to auto pilot or play afk.


Heck, just go through this thread.

Whether you want to admit it or not, asking for ganking to be nerfed in any way buffs afk hauling and mining.

Which is what you want, you just won't admit it without slipping up like you did on the previous page. Your smokescreen isn't fooling anyone, hence why you're in full blown defensive mode.

Quote:

I don't like afk as much as the next guy.


Once again, you lie. You are, and have been repeatedly in the past, arguing to massively buff afk gameplay in highsec.



I'm asking for proof of what you say, not generalized summaries of your interpretations.

Your just spouting what you want me to be saying (you know - silly stuff that you can argue with), you're not actually quoting me.

Do it right or don't do it at all - You can have imaginary arguments w/out pooping up this thread.


Hiding all of Karrous's posts improves your forum experience at least 300%.
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#377 - 2015-11-18 16:55:19 UTC
he actually talks sense so your only hiding from the truth Big smile

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#378 - 2015-11-18 17:02:26 UTC
Oh...yeah. That must be it.

He's got some kind of mass production facility for strawmen, spouts drivel like it was reality affirming truth, and if his actual personality is anything like what he puts out on here it's no wonder he can't infiltrate red frog, he would trigger a great many practicing sadists I know into ejecting him from their ranks.

But no, it must be all that true talk that I am ignoring.

Or maybe it's because he isn't actually joining conversations. Right around the time he admits that there is nothing that can be said to make him treat anything you say as being honest is when you should realize his only goal is to spew troll vomit on everything within a mile of him.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#379 - 2015-11-18 17:19:50 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Granting a criminal flags isn't a nerf for taking part in a gank. It's an invitation to even more PvP. You should embrace that


Now that is, IMO, a lie.

How? It does not stop it. It's a very mild repercussion that almost none would take advantage of. The people ganking always like to scream "but the non-consensual PvP must flow!"... It just allows more PvP. Surely that's not so much risk it would deter a gank?


Simple really, you have already noted it would impose additional costs. Raising costs is basically a nerf. We can think of it as like a new tax or a regulation. Now you must fit a module which in turn will activate a timer when activated letting others freely shoot you. That is very much a nerf.

And no, it is not that the non-consensual PvP must flow, but that there should not be arbitrary restrictions on non-consensual PvP in a sandbox game. If the outcome is that we all sit around singing kumbaya my lord while holding hands…fine, but if the outcome also contains non-consensual PvP…then fine.

Further it is coming pretty close to a lie to state it “allows” more PvP. Nothing is stopping your from imposing PvP on the bumping ship other than your own preferences not to suffer the penalties for doing so. You should not get a free pass on that point, IMO, simply because you are somehow better or special compared to those who do not share your view of the game.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#380 - 2015-11-18 17:22:34 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Granting a criminal flags isn't a nerf for taking part in a gank. It's an invitation to even more PvP. You should embrace that

Yet there is zero reason why you should need an invitation to gank someone bumping a freighter. I've already demonstrated how little doing so impacts sec status, and others have shown that the isk cost of the ships to gank the bumper are also negligible. You only need to step outside your self perceived delusion that ganking makes you a bad person to realize that you don't need further mechanics that will ultimately only serve to make bad game play safer.

Regardless of how minor the penalty, self defense from unprovoked aggression should not result in penalties.


To add to the chorus, you have other options than shooting the bumper. Look, it is super simple, if you wait until you are being bumped you have done things very, very wrong. Let me return to one of my preferred ways of stating things, probabilistically.

P(Ganked|Being Bumped) >> P(Ganked|Not Being Bumped).

That is if you are being bumped your probability of being ganked is much, much higher than if you are not being bumped. So don’t get bumped. Problem solved.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online