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[CSM Blog] December CSM Summit Report

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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#161 - 2012-01-07 02:25:10 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:

You're not in the CSM, you weren't at the Summit Meeting, you didn't help create the Blog and you didn't post this thread. Your opinion and remarks are irrelevant unless directed towards Seleene.

The only thing the internet did was allow you to self appoint yourself as the Official Trollperson, which you do very well.


I also missed the part of the OP where CSM Seleene requested that nobody else attempt to educate people who post in this forum. Waitaminite.....

I never claimed to be at the Summit, help create the Blog, but I am fairly certain I posted in this thread. My opinion and remarks are exactly as relevant as yours, so.... actually irrelevant is pretty apt.

If I were sober enough to remember what moronic claptrap I initially responded to, I'd .... something. Lost my train of thought.


As to your final thought, Why thank you, I do try. But it's either "allow you to be the self-appointed Official Trollperson" or "allow you to appoint yourself the Official Trollperson" attempting to use both as in "self appoint yourself" is improper grammar and redundant. "as" is also superfluous.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#162 - 2012-01-07 02:37:40 UTC
Disdaine wrote:
What the hell is this :

The Office of the Chairman: A ~chill place~ for constituent issues
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=29569

Could someone explain to this dbag that he is supposed to represent the entire playerbase and not the 5,365 alt accounts who voted him in.


As far as I can remember there is nothing in the CSM rules or his campaign promises that says he's required to represent anyone other than those who voted for him, or even that.

That said, I think the Mittani has been a pretty good CSM chair. His 4 legs help with stability, and his pillowy softness makes lounging much more.... wait, where was I. Right. I think Mittens represents those players who joined wanting an MMO in which PvP activity pervades every part of life. Even though I was hurt to the tune of a hundred million Isk by the Ice interdiction (I wasn't paying enough attention to buy mass quantities of topes at the beginning), I thought it was awesome and perfectly in line with the spirit of the game.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Disdaine
#163 - 2012-01-07 03:03:50 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

As far as I can remember there is nothing in the CSM rules or his campaign promises that says he's required to represent anyone other than those who voted for him, or even that.


http://www.eveonline.com/download/devblog/CSMSummary.pdf
Quote:

The purpose of the CSM is to represent society interests to CCP. This requires
active engagement with the player community


Quote:
• Engage the populace on all issue debates and discussions
• Represent the public views on issues to the CCP Council
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#164 - 2012-01-07 03:17:18 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Disdaine wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

As far as I can remember there is nothing in the CSM rules or his campaign promises that says he's required to represent anyone other than those who voted for him, or even that.


http://www.eveonline.com/download/devblog/CSMSummary.pdf
Quote:

The purpose of the CSM is to represent society interests to CCP. This requires
active engagement with the player community


Quote:
• Engage the populace on all issue debates and discussions
• Represent the public views on issues to the CCP Council


Active engagement. The Mittani is nothing if not actively engaged. Weather you like his methods or not is irrelevant.

Engage the populace in debate. Yep, he yells on the forums like we all do.

Represent public views on issues. This doesn't say advocate, and I've never seen any evidence saying he doesn't read CCP the F&I forums as a bedtime story. From all accounts he is very outspoken in bringing CCP ideas to help improve the game.

Again, he has no obligation to advocate ideas that you like. If you don't like the way he represents the players, you can vote for someone else. You could also run against him, or organize a group to load the next CSM with people other than Mittens. That's how you deal with elected officials whose policies you don't like. Until then, he still has no obligation to do stuff you like.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Disdaine
#165 - 2012-01-07 03:42:24 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

If you don't like the way he represents the players


The Mittani wrote:
i only represent my constituents
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#166 - 2012-01-07 04:47:41 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Disdaine wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

If you don't like the way he represents the players


The Mittani wrote:
i only represent my constituents


Per Wikipedia
"An electoral district (also known as a constituency, riding, ward, division, electoral area or electorate) is a distinct territorial subdivision for holding a separate election for one or more seats in a legislative body. Generally, only voters who reside within the geographical bounds of an electoral district (constituents) are permitted to vote in an election held there."

A constituent is a member of an electoral district.

So he represents everyone. What he was saying was that he only represents the interests of those who voted for him. Nobody who ever was on the winning side of an election has ever asked the elected official to represent the interests of the defeated group. And given that there is no equivalent of a constitution to protect the rights of minority voters, they get screwed. Representative, Unconstitutional Democracy is like that. FYI: He won with around 6000 votes if memory serves. There are often 50,000 people logged in at any given time (and something like 200,000 active accounts). Not his fault that you can't seem to organize enough voters to unseat him.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Disdaine
#167 - 2012-01-07 06:59:19 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

Per Wikipedia
"An electoral district (also known as a constituency, riding, ward, division, electoral area or electorate) is a distinct territorial subdivision for holding a separate election for one or more seats in a legislative body. Generally, only voters who reside within the geographical bounds of an electoral district (constituents) are permitted to vote in an election held there."

A constituent is a member of an electoral district.

So he represents everyone. What he was saying was that he only represents the interests of those who voted for him. Nobody who ever was on the winning side of an election has ever asked the elected official to represent the interests of the defeated group. And given that there is no equivalent of a constitution to protect the rights of minority voters, they get screwed. Representative, Unconstitutional Democracy is like that. FYI: He won with around 6000 votes if memory serves. There are often 50,000 people logged in at any given time (and something like 200,000 active accounts). Not his fault that you can't seem to organize enough voters to unseat him.


He is not referring to his constituents as being the electoral district comprising every eve player. He is referring to HIS constituents as in the people who voted for him.

The Mittani wrote:
Every CSM represents their own constituents. Some have delusions about 'representing everyone'. I do not.

The Mittani wrote:
I represent nullsec, hisec greifers, and anyone else who understands that EVE is a place for war and murder, not safety and weakness. As it happens, the voice of my constituents is far louder than the OP's cry for help; that is why I am the Chairman. That I scam, kill, and gank and conquer are all reasons why my constituents feel that I represent their viewpoints accurately, and voted for me in the first place.

Nice try though. I can define things too :

Constituent : a person who authorizes another to act in his or her behalf
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/constituent
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#168 - 2012-01-07 07:02:08 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Ok, now show that what he's doing is somehow against the CSM rules.

EDIT

The Mittani wrote:
I represent their viewpoints accurately, and voted for me in the first place.


Their viewpoints can roughly be translated from Mittenspeak to mean their interests.

He represents everyone, but only represents the interests of those who voted for him.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#169 - 2012-01-07 07:25:14 UTC
To this day I am still waiting for someone to detail exactly how mittens has actually done* anything as a CSM rep that harms anyone's game. All I ever see is people going to great lengths to prove that he's the leader of goonswarm therefore WHARGLE GARBLE MISCONDUNCT CORRUPTION EULA IMPEACH TERRORISM GRIEFER


I didn't vote for him with either of my accounts (Trebor got mine), but I'm extremely satisfied with how he and the CSM as a whole have not only represented me but advocated my interests. I disagree with him on a couple of things, but on the whole, CSM6 has done almost nothing but good for EVE, and I once again challenge anyone to provide a concrete example of something mittens or the CSM have actually done that harmed their game.


(*Being rude to idiots on the forums hardly counts.)

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Disdaine
#170 - 2012-01-07 07:40:09 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

He represents everyone, but only represents the interests of those who voted for him.


Quote:
Some have delusions about 'representing everyone'. I do not.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#171 - 2012-01-07 07:48:32 UTC
Disdaine wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

He represents everyone, but only represents the interests of those who voted for him.


Quote:
Some have delusions about 'representing [the interests of] everyone'. I do not.


An elected official, by definition, represents everyone who had the ability to vote for them.

Whose interests they represent is the interesting question.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#172 - 2012-01-07 09:41:55 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Engage the populace in debate. Yep, he yells on the forums like we all do.

Mittens isn't really the yelling type.

The idiots claiming that CSMs have to represent everyone's terrible ideas to CCP are basically the same sorts of idiots who hassle retail staff by saying 'I'm a customer, that means I pay your wages so I'm technically your boss and you have to do whatever I say' whilst making ludicrous demands, and its so very satisfying to see the same look of bemused rage on their faces as they're laughed at and shown the door.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#173 - 2012-01-07 10:00:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarnis McPieksu
Anyone is welcome to try and lobby his harebrained idea to any CSM member.

If you fail at convincing even a single CSM member, you probably fail for a reason that has something to do with your idea.

CSM members were elected based on democratic voting process - if you are unhappy with that you are welcome to run yourself or campaign for a member you think would represent your interests. If you cannot find even a CSM candidate to support your ideas (let alone campaign for him to get him elected)... it probably is just you and your harebrained ideas and concepts and you are a minority. Live with it.

(Goons don't vote for Mittani because Mittani says so, Goons vote for him because they think he would be pro at representing their ideas. Democracy is wonderful, isn't it?)
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#174 - 2012-01-07 11:17:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
Anyone is welcome to try and lobby his harebrained idea to any CSM member.

If you fail at convincing even a single CSM member, you probably fail for a reason that has something to do with your idea.


no no no you see I am a constituent and the CSM represent me, that means they're honour bound to listen politely for an hour to whatever pants-on-head gamebreaking feature I crapped out this morning, run directly to Skype to grab the first available Dev and insist it is added to Eve immediately, stamping their feet and throwing spoons until it appears in the forthcoming patch notes. A voter has spoken, make it so, Soundwave!

If they don't do this they're in breach of the NDA, the EULA, the Geneva Convention, and possibly the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which means that Mittani should be lowered into a live Icelandic volcano head first as punishment, and CCP should wrap up the entire CSM as a failed experiment and go back to inhaling from cans of rotten shark fin to get inspiration for the future direction of Eve.

(did that cover everything?)

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#175 - 2012-01-07 11:23:18 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
possibly the Second Law of Thermodynamics,)


You handsome devil, you. Owen Wilson here speaks truth.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#176 - 2012-01-07 12:28:59 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
...which means that Mittani should be lowered into a live Icelandic volcano head first as punishment...

Head first? Wouldn't that be the merciful way to do it?

I mean, this is EVE!

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
Ambo
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#177 - 2012-01-07 17:14:32 UTC
Fascinating read. Thanks for the writeup.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#178 - 2012-01-07 17:51:49 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Just a quick thought. Destructable stations mean that someone could destroy every station and not rebuild them in order to disable nullsec just for the fun of it. And also there's the issue with neutral assets in destroyed stations... how does CCP plan to deal with a potential break of the rule that "docked is safe"? By making neutrals indestructable so station owners just keep the corpo hangars empty and contract all stuff to neutral alts if they can't hold the station? Or will CCP really go and break the "docked is safe" rule?

If i was CCP, *I* would not trust nullsec to the gratuitously assumed good will of bored players; destructable game rules are a call to destructable gameplay, which is a call to destroying the game.


I'm not convinced about fully destructable stations since its just one more deterrent in a long list of deterrents for people looking at making the move into zerosec, but I'd be very much onboard with wrecking the **** out of them in ways that make them completely non-functional until repaired, and a gigantic pain in the ass to repair (and by gigantic pain in the ass to repair I'm thinking deployment of very expensive, very bulky, very vulnerable repair structures which slowly patch up a wrecked station, not just triaging on the undock until the shields come back).


All this sounds well, but, much as the existing nullsec mechanics, it would make life more miserable to smallholders. What?
Brujo Loco
Brujeria Teologica
#179 - 2012-01-07 20:16:11 UTC
Quote:
In other words - one step at a time, make all the pieces fit, avoid ~awesome~.



If this is true, then everything else is just a bonus.

Inner Sayings of BrujoLoco: http://eve-files.com/sig/brujoloco
Forum Fighter
Doomheim
#180 - 2012-01-07 20:55:10 UTC
How many times did Mittani say: "Sucking chest wounds?"

Bearer of the 1600mm Tinfoil Hat™