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Vindicators or Machariels for small pvp squad? (have loki for webs)

Author
Dagnar
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#21 - 2015-11-15 15:17:33 UTC
Will ECM be a problem? I'm guessing one ECCM is necessary. With links and 1 ECCM the machariel has a sensor strength of 80+
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#22 - 2015-11-16 08:40:47 UTC
Dagnar wrote:
Plus for vindi is the nice dps and tracking, the web bonus isn't so useful because the Loki will be doing that job.

Never underestimate the power of Vindi-webs; yeah, your Loki can slow things down a little... Your Vindi's stop them in their tracks.

Dagnar wrote:
Yeah I like vindiator dps. Only thing is if our opponents know we use vindicators (they will know our setup) I think they'll just max tank kinetic/thermal. Good thing about mach is choosing damage type.

If they really do max out their Kin/Therm they'll get torn up by the Vindi's drones because they'll have massive holes to them... not to mention that even with very high resists the Vindicator still hurts quite a bit.

All that said...
I would go with Machs in your case.
Because Heavy Neuts.
The Vindi has to lose a gun to gain any utility and thus lose damage, the Mach's utility high is a far greater consideration (IMHO) than the damage choice.
'phoons are another possibility, as someone already mentioned; or perhaps you could throw a 'geddon into the mix? (RMLMs and long range heavy neuts might give you a few more options against smaller ships - more than one 'geddon and you probably need to go RHMLs to avoid missing out too much damage).
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2015-11-16 08:54:29 UTC
Swap the loki's for Bhaalgorns and get a pair of nestors... that would be a sweet looking fleet right there...
TBH just sit everyone in Nestors...

No Worries

Valkin Mordirc
#24 - 2015-11-16 12:37:04 UTC
If it's for Highsec War-decs, A small gang set up like that isn't really going to capable of catch anything, seems something along the lines of "Whelp, or be whelped," Depending on who you are fighting and what the situation is, you will most likely have little to no fights.


With The Vindi's you are going to hell slow, and will not catch anything, people will see you coming and GTFO or bat phone in reinforcements.

For Highsec Vindi's do great as gank ships, Undock once somebody has aggressed, dual web and hope the DPS will murderize your target's face before the timer runs out. That's why the web bonus is very strong on the ship. Your blasters hit for almost full damage on any cruiser. Geddons and other neut based ships work well with them as you can break the targets tank even faster.

Mach are okay to roam with, the warp speed bonus they get is super helpful for convenience purpose. But you still align slowly without nano's. and by the way you are talking it seems you want to try and do a Armor style brawling thing.

If you want to go expensive I would say switch the Battleships for T3's, Proteus or HAM Legions. And throw in a fast tackle ceptor or something of the ilk. General in Wardec's it's about catching somebody off guard as the ability to run for cover is very very easy.
#DeleteTheWeak
Valkin Mordirc
#25 - 2015-11-17 12:17:36 UTC
Dagnar wrote:
Will ECM be a problem? I'm guessing one ECCM is necessary. With links and 1 ECCM the machariel has a sensor strength of 80+



Sorry for the double post,


But again it really depends on who you are fighting. Wardeccing requires a ton of research to be done at a peak efficiency. You need to look at Killboards check what they tend to be comfortable with and that's what you will generally find. Getting jammed really sucks, but bringing ECCM to a fight where you don't need it is a wasted mid.


Also as a rule of thumb it's a good idea to keep modules like ECCM in your Cargo in case you need to switch. Generally your list should be for basically any ship,

Ammo
Nanite
Scram
Secondary prop mod,
Secondary web
ECCM (For ECM)
Sensor Booster (For Damps)
Cap Booster or Cap Batteries for Neuts.
You could also bring the lowslot versions of Hyper Spactials, Whatever they are called to help with travel times, if you have an alt leading you, it really shouldn't be a problem.
#DeleteTheWeak
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#26 - 2015-11-17 17:24:49 UTC
The Mach is almost universally better than the Vindi. It has fewer range limitations, cheats the warp limitation, cheats the speed and align limitations of battleships, and isn't even that expensive to fit out. A t2 fit Mach functions just fine in every fitting type, arty/AC, shield or armor. Anything the Vindi can do, a cruiser hull can do better except for apply DPS to a large, immobile target, so unless you're beating on POCOs all day, the Mach wins hands down. Just bring a Loki or Munin and walah, it's like a Vindi but not agonizingly slow.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#27 - 2015-11-17 17:30:54 UTC
Valacus wrote:
The Mach is almost universally better than the Vindi. It has fewer range limitations, cheats the warp limitation, cheats the speed and align limitations of battleships, and isn't even that expensive to fit out. A t2 fit Mach functions just fine in every fitting type, arty/AC, shield or armor. Anything the Vindi can do, a cruiser hull can do better except for apply DPS to a large, immobile target, so unless you're beating on POCOs all day, the Mach wins hands down. Just bring a Loki or Munin and walah, it's like a Vindi but not agonizingly slow.


You never flew a vindicator, did you? With 3 90% webs, you can use Void against an AB dramiel at 1km.
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#28 - 2015-11-17 19:38:38 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Valacus wrote:
The Mach is almost universally better than the Vindi. It has fewer range limitations, cheats the warp limitation, cheats the speed and align limitations of battleships, and isn't even that expensive to fit out. A t2 fit Mach functions just fine in every fitting type, arty/AC, shield or armor. Anything the Vindi can do, a cruiser hull can do better except for apply DPS to a large, immobile target, so unless you're beating on POCOs all day, the Mach wins hands down. Just bring a Loki or Munin and walah, it's like a Vindi but not agonizingly slow.


You never flew a vindicator, did you? With 3 90% webs, you can use Void against an AB dramiel at 1km.


If he's stupid enough to let you catch him. The vindicator is wicked slow and if it's blaster fit it has an extremely short range. They're designed as armor tanks and based off Gallente hulls, so they have a huge mass and align like a pregnant cow. They don't accelerate particularly well, and don't forget battleship scan resolution, which means the Dramiel could have warped out, warped back in, gone for pizza, then back out again before you ever had a chance to lock. The Machariel suffers from only two battleship related symptoms, and that is scan resolution(of which it still has a 50% advantage on the Vindi) and signature radius. Every other battleship handicap it cheats and that is more than enough to propel it to the top of the food chain by a massive margin. Never mind that it uses capless guns and can fit a massive armor tank using nothing but T2 modules and T1 rigs, only unlike the Vindi it's based off Minmatar hulls so they align and move quickly, and that's still including a full rack of arties. With the way battleships are right now, there is simply no way the Vindicator could ever compete with the Machariel in PvP. The Mach clutches all the weaknesses that hold other battleships back. This is doubly true in small gangs, where speed and agility are key.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#29 - 2015-11-18 13:20:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
Almost all highsec engagements happen at extremely close ranges and they usually involve one of the involved parties attempting to escape at some point. Subsequently having the extremely high DPS of vindicators as well as their webs is much more useful than machariels even though they're faster and have better range. For ECM woes just carry two racial ECCM in your cargo and refit as required.

Having someone come along in a bhaalgorn if you're expecting serious resistance is also a good idea.

Battleship fleets are, of course, only useful in specific circumstances and most of the time you'd be better off in armor T3s.

Never fly a shield doctrine in highsec unless you're hitting a structure or skirmishing in tornados, you'll die and people will laugh at you.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#30 - 2015-11-18 14:01:54 UTC
Valacus wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Valacus wrote:
The Mach is almost universally better than the Vindi. It has fewer range limitations, cheats the warp limitation, cheats the speed and align limitations of battleships, and isn't even that expensive to fit out. A t2 fit Mach functions just fine in every fitting type, arty/AC, shield or armor. Anything the Vindi can do, a cruiser hull can do better except for apply DPS to a large, immobile target, so unless you're beating on POCOs all day, the Mach wins hands down. Just bring a Loki or Munin and walah, it's like a Vindi but not agonizingly slow.


You never flew a vindicator, did you? With 3 90% webs, you can use Void against an AB dramiel at 1km.


If he's stupid enough to let you catch him. The vindicator is wicked slow and if it's blaster fit it has an extremely short range. They're designed as armor tanks and based off Gallente hulls, so they have a huge mass and align like a pregnant cow. They don't accelerate particularly well, and don't forget battleship scan resolution, which means the Dramiel could have warped out, warped back in, gone for pizza, then back out again before you ever had a chance to lock. The Machariel suffers from only two battleship related symptoms, and that is scan resolution(of which it still has a 50% advantage on the Vindi) and signature radius. Every other battleship handicap it cheats and that is more than enough to propel it to the top of the food chain by a massive margin. Never mind that it uses capless guns and can fit a massive armor tank using nothing but T2 modules and T1 rigs, only unlike the Vindi it's based off Minmatar hulls so they align and move quickly, and that's still including a full rack of arties. With the way battleships are right now, there is simply no way the Vindicator could ever compete with the Machariel in PvP. The Mach clutches all the weaknesses that hold other battleships back. This is doubly true in small gangs, where speed and agility are key.


That's a lot of words for *I indeed don't know what I'm talking about*.
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2015-11-18 15:22:40 UTC  |  Edited by: ChromeStriker
Lloyd Roses wrote:


That's a lot of words for *I indeed don't know what I'm talking about*.


Agreed... really want to know which mini hull the machs based off of....

I love my Vindi :) its basically a 22km bubble of death... (44km di Blink )

No Worries

Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#32 - 2015-11-22 08:47:23 UTC
*polishes Vindi*

*points out the 1800 dps guns + drones*

*looks at MJD and MWD*

*looks at 90% web with 14 km range*

*puts on a Barry White album and chills the wine*

Cool

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

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W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#33 - 2015-11-22 09:21:57 UTC
stop being horrible and dont do highsec pvp?



That said, vindis are the better ships for that kind of stuff.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#34 - 2015-11-23 00:23:07 UTC
Sometimes reading here is mindbending..

And some folks are terrible at math or have a very uncommon definiton of "small" gang - with force quadruplers.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Dagnar
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#35 - 2015-11-23 13:28:45 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Sometimes reading here is mindbending..

And some folks are terrible at math or have a very uncommon definiton of "small" gang - with force quadruplers.


Can you explain?
LordInvisible
Nova Ardour
#36 - 2015-11-23 14:46:36 UTC
Machariels.

Bumping is important part of HS warfare..
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