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[December] Command Destroyers

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Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#181 - 2015-11-17 17:51:03 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:




Exactly, CCP could even throw a softball at them and make an in-system message appear when someone uses the new module in HighSec. Something like "CONCORD Warning: Micro Jump Generator Activation Detected". This way the guys guarding the incursion fleet would have some precious forewarning before the command destroyers arrive.



just make a ship with this mod equipped be suspect all the time in high sec.


It doesn't work in highsec. The OP says so and there are like 100 comments about it not working in highsec.



i suggest reading the entire comment chain i was replying to.
non ficti0n
Job Center Plus
#182 - 2015-11-17 17:52:47 UTC
Can you jump sieged dreads?
Ripard Teg
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#183 - 2015-11-17 17:54:48 UTC
Rosal Milag wrote:
Ripard Teg wrote:
Do you get jumped when HIC pointed?

Do you get jumped when standard pointed?

Do you get jumped when bubbled?

Do you get jumped when moored (when mooring becomes a thing)?

You said capitals are immune. Are freighters and jump freighters also immune? What about Orcas? (Their status as capitals/not capitals is unclear.)

I'm a little bit uneasy about allowing this mod in low-sec for reasons I can't quite justify. Maybe it's just because it's only the second area-of-effect attack allowable in low-sec, after smart bombs. Did you consider making it null-sec only during the "let's see what players do with this" phase?


Did you read the OP? Scrams keep you from being jumped and the HIC is getting a scram to its focused point.

Yep, that's a good point, thanks. I'd forgotten the HIC point will include a scram now. The other questions remain, though.

aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#184 - 2015-11-17 18:03:45 UTC
Ripard Teg wrote:
Rosal Milag wrote:
Ripard Teg wrote:
Do you get jumped when HIC pointed?

Do you get jumped when standard pointed?

Do you get jumped when bubbled?

Do you get jumped when moored (when mooring becomes a thing)?

You said capitals are immune. Are freighters and jump freighters also immune? What about Orcas? (Their status as capitals/not capitals is unclear.)

I'm a little bit uneasy about allowing this mod in low-sec for reasons I can't quite justify. Maybe it's just because it's only the second area-of-effect attack allowable in low-sec, after smart bombs. Did you consider making it null-sec only during the "let's see what players do with this" phase?


Did you read the OP? Scrams keep you from being jumped and the HIC is getting a scram to its focused point.

Yep, that's a good point, thanks. I'd forgotten the HIC point will include a scram now. The other questions remain, though.

1. Standard -1 point , yes you get jumped.
2. Yes you can MJD MJFD while in a bubble.
3. No. Tethering makes you invulnerable, and you cannot be jumped while invulnerable.
4. Not sure, waiting on CCP to clarify.
Moraguth
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#185 - 2015-11-17 18:06:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Moraguth
Will activating the MJFG flag the person in any way (to give you a good 5 or 6 seconds to blow the ship up or get a scram on it without gate guns lighting you up)?

Are there any limitations (like with smartbombs) on how close you can be to a station/gate to activate the module?

If someone does catch me, and move me 100km away, does that flag me with a capsuleer pvp timer or anything similar?

Do semi-capital ships get moved? (Freighter, Orca, etc)

Will marauders with bastion mode activated be moved?

Will [EDIT: drifters] be moved? does that count as a hostile action towards them?

I saw that bombs/drones will be moved... will corpses and wrecks be moved? Will a wreck still be moved if it has an MTU tractoring it in?

......

When we see the full extent of how this module works, will it be the exact same mechanic (except for the 100km in a straight line part) for the Hand of God doomsday weapon that the titans will get?

I got a Feature Added!

Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn".  It is "uh-bad-in" dictionary.com/abaddon
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#186 - 2015-11-17 18:07:10 UTC
Rosal Milag wrote:
As was pointed out earlier, daisy-chaining two CD into your incursion fleet leaves no counterplay. Unless you are advocating that there should be a fleet on the gate to suicide on destroyers? Or to follow the destroyers inside the complex? How is this providing your "intense hand shaking game play" to be babysitting an incursion gate?


Garbage.

Onyx locks to 110km with a basic a wing commander.

If they are more than 200km away, even an ABing guardian can get clear of the landing zone.


Rosal Milag wrote:
What about the payouts? If incursions are now going to run with more people, then the payouts will need to be adjusted to reflect this, depending on what CCP decides is appropriate. If the current rewards for 10 people is "CCP approved" then adding two people to the fleet who cannot do anything else but anti-gank means 12 people is now what incursions are adjusted to maintain the status quo.


Ah the crux of it, MAH ISK/HOUR

Rosal Milag wrote:
Point is, in an incursion environment, there are methods to remove all counterplay aside from using suicide ships on the Command Destroyers, which by the way, is not going to be well received by anyone.


Point is, you're wrong, you just aren't willing to make the effort.

Again, this is the very thinnest of veils over MAH ISK/HOUR MUST BE PROTECTED BY MECHANICS AND NOT ME.

Effort is for everyone else but the blingmobile guys, right?
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#187 - 2015-11-17 18:16:01 UTC
afkalt wrote:
There is instant counterplay.

You can scram it, thus shutting off the module AND tackling the ship. Which is both flashy and surrounded by several thousand DPS. It'll have a bad time.

Clutching at straws to justify implementing a bad mechanic as usual I see AFK, you did enough of that already in the HIC thread, one might think you have a hidden agenda. It is obvious this won't be allowed in highsec for more reasons that incursion fleets.

As for the ship, they look really interesting, looking forward to finding out how they are going to be used. I also really like that you are moving links to a smaller class of ship to help small roaming gangs.

Also I'm looking forward to the RnK video involving these at some point... *chuckles*
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#188 - 2015-11-17 18:18:42 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
afkalt wrote:
There is instant counterplay.

You can scram it, thus shutting off the module AND tackling the ship. Which is both flashy and surrounded by several thousand DPS. It'll have a bad time.

Clutching at straws to justify implementing a bad mechanic as usual I see AFK, you did enough of that already in the HIC thread, one might think you have a hidden agenda. It is obvious this won't be allowed in highsec for more reasons that incursion fleets.

As for the ship, they look really interesting, looking forward to finding out how they are going to be used. I also really like that you are moving links to a smaller class of ship to help small roaming gangs.

Also I'm looking forward to the RnK video involving these at some point... *chuckles*



Oh do buzz off if you've no argument other than 'I don't like it'.

We shouldn't be disallowing interesting mechanics to pander to people's laziness.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#189 - 2015-11-17 18:20:29 UTC
Luscius Uta wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Alyssia Benar wrote:
Still no answer to whether we can jump Caps or not. :(


You cannot jump caps. Sorry I missed that in the OP, it's added now.


Does that include Orcas and Freighters? What about bastioned Marauders?

Good point, I'd suggest this definitely shouldn't work on a Bastioned Marauder either.
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#190 - 2015-11-17 18:21:50 UTC
Darian en Chasteaux wrote:
Minmatar Bifrost Missiles???

With a 6km range for pulling this is obsurd; Minmatar ships need GUNS not missiles; let the Caldari use them; UNLESS the role for these command dessies is purely defensive in nature (except for one obvious role); not good for soloing either; these single role ships are probly useless.

In a small fleet it's another story; am I missing something here? I am mostly a solo player; are these ships designed more for fleet action?

In a defensive role missiles may be okay; defender missiles? pretty limited.

Darian


its not a solo ship mate. It wasnt designed for it.
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#191 - 2015-11-17 18:23:30 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Alyssia Benar wrote:
Still no answer to whether we can jump Caps or not. :(


You cannot jump caps. Sorry I missed that in the OP, it's added now.


What ships are considered "capitals"? Freighters? Jump Freighters? Rorqual? Orca? I assume carriers, dreads, supers, and Titans are considered capitals, but I'm not sure about the other capital ship classes?


Also, can a ship be jumped that is in the process of docking? In other words, between the period the invulnerability ends and the docking request actually happens? There is usually a few seconds between the two. I just see this ship class as a counter to the current mechanic of ******** station games, but at the same time I don't want them to open a new door of ******** station games. They close the door on ships that cannot dock due to a weapons timer, but they could also open the door to making every single ship that undocks vulnerable to a gank if they can be caught between the dock request and docking accepted.

If you had several of these things with a 9 second timer, you could start spooling up about 1 second apart about 1 second after the target undocked, do a reverse scram line (ie first one scrams the next and so on to prevent the following guys from jumping) and presto, the target ship will always be jumped away from station. This would even catch insta-warpers that waited too long to warp.

.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#192 - 2015-11-17 18:23:55 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:




Exactly, CCP could even throw a softball at them and make an in-system message appear when someone uses the new module in HighSec. Something like "CONCORD Warning: Micro Jump Generator Activation Detected". This way the guys guarding the incursion fleet would have some precious forewarning before the command destroyers arrive.



just make a ship with this mod equipped be suspect all the time in high sec.


It doesn't work in highsec. The OP says so and there are like 100 comments about it not working in highsec.


And we're disagreeing with that and trying to find ways to make CCP change it's mind, random stranger who didn't take the time to read all the posts in this sub-discussion.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#193 - 2015-11-17 18:24:24 UTC
My only thought would be to push the Link Number to 2, 1 Link means people will still likely fall back on other options 2 on the other hand allows say Speed/Tackle Range or Siege/Speed or Armour/Tackle range.

Makes running just a command dessie more practical.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#194 - 2015-11-17 18:24:25 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
afkalt wrote:
There is instant counterplay.

You can scram it, thus shutting off the module AND tackling the ship. Which is both flashy and surrounded by several thousand DPS. It'll have a bad time.

Clutching at straws to justify implementing a bad mechanic as usual I see AFK, you did enough of that already in the HIC thread, one might think you have a hidden agenda. It is obvious this won't be allowed in highsec for more reasons that incursion fleets.

As for the ship, they look really interesting, looking forward to finding out how they are going to be used. I also really like that you are moving links to a smaller class of ship to help small roaming gangs.

Also I'm looking forward to the RnK video involving these at some point... *chuckles*



Oh do buzz off if you've no argument other than 'I don't like it'.

We shouldn't be disallowing interesting mechanics to pander to people's laziness.

I actually like the command destroyer as you seem to have completely missed in my post which you quoted. I just don't like your terrible idea of allowing them to use the MMJD in high sec for VERY obvious reasons.
Aurthes
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#195 - 2015-11-17 18:26:20 UTC
Can you please update with the native resists? I didn't see it in the spreadsheet or posts.
Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#196 - 2015-11-17 18:27:27 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

ATTRIBUTES


Sweet.

I know this may not be your speciality. But now that B.I.A.B. has been launched, what limitations are we looking at for having command processors applying to purples on grid rather than fleet members in system? The ability to have command dessies warping to and from grids when and where certain link bonus's are needed sounds amazing.
l
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#197 - 2015-11-17 18:28:59 UTC
Moraguth wrote:
Will activating the MJFG flag the person in any way (to give you a good 5 or 6 seconds to blow the ship up or get a scram on it without gate guns lighting you up)?

Are there any limitations (like with smartbombs) on how close you can be to a station/gate to activate the module?

If someone does catch me, and move me 100km away, does that flag me with a capsuleer pvp timer or anything similar?

Do semi-capital ships get moved? (Freighter, Orca, etc)

Will marauders with bastion mode activated be moved?

Will concord be moved? does that count as a hostile action towards concord?

I saw that bombs/drones will be moved... will corpses and wrecks be moved? Will a wreck still be moved if it has an MTU tractoring it in?

......

When we see the full extent of how this module works, will it be the exact same mechanic (except for the 100km in a straight line part) for the Hand of God doomsday weapon that the titans will get?


I know your group can be slow, but did you read any of this?

Why would a flag be needed, Its banned from Hi-sec.
If your moving orca/freighter in low/null without support it deserves to die.
Why would Concord be involved? Did you even read the OP?

Let Tazzy keep you updated on new things, reading is not your strong point. Its in the OP for all your hi-sec needs.
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#198 - 2015-11-17 18:29:25 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
afkalt wrote:
There is instant counterplay.

You can scram it, thus shutting off the module AND tackling the ship. Which is both flashy and surrounded by several thousand DPS. It'll have a bad time.

Clutching at straws to justify implementing a bad mechanic as usual I see AFK, you did enough of that already in the HIC thread, one might think you have a hidden agenda. It is obvious this won't be allowed in highsec for more reasons that incursion fleets.

As for the ship, they look really interesting, looking forward to finding out how they are going to be used. I also really like that you are moving links to a smaller class of ship to help small roaming gangs.

Also I'm looking forward to the RnK video involving these at some point... *chuckles*



Oh do buzz off if you've no argument other than 'I don't like it'.

We shouldn't be disallowing interesting mechanics to pander to people's laziness.

High Security space has for a long time held a different standard for the purpose of allowing different play styles in different regions.
Certain capital ships are banned, Bombs are banned, Bubbles are banned, etc. Adding any of these to high sec would add interesting game play. But they would change what High sec currently is.

Would use of MJF be interesting game play in high sec? Yes

Would it alter the high sec play style? Probably yes. And thus it will likely fall into the same banned category as those other things for now.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#199 - 2015-11-17 18:32:19 UTC
Terra Chrall wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
afkalt wrote:
There is instant counterplay.

You can scram it, thus shutting off the module AND tackling the ship. Which is both flashy and surrounded by several thousand DPS. It'll have a bad time.

Clutching at straws to justify implementing a bad mechanic as usual I see AFK, you did enough of that already in the HIC thread, one might think you have a hidden agenda. It is obvious this won't be allowed in highsec for more reasons that incursion fleets.

As for the ship, they look really interesting, looking forward to finding out how they are going to be used. I also really like that you are moving links to a smaller class of ship to help small roaming gangs.

Also I'm looking forward to the RnK video involving these at some point... *chuckles*



Oh do buzz off if you've no argument other than 'I don't like it'.

We shouldn't be disallowing interesting mechanics to pander to people's laziness.

High Security space has for a long time held a different standard for the purpose of allowing different play styles in different regions.
Certain capital ships are banned, Bombs are banned, Bubbles are banned, etc. Adding any of these to high sec would add interesting game play. But they would change what High sec currently is.

Would use of MJF be interesting game play in high sec? Yes

Would it alter the high sec play style? Probably yes. And thus it will likely fall into the same banned category as those other things for now.



And yet the only reason presented thus far has been

MAH ISK/HOUR

So let's man up and list some others, who knows maybe you'll change my mind.

But if the best you have is protecting isk/hour you're on the road to nowhere.
Rosal Milag
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#200 - 2015-11-17 18:32:56 UTC
afkalt wrote:


Garbage.

Onyx locks to 110km with a basic a wing commander.

If they are more than 200km away, even an ABing guardian can get clear of the landing zone.




Ah the crux of it, MAH ISK/HOUR


Point is, you're wrong, you just aren't willing to make the effort.

Again, this is the very thinnest of veils over MAH ISK/HOUR MUST BE PROTECTED BY MECHANICS AND NOT ME.

Effort is for everyone else but the blingmobile guys, right?


Should I link all my API's to show I don't do incursions? I don't care about their isk/hour.

Think outside your own bubble of 'fun' and see how the whole sandbox ripples with your changes.

Onyx can't scram past 37km. Less than a second on the MJD when it lands and fleets dead. Can't even point in time because of server tics.
Btw, onyx and guardian have no business being in the same incursion fleet.

How can a guardian clear the landing zone? At 200km, a minor course correction can compensate for 800 m/s.

You are devising elaborate counters, multi-ship counters, multi-module counters for the victim. Where the ganker has only to press one button to profit. How is this equal game play?

If CCP wants incursion runners to fit for PvP, this is a poor way of doing it.

Mechanics must be equally applied and fair to everyone involved. The command destroyers have a potential to tilt the field in their favor by simply existing in high security space with these modules. You are arguing for mechanics to protect your ganking, not for an equal field.