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[December] Command Destroyers

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Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#161 - 2015-11-17 17:09:10 UTC
OH and a question about the new MJD...........scram turns it off.........but assuming it's not scrammed, will it pull scrammed ships with it?
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#162 - 2015-11-17 17:11:30 UTC
Mostlyharmlesss wrote:
This is going to further kill battleship doctrines since they will most likely not be able to hit the Destoyers until the spool up time have finished and by then the battleships will be MJD'ed away from the logi and picked off one by one.

It goes hand-in-hand with kiting doctrines that CCP has worked towards, essentially meaning everything slow will die.

This is going to lead to a lot of frustration from people who will not be able to do anything to counter it and by now we know frustrated players don't speak up, they quit the game.


I thought BS doctrines rolled with support fleets? Would not keeping a few pilots close in scram fit frigs or ceptors solve this easily?
Second Strike
Moira.
#163 - 2015-11-17 17:13:02 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Mr Grape Drink wrote:
Does a scram shut it off like a regular MJD?


Yes, scram will shut off an active MJFG and will also keep any targets in range of one that fires from taking the jump.

I was hoping this would be the case. Goodbye logi anchors, otherwise it's a simple matter of scram 1 while you jump the others out of rep range Twisted
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#164 - 2015-11-17 17:17:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
Question: What happens if I am accelerating to warp speed when I am hit by a MJFG? Will I continue accelerating, and warp as normal? What if the micro jump causes my ship to be no longer aligned to my warp target (because I was warping just 300 km, so the jump changed the angle)?

Second Strike wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Mr Grape Drink wrote:
Does a scram shut it off like a regular MJD?


Yes, scram will shut off an active MJFG and will also keep any targets in range of one that fires from taking the jump.

I was hoping this would be the case. Goodbye logi anchors, otherwise it's a simple matter of scram 1 while you jump the others out of rep range Twisted


You can always scram your own fleet, continuously, as a counter.

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Virion Stoneshard
Spectre Fleet Ltd.
Spectre Fleet Alliance
#165 - 2015-11-17 17:18:05 UTC
For those of you worried about a counter - take in mind, for an enemy command destroyer to MJD your group away, it needs to be within 6km of the target. Which means it can easily be countered with a scram in your fleet.
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#166 - 2015-11-17 17:21:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Terra Chrall
Virion Stoneshard wrote:
For those of you worried about a counter - take in mind, for an enemy command destroyer to MJD your group away, it needs to be within 6km of the target. Which means it can easily be countered with a scram in your fleet.

Daisy chaining makes this much harder. Since 1 CD can jump another CD close to you and have a pre-spooled MJFD that goes off 1-2 seconds after landing. It will take some good skill and coordination to pull off, but will be almost impossible to counter unless you scram your fleetmates.
Airi Cho
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#167 - 2015-11-17 17:21:32 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
OH and a question about the new MJD...........scram turns it off.........but assuming it's not scrammed, will it pull scrammed ships with it?


no
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#168 - 2015-11-17 17:22:33 UTC
Im sure these will be fun and introduce new tactics into EVE. That is great news and I applaud the devs.

That being said, why was this bonus provided to destroyers of all things? Sure, command destroyers would have made a good addition by themselves. Why not put this tech in a class of ships that actually need a better niche? Like BS, or BC? MJD was founded with those ship classes in mind. Now with CD it will apply the same affect to small ships including the destroyer.

The Bifrost and Stork are going to be kiters with their speed and missiles which now have an MJD. The limiting factor with BC/BS is they were slowish. Now we will have speedy missile kiters with MJD. Short of the uber scram HIC, there isnt much to reliably counter that.

This patch is just bursting at the seams of small ship meta. A ship class that is the healthiest its ever been and now we are adding more? I know i dont speak for everyone, but there are some of us who like to fly bigger ships and it seems in most patches you are preventing bigger ships from getting a foothold.

Recap:

T3D were released
Navy EWAR frigs coming
Expedition Frigate coming
Logi frigs coming
Command Destroyers coming
UBER scram HICs (which are going to be the norm for gaytecampers)

Some havelittle to no effect on the bigger ship meta (navy frigs/expedition frig) others are replacing or countering roles that BC/BS once had. Then the final breaking point are the new uber HIC scram. I dont see much hope for big ships in the future. Are you planning on any kind of rebalance/additions for things that dont fit in the frigate/destroyer sized box?

Yes BCs were rebalanced but these upcoming changes are going to make that a moot point.

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Rosal Milag
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#169 - 2015-11-17 17:23:26 UTC
As was pointed out earlier, daisy-chaining two CD into your incursion fleet leaves no counterplay. Unless you are advocating that there should be a fleet on the gate to suicide on destroyers? Or to follow the destroyers inside the complex? How is this providing your "intense hand shaking game play" to be babysitting an incursion gate?

Or maybe you think the incursion fleet should have a group of ships sitting in the landing zone? Then what? Chase the destroyers? What about the tank of those ships? Odds are the rats are not going to ignore any ship in the complex. Do you want two ships sitting inside the complex away from the fleet, pulling aggro and getting the rats out of range of your guns?

What about the payouts? If incursions are now going to run with more people, then the payouts will need to be adjusted to reflect this, depending on what CCP decides is appropriate. If the current rewards for 10 people is "CCP approved" then adding two people to the fleet who cannot do anything else but anti-gank means 12 people is now what incursions are adjusted to maintain the status quo.

Keeping the MJFG out of Hi Sec is no more hand holding than joining the Imperium and flying massive blobs. When you are part of the largest coalition in the game and complain that EVE is no longer the cut-throat game it once was, you are part of the problem. Want faster pace game play? Get out of the blue doughnut.

Point is, in an incursion environment, there are methods to remove all counterplay aside from using suicide ships on the Command Destroyers, which by the way, is not going to be well received by anyone.
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#170 - 2015-11-17 17:24:39 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Question: What happens if I am accelerating to warp speed when I am hit by a MJFG? Will I continue accelerating, and warp as normal? What if the micro jump causes my ship to be no longer aligned to my warp target (because I was warping just 300 km, so the jump changed the angle)?

Second Strike wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Mr Grape Drink wrote:
Does a scram shut it off like a regular MJD?


Yes, scram will shut off an active MJFG and will also keep any targets in range of one that fires from taking the jump.

I was hoping this would be the case. Goodbye logi anchors, otherwise it's a simple matter of scram 1 while you jump the others out of rep range Twisted


You can always scram your own fleet, continuously, as a counter.

Once you are in warp you are immune thus unaffected by the device, but during your ramp up time you are still aligning and getting to speed. If you are jumped while in the warp ramp up phase, then you will likely continue once landed but with the added time of any alignment adjustments.
Luscius Uta
#171 - 2015-11-17 17:29:19 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Alyssia Benar wrote:
Still no answer to whether we can jump Caps or not. :(


You cannot jump caps. Sorry I missed that in the OP, it's added now.


Does that include Orcas and Freighters? What about bastioned Marauders?

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#172 - 2015-11-17 17:31:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Owen Levanth
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
Rosal Milag wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Rosal Milag wrote:
afkalt wrote:


There is instant counterplay.

You can scram it, thus shutting off the module AND tackling the ship. Which is both flashy and surrounded by several thousand DPS. It'll have a bad time.


Again, if you can expect combat fleets to do this, you can JUST as easily expect incursion fleets to do this.


ed: And it should only go suspect, imo.


Problem is, in high sec, a gank attempt targets one ship. Yes with a large enough suicide fleet, you can kill an entire incursion fleet. But that is committing numbers and can be noticed on D-scan.

With these destroyers, they can kill a whole fleet in ~5 seconds. With one ship. Tell me how that is not overpowered. I don't care what your thoughts are on incursion runners, that is not the point here. One ship, in high sec, should not be able to effectively kill 10 others illegally in 5 seconds.

PvP fleets are fit to take down PvP ships. A PvE fleet is not designed nor intended to engage a PvP target, especially a destroyer sized target with battleship targeting.



So bring a SeBod HIC. It's not exactly hard to stop these.

Maybe, >gasp< you need to adapt your fittings. The horror.



But again, what this comes down to is "MAH ISK/HOUR!!!!!"


I don't care about incursions, I don't run them.

The bigger point is that ONE ship can, without much warning or notice, wreck an entire incursion fleet. Currently, you need to provide a level of trust (joining a fleet for fleet warps), do something to become a legal target (suspect/killright), or be specifically targeted to lose your ship.

If this class of ship is allowed to use its MJD in high sec, then bombs should be allowed, as they are as indiscriminate and provide at least 10 seconds of warning for ships to get out of the way.

This isn't about who's fun is more important, incursion or gankers. Its recognizing player trends and possible usage cases and ensuring that there is a level playing field for PvP.

You want to kill an incursion fleet, put some effort into it and not 5 seconds to glory. Risk = reward. And 5 seconds is not nearly long enough for the billions from a dead incursion fleet.


You dont want to lose your incursion fleet in 5 seconds of glory? Put some effort into it and defend it. Risk = reward. A few ships to counter this is no where near the cost of the billions to replace a dead incursion fleet


Exactly, CCP could even throw a softball at them and make an in-system message appear when someone uses the new module in HighSec. Something like "CONCORD Warning: Micro Jump Generator Activation Detected". This way the guys guarding the incursion fleet would have some precious forewarning before the command destroyers arrive.
Darian en Chasteaux
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#173 - 2015-11-17 17:34:35 UTC
Minmatar Bifrost Missiles???

With a 6km range for pulling this is obsurd; Minmatar ships need GUNS not missiles; let the Caldari use them; UNLESS the role for these command dessies is purely defensive in nature (except for one obvious role); not good for soloing either; these single role ships are probly useless.

In a small fleet it's another story; am I missing something here? I am mostly a solo player; are these ships designed more for fleet action?

In a defensive role missiles may be okay; defender missiles? pretty limited.

Darian
Ripard Teg
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#174 - 2015-11-17 17:36:06 UTC
Do you get jumped when HIC pointed?

Do you get jumped when standard pointed?

Do you get jumped when bubbled?

Do you get jumped when moored (when mooring becomes a thing)?

You said capitals are immune. Are freighters and jump freighters also immune? What about Orcas? (Their status as capitals/not capitals is unclear.)

I'm a little bit uneasy about allowing this mod in low-sec for reasons I can't quite justify. Maybe it's just because it's only the second area-of-effect attack allowable in low-sec, after smart bombs. Did you consider making it null-sec only during the "let's see what players do with this" phase?

aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#175 - 2015-11-17 17:37:10 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:




Exactly, CCP could even throw a softball at them and make an in-system message appear when someone uses the new module in HighSec. Something like "CONCORD Warning: Micro Jump Generator Activation Detected". This way the guys guarding the incursion fleet would have some precious forewarning before the command destroyers arrive.



just make a ship with this mod equipped be suspect all the time in high sec.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#176 - 2015-11-17 17:41:21 UTC
Ripard Teg wrote:

Do you get jumped when moored (when mooring becomes a thing)?

Mooring is never going to be a thing. Tethering, on the other hand, is.

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Rosal Milag
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#177 - 2015-11-17 17:41:30 UTC
Ripard Teg wrote:
Do you get jumped when HIC pointed?

Do you get jumped when standard pointed?

Do you get jumped when bubbled?

Do you get jumped when moored (when mooring becomes a thing)?

You said capitals are immune. Are freighters and jump freighters also immune? What about Orcas? (Their status as capitals/not capitals is unclear.)

I'm a little bit uneasy about allowing this mod in low-sec for reasons I can't quite justify. Maybe it's just because it's only the second area-of-effect attack allowable in low-sec, after smart bombs. Did you consider making it null-sec only during the "let's see what players do with this" phase?


Did you read the OP? Scrams keep you from being jumped and the HIC is getting a scram to its focused point. Its been repeated for the past 9 pages as well as "Can't jump capitals"

TL;DR OP:
If you could use a mobile MJD, you will be jumped by the destroyer.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#178 - 2015-11-17 17:42:03 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:




Exactly, CCP could even throw a softball at them and make an in-system message appear when someone uses the new module in HighSec. Something like "CONCORD Warning: Micro Jump Generator Activation Detected". This way the guys guarding the incursion fleet would have some precious forewarning before the command destroyers arrive.



just make a ship with this mod equipped be suspect all the time in high sec.


It doesn't work in highsec. The OP says so and there are like 100 comments about it not working in highsec.
Invisusira
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#179 - 2015-11-17 17:47:30 UTC
Sounds awesome! But UHG Dragoon, so ugly

EVE Music
FT Cold
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#180 - 2015-11-17 17:48:06 UTC
I noticed a mention towards the reworking of gang links, how soon can we expect insight into how they are being changed? A leadership alt is a serious investment for most of us, and some changes (like on grid links) have the potential to affect the value of owning such an investment, especially for solo players.