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[December] Command Destroyers

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TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#121 - 2015-11-17 15:58:25 UTC
Im sorry but i absolutely hate the entire idea of these. Having a ship that has such a powerful ability with a 5s activation time and a tank bonus, reasonable hitpoints, decent amount of slots for tank AND a small sig radius so larger ships cant even lock it in time is beyond crazy. As far as i see it, these ships are another huge penalty to the slower bulkier doctrines of Eve. Id seriously have the consider replacing the ECCM off our logi fits and fitting a scram, then having a scram buddy to tackle ourselves....From the fear of a single ship on the field im going to have to consider tackling my fleet myself? That is completely ridiculous.

A question i have is, say i have 5 Command Destroyers and they all activate their mod 1 second after each other, will the mod drag the other 4 Command Destroyers 100km? Which then will land with 1s left on their activation jumping them again? So i can travel 500km in 5 seconds?

Im sorry but i really see these as promoting more nano kiting, sniping and scimitar gangs rather than guardians, BS, BCs and capitals. (capitals because your much needed support can just be randomly jumped away and you have no way of getting to the 100km off) BS gangs with triage with these destroyers running around? Eurgh.
Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#122 - 2015-11-17 15:59:59 UTC
Rosal Milag wrote:
afkalt wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Lord Jasta wrote:
Yet another item that can't be used in high sec, :( why not have this with a criminal timer?


We really wanted to but even with a criminal timer you would pretty easily be able to destroy incursion fleets, which seemed over the top :(



It's not over the top. It's hilarious and moreover, some needed risk to that community.


When there is no counterplay, its over the top.


But there is lots of counterplay!

First: You could fit a scram on every ship or alternatively use an alt in an Arazu to 100% protect you. Wait, you can't be arsed to use an alt to protect your multi-billion ship? Then you don't deserve it in the first place! If you don't have an alt, get friends! I'm sure they love this kind of gameplay.

Second: You could also dscan every three seconds and warp out if such a ship appears on it.

Third: you could gank it!

Fourth: you could bring your own Command Destroyer and jump the whole fleet back within seconds

That's four counters to this which seems pretty unbalanced in the opposite direction!!!

Wait, this isn't the freighter bumping/ganking thread? Nevermind then ...

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#123 - 2015-11-17 16:02:51 UTC
Airi Cho wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Lord Jasta wrote:
Yet another item that can't be used in high sec, :( why not have this with a criminal timer?


We really wanted to but even with a criminal timer you would pretty easily be able to destroy incursion fleets, which seemed over the top :(


How can you discriminate against lowsec and 0.0 incursion fleets?:p


First:

You do have groups in low and Null that run Incursions when they appear and what of your new shiny Drifter Incursions? Why are Hi-sec Incursion runners getting preferential treatment? If certain low, Null, and Wormhole groups got preferential treatment and safeties added specifically for them so new ships wouldnt effect them torches would get lit. If we have to learn new tricks for our shinies fighting drifters and Sansha invasions they can adapt and do so as well.

I Mean could this not also kill the Drifter groups and future "group PVE" sites for null that was mentioned coming in the future, what about those in wormholes? These could easily murder WH runner setups. Why does only one form of PVE get special treatment? Its Risk vs reward, stop removing risk.


Second onto the ships:

How come these stats seem to of been lazily done? I am all for these ships don't misunderstand. But they are very ... cookie cut is the term we use here in New York in the Project Management field. When everything is designed same and only slightly modified when needed. You will see the process used in commercial locations so its patrons are not confused with layouts in different retail, financial, and grocery stores of different companies. A simplification process.

Gallente + Amarr = both resist fit + drones

Caldari + Minmitar = both resist fit + missile

The hull choices seems chosen over the simplicity of cut & paste for 2 ship types vs making 4 unique ships and play styles.
Gallente could of continued its trait of Armor Repair bonus keeping Amarr unique with resist, same with Caldari for resist and Minmitar getting a boost bonus.

I know these are supposed to be limited in combat effectiveness but the Magus and Pontifax will especially hurt with its fragile weapon systems. They could of at least received 10% bonus to Drone hit points and damage.

I would of thoroughly enjoyed seeing these ships with less cut and paste and more individualism to them. As it is now I can Jump into any of these new ships and only need to ever touch two of them to get a feel.

I hope this cookie cutter approach will not be the new Meta going into the future. Its a step backwards for an MMO.
Ra's al-ghul Demons-Head
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2015-11-17 16:04:42 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
...the big restrictions you need to know are that you cannot use this module in high sec,...


Awww there goes my dream of pulling gankers away from the jita undocks
Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
#125 - 2015-11-17 16:06:46 UTC
Drone bonus on a ship specialized to leap out of drone range. Does MJD'ing break contact with drones or can you still recall them? (Didn't read entire thread before posting.)

                      "LIVE FAST DIE." - traditional Minmatar ethos [citation needed]
Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#126 - 2015-11-17 16:06:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Torgeir Hekard
Questions

1) Number of warfare links per dessie? Command ships get 3 links per ship without command processors. Without the special bonus you need a command proc for each additional link above 1. Obviously command processors are not an option on dessies because PG. So one link per dessie? It doesn't seem like a reasonable choice for a link ship, since to at least have a full, say, skirmish set you are going to need a fleet with a skilled fleet commander. As in a person who has fleet commander 1 which means the person has wing commander 5 which most likely means the person has a full rack of leadership skills and can fly a booster T3 with hyperspatial rigs, and the point of using a dessie with a single link becomes moot.

2) Blueprints for MJFG. I assume it's the same as MJDs - BPC drops from data sites only?

3) Command dessie manufacturing is broken on SiSi. Can't be built on stations and in advanced small ship construction arrays. ETA on fixes? Or maybe there are some intended restrictions on manufacturing in place?
Rosal Milag
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#127 - 2015-11-17 16:07:37 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Rosal Milag wrote:
afkalt wrote:


There is instant counterplay.

You can scram it, thus shutting off the module AND tackling the ship. Which is both flashy and surrounded by several thousand DPS. It'll have a bad time.


Again, if you can expect combat fleets to do this, you can JUST as easily expect incursion fleets to do this.


ed: And it should only go suspect, imo.


Problem is, in high sec, a gank attempt targets one ship. Yes with a large enough suicide fleet, you can kill an entire incursion fleet. But that is committing numbers and can be noticed on D-scan.

With these destroyers, they can kill a whole fleet in ~5 seconds. With one ship. Tell me how that is not overpowered. I don't care what your thoughts are on incursion runners, that is not the point here. One ship, in high sec, should not be able to effectively kill 10 others illegally in 5 seconds.

PvP fleets are fit to take down PvP ships. A PvE fleet is not designed nor intended to engage a PvP target, especially a destroyer sized target with battleship targeting.



So bring a SeBod HIC. It's not exactly hard to stop these.

Maybe, >gasp< you need to adapt your fittings. The horror.



But again, what this comes down to is "MAH ISK/HOUR!!!!!"


I don't care about incursions, I don't run them.

The bigger point is that ONE ship can, without much warning or notice, wreck an entire incursion fleet. Currently, you need to provide a level of trust (joining a fleet for fleet warps), do something to become a legal target (suspect/killright), or be specifically targeted to lose your ship.

If this class of ship is allowed to use its MJD in high sec, then bombs should be allowed, as they are as indiscriminate and provide at least 10 seconds of warning for ships to get out of the way.

This isn't about who's fun is more important, incursion or gankers. Its recognizing player trends and possible usage cases and ensuring that there is a level playing field for PvP.

You want to kill an incursion fleet, put some effort into it and not 5 seconds to glory. Risk = reward. And 5 seconds is not nearly long enough for the billions from a dead incursion fleet.
Liam Inkuras
Furnace
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#128 - 2015-11-17 16:08:33 UTC
Nice

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#129 - 2015-11-17 16:09:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Terra Chrall
Deleted for being stupid.
SaB0TaG3
TYR.
Exodus.
#130 - 2015-11-17 16:11:39 UTC
Does the spool-up have an obvious effect we can see in-space or do we have to zoom in on every ship to look for MJD? The current problem with MJDs is you can't both look for MJD effect and pilot your ship properly.
ROSSLINDEN0
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#131 - 2015-11-17 16:12:07 UTC  |  Edited by: ROSSLINDEN0
So you cant mjd people into a pos but can you mjd people out of a pos?
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#132 - 2015-11-17 16:15:08 UTC
I love both the new ships and the new modules.

But: Excluding them from HighSec is a bad idea. Excluding them because of Incursions? Seriously? Roll

Two easy solutions:

1. End all incursions in HighSec. (The harsh one)

2. Tell incursion runners that scrams exist, show them pictures etc. (The mild one)

Problem solved, now HighSec can have them, too! Big smile
Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#133 - 2015-11-17 16:18:38 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:

2. Tell incursion runners that scrams exist, show them pictures etc. (The mild one)

Scramming whites in hisec, really?

Even if we forgo jumping non-aggressed players, there's still an option to daisychain a trigger NPC into the sunset without any possibility for the victim to retaliate.
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#134 - 2015-11-17 16:23:38 UTC
Quindaster wrote:
Omg...new crazy drug idea from CCP...

It wasn't enough to see here uncatchable t3 destroyers, now we will see fleets of 50 frigs or destroyers jumping on 100+100+100km every 10 seconda and back, and till you try to lock them - they jump out. Zero kills, but CCP happy - they can show to EVE-Online owners "how they work hard...".

Most of people will not even undock to fight with frigs or destroyrs - it's boring for most of players who more then 2 years old, even crusers. No reason to risk own ships for this cheap destroyers or crusers, no one will undock for them, except some crazy noobs in zero space.

Would be better if CCP start to think how to bring back old middle scale fight in EVE, because most of old players leave EVE and I bored of it too and will leave too for other more intresting games, because after 8 years of gaming CCP did nothing for old players - always just nerf-nerf-nerf and CCP only play in database modifications and they call it "new patch" cheap and easy way to do nothing for CCP.

We have 100 different ships now in dock, but we do not use them, becauase 90% of them - useless now.
Most of them I still didn't refite after most of stupid CCP patches, because noone have power to refit 200 ships and change they's fitting after each new patch in 50 different systems and stations. If CCP this we have nothing to do and will do it - they are WRONG !

Even if clever people try to give some ideas for CCP how to change this boring docking game - CCP never listen, for this people leave and most of clever and old players stop to write on foruns, because we all know it's useless spending of own time.

This fight in EVE more and more short, you spend hours on waiting and 2-5 min fighting. CCP think it FUN and nerf ships HP...not, it's not fun. Fun when you can spend 5 min on waiting and 30 minute fighting.

Where is walking in stations? Fighting in stations?
Where is building cities on planets like in ANNO 2070?
Where is Tech 2 capitals, supercapitals? Where is different type of weapons for big ships?
Where is T3 BS ?
Where is fighting arena where anyone can join from station and fight with random people?
and so on and so on. CCP did NOTHING in last 3 years, absolutely nothing.
They do now this kind of things which they was need to do 7 years ago, like adding to direct scan that ray on map where you can see where you scanning. But no, CCP show this things like something awesome and NEW in 2015...
CCP - voke up. it's not 1999 out there ! This things was fun 16 years ago, but even in 1999 we had better games.



He's right for the majority of it. Especially concerning middle scale combat. Long gone are the thorax roams. If you do catch anything mid tier its the same ships, cyna or Ishtar. Everything has concentrated on the ADD we need candy now meta. Everytime CCP makes a change to middle grade ships (BC's recently) they nerf it quickly with these small ships. It does make me wonder why I trained or maintain the sub when I am unable to make effective use of the majority of my SP. Many of my peers of same age or older only resub for a month if a Major scale fight will hit then its back on the shelf and talking on facebook to em again. :(

But Quin, that is Todays EVE my friend. They don't want the good battles of old. They want 1-2 min skirmishes and make EVE into a form of Space DoTA, they mention many times about eSporting it. It will be amusing at least statewide as eSports are falling under doping regs. How many of eves player base are willingly to get **** tested and blood drawn at an eSport event for say EVE vegas? Just to push CCPs future meta. Guess a new location outside of Nevada will have to be used.
Vic Vorlon
Malevelon Roe Industries
Convocation of Empyreans
#135 - 2015-11-17 16:24:27 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Arline Kley wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
When it finishes. Doesn't matter what happens during spool up.


What about chaining spools? So CD#1 starts to spool up, and then just before it fires CD#2 starts to spool its one up


This works, can't wait to see what's possible with it.


I expect Rooks and Kings to be all over this like smart-bombing Rohks on a gate.
Tosawa Komarui
State War Academy
Caldari State
#136 - 2015-11-17 16:25:47 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Cephei Kells wrote:
Please tell me I'm not the only one who sees this as another way to attempt to limit fleet sizes/tactics?


More than any module/mechanic I've worked on, this is an attempt to expand fleet sizes and tactics, not limit them. I believe (as long as the numbers end up somewhat balanced) this is one of the most promising 'sandbox' module/ship additions we've done recently and the fact that we have no idea what players will do with it feels really great and exciting.


is there any chance the mjd cycles range can be modified, say a few scrips for 30-60-80km?
Mostlyharmlesss
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#137 - 2015-11-17 16:26:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Mostlyharmlesss
This is going to further kill battleship doctrines since they will most likely not be able to hit the Destoyers until the spool up time have finished and by then the battleships will be MJD'ed away from the logi and picked off one by one.

It goes hand-in-hand with kiting doctrines that CCP has worked towards, essentially meaning everything slow will die.

This is going to lead to a lot of frustration from people who will not be able to do anything to counter it and by now we know frustrated players don't speak up, they quit the game.

Follow me on Twitter for the latest regarding GoonSwarm Federation and our recruitment drives!
Azure and Or
Venus Brokerage
#138 - 2015-11-17 16:28:39 UTC
Will the mjd bubble module give players a weapons timer? Since CCP is embracing the spirit of having t2 ships somewhat mirror their t1 counterparts will the flycatcher be transitioning to a rail platform? It seems a bit boring to have all of the shiny caldari destroyers spitting out missiles.
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#139 - 2015-11-17 16:30:06 UTC
handige harrie wrote:
One of the most interesting additions to eve in a long time, I don't think Highsec should be excluded however.

There already is counterplay to the module everywhere in eve and that is not being close together. Since Incursion fleets are not static, they are just as able to spread out as anyone else is.
Just add that as soon as you activate the module you go blinky and can be shot without concord interfering in highsec and give a penalty to the activation spool up, so instead of 9 seconds, it'll take like 30 in highsec for it to activate.

Now as an incursion pilot you have time and opportunity to defend yourself. A bit more risk and need to pay attention while earning the highest isk/hour per pilot in highsec by far is not a bad thing.

Because the module doesn't stop the affected ship from doing what it's doing, like aligning/moving or anything else, getting your industrial moved 100km shouldn't be too big of a deal really and with 30 seconds before activation you have plenty of time to react anyway.

I was trying to think of ways to allow this into High Sec, and I considered adding time to the spool up like you suggest, but then realized it would be easily circumvented. Since they can be daisy chained, you could take 3 CDs 200k away spool up the timers with 2 sec between each and when the group lands on their target it would jump away in a couple of seconds with it's prey.

I think it would be cool to have it in high sec even for friendly use, but it could set up so many cases for abuse that I completely understand CCP's decision. I can see it being used to grief all sorts of non pvp activities. Jump that kiting mission runner right into NPCs. Jump that AB fit BS 100km from the gate he needs to use in deadspace.

Unless you can scram yourself, the N+1 makes these uncounterable for a solo ship against multiple CDs. And the current High Sec game play is not built around equipping for PvP.

Now if you made using a MJFG in highsec a CONCORD offense, then using it to suicide gank could have interesting game play. But having it leave the ComDesie unaffected by CONCORD response leaves it open to griefing and abuse.
Verse Askold
Bedtime Stories
#140 - 2015-11-17 16:32:06 UTC
awesome thingy :D
especially for WH pvp where a lot of times a whole fleet sits at 0km on a WH which is easily within the 6km range
also highsec connection campers can be blinged off
uh uh, can we have new visual/audio effects for those and not the same as MJD´s CCPLS

for the highsec issue, i would love to see them in highsec as well since wardeccers could benefit from this module as well
i totally understand the problem with blinking a ship out of logi range in 5sec and that this 5sec are not enough time to react propperly
maybe this could be solved with the MJFG(i hope that right^^) giving a general suspect timer when the module is fitted on a ship and is online, that way people who dont inted to use it in highsec but want to buy it there and fly it into lowsec could fit it and offline it to not get a suspect timer
make onlining it take 99.9% cap, that way the ship has to wait some time to be able to activate it after onlining it(i know cap boosters would solve that, but it would definitely give some more time to react)

aaand i´m really looking forward to blink some geckos out of control range and scoop them or take with me most of the dps of a gila fleet

mwahahaha, those things gonna be awesome