These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[December] Command Destroyers

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#101 - 2015-11-17 15:27:52 UTC
Question: will MJFG use show up on killmails?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Airi Cho
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#102 - 2015-11-17 15:28:06 UTC
afkalt wrote:
text


I dont run incursion. the difference is ... the fleet compositions you will normally find in null/lowsec will include tackle already.
Arla Sarain
#103 - 2015-11-17 15:28:11 UTC
I get the bitter feeling that this detracts from dedicated probers utility. The ability to act as a positioning tool and a warpin was pretty uch the only reason to bring a prober to a fight, seeing as how easy it is to evade probes otherwise. Now having a prober ongrid seems pretty redundant.
Airi Cho
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#104 - 2015-11-17 15:29:33 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
I get the bitter feeling that this detracts from dedicated probers utility. The ability to act as a positioning tool and a warpin was pretty uch the only reason to bring a prober to a fight, seeing as how easy it is to evade probes otherwise. Now having a prober ongrid seems pretty redundant.


Probers will have so many other good uses than just blinking your fleet 100km.
Hendrink Collie
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#105 - 2015-11-17 15:30:39 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Rosal Milag wrote:
afkalt wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Lord Jasta wrote:
Yet another item that can't be used in high sec, :( why not have this with a criminal timer?


We really wanted to but even with a criminal timer you would pretty easily be able to destroy incursion fleets, which seemed over the top :(



It's not over the top. It's hilarious and moreover, some needed risk to that community.


When there is no counterplay, its over the top. Specifically referring to the ability of these destroyers to warp into an incursion fight, activate without anyone stopping them and killing the fleet as the logi is now 100km away and useless.

In low and null, as soon as the destroyer lands, its able to be killed. In high sec, you get concorded. Even a criminal timer when it activates isn't enough, both for the fleet to kill it or for it to activate before concord kills it in certain systems.



There is instant counterplay.

You can scram it, thus shutting off the module AND tackling the ship. Which is both flashy and surrounded by several thousand DPS. It'll have a bad time.


Again, if you can expect combat fleets to do this, you can JUST as easily expect incursion fleets to do this.


ed: And it should only go suspect, imo.


Luckily incursion fleets rarely go into lowsec/nullsec where you can use the module
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#106 - 2015-11-17 15:31:26 UTC
Airi Cho wrote:
afkalt wrote:
text


I dont run incursion. the difference is ... the fleet compositions you will normally find in null/lowsec will include tackle already.



So it comes down to isk/hour and not wanting to pay that HIC pilot.

Also, those fleets tend not to run tackle because the big tussles are over assets and leaving the field loses the asset. They will also require refitting/adapting to these.


Hitting incursion isk/hour is NOT a good reason to deny high sec access to these. The counters are there, if people are too lazy or too dumb, or too cheap to use them then they deserve to die in a fire.
NearNihil
Jump Drive Appreciation Society
#107 - 2015-11-17 15:33:40 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Their weapon systems will be missile or drone based, like their base hulls.

Now, this question has probably been asked before, but... why is this a thing now and not for the existing interdictors? I want lasers on the Heretic, dammit.
Quindaster
Infernal Laboratory
Infernal Octopus
#108 - 2015-11-17 15:34:06 UTC
Omg...new crazy drug idea from CCP...

It wasn't enough to see here uncatchable t3 destroyers, now we will see fleets of 50 frigs or destroyers jumping on 100+100+100km every 10 seconda and back, and till you try to lock them - they jump out. Zero kills, but CCP happy - they can show to EVE-Online owners "how they work hard...".

Most of people will not even undock to fight with frigs or destroyrs - it's boring for most of players who more then 2 years old, even crusers. No reason to risk own ships for this cheap destroyers or crusers, no one will undock for them, except some crazy noobs in zero space.

Would be better if CCP start to think how to bring back old middle scale fight in EVE, because most of old players leave EVE and I bored of it too and will leave too for other more intresting games, because after 8 years of gaming CCP did nothing for old players - always just nerf-nerf-nerf and CCP only play in database modifications and they call it "new patch" cheap and easy way to do nothing for CCP.

We have 100 different ships now in dock, but we do not use them, becauase 90% of them - useless now.
Most of them I still didn't refite after most of stupid CCP patches, because noone have power to refit 200 ships and change they's fitting after each new patch in 50 different systems and stations. If CCP this we have nothing to do and will do it - they are WRONG !

Even if clever people try to give some ideas for CCP how to change this boring docking game - CCP never listen, for this people leave and most of clever and old players stop to write on foruns, because we all know it's useless spending of own time.

This fight in EVE more and more short, you spend hours on waiting and 2-5 min fighting. CCP think it FUN and nerf ships HP...not, it's not fun. Fun when you can spend 5 min on waiting and 30 minute fighting.

Where is walking in stations? Fighting in stations?
Where is building cities on planets like in ANNO 2070?
Where is Tech 2 capitals, supercapitals? Where is different type of weapons for big ships?
Where is T3 BS ?
Where is fighting arena where anyone can join from station and fight with random people?
and so on and so on. CCP did NOTHING in last 3 years, absolutely nothing.
They do now this kind of things which they was need to do 7 years ago, like adding to direct scan that ray on map where you can see where you scanning. But no, CCP show this things like something awesome and NEW in 2015...
CCP - voke up. it's not 1999 out there ! This things was fun 16 years ago, but even in 1999 we had better games.
Airi Cho
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#109 - 2015-11-17 15:37:39 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Hitting incursion isk/hour is NOT a good reason to deny high sec access to these. The counters are there, if people are too lazy or too dumb, or too cheap to use them then they deserve to die in a fire.



if you read my post ... you would have noticed that incursions were my minor gripe with this. there is a lot of game play that doesn't allow much free movement. (mining with orca on field comes to mind.) there is also many ships which by their nature are quite vulnerable to MJFG without having a proper counter to them. DST, orcas. I assume freighters are excempted by "is a capital".

and "because it is funny to blink them away" is not a good argument *for* MJFG in highsec either.

When you consider "is game mechanic X useful in highsec/lowsec/0.0" you should also look at what the activities in those areas require.
Nina Latina
ECHO MOB
#110 - 2015-11-17 15:37:48 UTC
Will make good use in fw/lowsec space.
handige harrie
Vereenigde Handels Compagnie
#111 - 2015-11-17 15:38:32 UTC  |  Edited by: handige harrie
One of the most interesting additions to eve in a long time, I don't think Highsec should be excluded however.

There already is counterplay to the module everywhere in eve and that is not being close together. Since Incursion fleets are not static, they are just as able to spread out as anyone else is.
Just add that as soon as you activate the module you go blinky and can be shot without concord interfering in highsec and give a penalty to the activation spool up, so instead of 9 seconds, it'll take like 30 in highsec for it to activate.

Now as an incursion pilot you have time and opportunity to defend yourself. A bit more risk and need to pay attention while earning the highest isk/hour per pilot in highsec by far is not a bad thing.

Because the module doesn't stop the affected ship from doing what it's doing, like aligning/moving or anything else, getting your industrial moved 100km shouldn't be too big of a deal really and with 30 seconds before activation you have plenty of time to react anyway.

--

If you use the module on a ship with an active cyno, will the cyno move too?

Baddest poster ever
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#112 - 2015-11-17 15:40:01 UTC
Airi Cho wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Hitting incursion isk/hour is NOT a good reason to deny high sec access to these. The counters are there, if people are too lazy or too dumb, or too cheap to use them then they deserve to die in a fire.



if you read my post ... you would have noticed that incursions were my minor gripe with this. there is a lot of game play that doesn't allow much free movement. (mining with orca on field comes to mind.) there is also many ships which by their nature are quite vulnerable to MJFG without having a proper counter to them. DST, orcas. I assume freighters are excempted by "is a capital".

and "because it is funny to blink them away" is not a good argument *for* MJFG in highsec either.

When you consider "is game mechanic X useful in highsec/lowsec/0.0" you should also look at what the activities in those areas require.


It brings "good" and "bad" to highsec, depending on your situation.

It will really hurt station game players. It will allow a solid anti-bump counterplay. It lets you blink away neutral RR.


It's not just about one thing. It would bring a lot of cool stuff, but incursions were cited as Rise's concern so I dealt with that first.
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#113 - 2015-11-17 15:40:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentient Blade
I love everything these represent. A real shake-up of the meta.

It reminds me of the Rooks & Kings video about pipe bombing "What about firing ship sized bullets". Except these will be more like ship-sized pool balls.

They are going to be absolutely lethal on station undocks. That one might require a preemptive balance pass otherwise we'll end up with cloaked command destroyers sitting outside every station. Will freighters / capital industrials be effected or are they considered capitals for this?

What will the overheat bonus provide? There's a few good options to my mind, either reduced spool up time, increased pull radius, increased jump range (150km maybe?).

They will be hugely disruptive to capital warfare too. I can imagine the price of these ships is going to go up and down like crazy as alliances sacrifice hundreds of them to clear the bubbles and interdictors from their trapped supercapital fleets.

Will it have an almost-obligatory micro-jump-area-disruptor deployable that can interfear with its operation?

Looks fun.

Edit: Highsec use. Could this tie into crimewatch and only have an effect on those that are legit targets e.g. limited engagement or wardec? While it would contradict my earlier point about balancing near stations, I would laugh myself silly to see ultra-tanked battleships playing station games outside Jita and Amarr suddenly blinked 100km away from the undock and subsequently annihilated.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#114 - 2015-11-17 15:48:13 UTC
So, will these things be able to only fit one link module regardless of how much command processors stick on them or am I reading this wrong?
Jin alPatar
Entertainment 7wenty
The Burning Contingent Alliance
#115 - 2015-11-17 15:50:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Jin alPatar
CCP Rise wrote:

restrictions you need to know are that you cannot use this module in high sec


Can we give the MJFG an option to be scripted to work like a normal MJD that can be used in HiSec?
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2015-11-17 15:50:54 UTC
Are the drone boats not getting drone HP bonuses? or is it a typo?

Second if I may suggest a change to the Magus

Change the drone bandwidth to 50Mbps and give it a 75m3 drone bay, change the drone damage bonus to a tracking bonus and then give the ship 4 turret hard points. The DPS is comparable but it gives it some separation to the Pontifex

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Rosal Milag
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#117 - 2015-11-17 15:53:15 UTC
afkalt wrote:


There is instant counterplay.

You can scram it, thus shutting off the module AND tackling the ship. Which is both flashy and surrounded by several thousand DPS. It'll have a bad time.


Again, if you can expect combat fleets to do this, you can JUST as easily expect incursion fleets to do this.


ed: And it should only go suspect, imo.


Problem is, in high sec, a gank attempt targets one ship. Yes with a large enough suicide fleet, you can kill an entire incursion fleet. But that is committing numbers and can be noticed on D-scan.

With these destroyers, they can kill a whole fleet in ~5 seconds. With one ship. Tell me how that is not overpowered. I don't care what your thoughts are on incursion runners, that is not the point here. One ship, in high sec, should not be able to effectively kill 10 others illegally in 5 seconds.

PvP fleets are fit to take down PvP ships. A PvE fleet is not designed nor intended to engage a PvP target, especially a destroyer sized target with battleship targeting.
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#118 - 2015-11-17 15:54:13 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
So, will these things be able to only fit one link module regardless of how much command processors stick on them or am I reading this wrong?


They can fit one link without command processors, just like BCs. Adding more command processors enables more links, but most of these can't actually do that due to slot layout and fittings.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#119 - 2015-11-17 15:55:45 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Rosal Milag wrote:
afkalt wrote:


There is instant counterplay.

You can scram it, thus shutting off the module AND tackling the ship. Which is both flashy and surrounded by several thousand DPS. It'll have a bad time.


Again, if you can expect combat fleets to do this, you can JUST as easily expect incursion fleets to do this.


ed: And it should only go suspect, imo.


Problem is, in high sec, a gank attempt targets one ship. Yes with a large enough suicide fleet, you can kill an entire incursion fleet. But that is committing numbers and can be noticed on D-scan.

With these destroyers, they can kill a whole fleet in ~5 seconds. With one ship. Tell me how that is not overpowered. I don't care what your thoughts are on incursion runners, that is not the point here. One ship, in high sec, should not be able to effectively kill 10 others illegally in 5 seconds.

PvP fleets are fit to take down PvP ships. A PvE fleet is not designed nor intended to engage a PvP target, especially a destroyer sized target with battleship targeting.



So bring a SeBod HIC. It's not exactly hard to stop these.

Maybe, >gasp< you need to adapt your fittings. The horror.



But again, what this comes down to is "MAH ISK/HOUR!!!!!"
MuraSaki Siki
ChuangShi
Fraternity.
#120 - 2015-11-17 15:56:32 UTC
1. would command DD move a cyno field with it? and the ship activating cyno?

2. how about marauder with bastion ON?