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PVP or Level 5 Implants for Training

Author
Avvy
Doomheim
#41 - 2015-11-12 10:08:39 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
attribute implants dont affect ship performance? hmmm so slaves, snakes, halos etc do nothing? again implants are a choice just like everything in the game, "dont fly what you cant afford to lose" also applies to implants



Lan, that's a non-argument and you know it.


If the attributes parts of those implants were removed they would still have a function.
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2015-11-12 10:39:50 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
attribute implants dont affect ship performance? hmmm so slaves, snakes, halos etc do nothing? again implants are a choice just like everything in the game, "dont fly what you cant afford to lose" also applies to implants



Lan, that's a non-argument and you know it.


If the attributes parts of those implants were removed they would still have a function.


its not really a non-argument, attribute implants dont need removed because they are a player choice and saying that they should be removed because some people dont get the benefit because they pvp is a non-argument.

whats the difference between an implant that enhances the character training speed to a purple ship mod which gives you a 2.5% extra advantage over a blue mod?

If you aint prepared to lose something you have fitted to your char or your ship then dont fit it, you lose the benefit but thats the choice you make.

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Avvy
Doomheim
#43 - 2015-11-12 10:49:12 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
attribute implants dont affect ship performance? hmmm so slaves, snakes, halos etc do nothing? again implants are a choice just like everything in the game, "dont fly what you cant afford to lose" also applies to implants



Lan, that's a non-argument and you know it.


If the attributes parts of those implants were removed they would still have a function.


its not really a non-argument, attribute implants dont need removed because they are a player choice and saying that they should be removed because some people dont get the benefit because they pvp is a non-argument.

whats the difference between an implant that enhances the character training speed to a purple ship mod which gives you a 2.5% extra advantage over a blue mod?

If you aint prepared to lose something you have fitted to your char or your ship then dont fit it, you lose the benefit but thats the choice you make.



What choice?

You PvP, you get podded you lose your implants. Most people can't afford to keep PvPing in +5's, they don't have a choice they have to use +3's and +4's.

I guess, they could choose to not PvP.


Plus I've already covered in this thread why attributes are not good for this game.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
#44 - 2015-11-12 10:50:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
Lan Wang wrote:
attribute implants dont affect ship performance? hmmm so slaves, snakes, halos etc do nothing? again implants are a choice just like everything in the game, "dont fly what you cant afford to lose" also applies to implants


The attributes on those are an afterthought, don't tell me that you use Slaves because they have attributes on them.
Don't fly what you can't afford to lose is disproportionate in the case of attribute implants, since a pirate implant set costs more than 2 +5 implants, but you're gettinng punished for using it.
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2015-11-12 11:01:42 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
attribute implants dont affect ship performance? hmmm so slaves, snakes, halos etc do nothing? again implants are a choice just like everything in the game, "dont fly what you cant afford to lose" also applies to implants



Lan, that's a non-argument and you know it.


If the attributes parts of those implants were removed they would still have a function.


its not really a non-argument, attribute implants dont need removed because they are a player choice and saying that they should be removed because some people dont get the benefit because they pvp is a non-argument.

whats the difference between an implant that enhances the character training speed to a purple ship mod which gives you a 2.5% extra advantage over a blue mod?

If you aint prepared to lose something you have fitted to your char or your ship then dont fit it, you lose the benefit but thats the choice you make.



What choice?

You PvP, you get podded you lose your implants. Most people can't afford to keep PvPing in +5's, they don't have a choice they have to use +3's and +4's.

I guess, they could choose to not PvP.


Plus I've already covered in this thread why attributes are not good for this game.


everyone has a choice... fit implants or dont fit implants its simple just like the choice of fitting that pith x-type over a t2, ive also been in corps which require you to fit atleast midgrade pirate implants for pvp, nobody forces anything to you in the game and if you want to play the game as skillques online then thats also your choice, if you want to maximise you sp/hr then thats also your choice, if you want to pvp and minimise your losses then thats your choice, cost shouldnt be an argument to remove a load of things from the game and neither should the fact that people prefer to maximise their skill training over people who prefer to die.

I fail to see any punishment in attribute implants, you chose to fight and fighting has costs

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2015-11-12 11:07:10 UTC
however i will add for pve, people in nullsec and low are also losing out, we fit our ships with t2 mods for pve yet highsec can fly multi-billion isk ships, so can we balance something because im losing out on that extra tank and dps because i choose to pvp in nullsec and want to keep my losses to a minimum because i know ill lose my ship sometime

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Avvy
Doomheim
#47 - 2015-11-12 11:10:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Lan Wang wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
attribute implants dont affect ship performance? hmmm so slaves, snakes, halos etc do nothing? again implants are a choice just like everything in the game, "dont fly what you cant afford to lose" also applies to implants



Lan, that's a non-argument and you know it.


If the attributes parts of those implants were removed they would still have a function.


its not really a non-argument, attribute implants dont need removed because they are a player choice and saying that they should be removed because some people dont get the benefit because they pvp is a non-argument.

whats the difference between an implant that enhances the character training speed to a purple ship mod which gives you a 2.5% extra advantage over a blue mod?

If you aint prepared to lose something you have fitted to your char or your ship then dont fit it, you lose the benefit but thats the choice you make.



What choice?

You PvP, you get podded you lose your implants. Most people can't afford to keep PvPing in +5's, they don't have a choice they have to use +3's and +4's.

I guess, they could choose to not PvP.


Plus I've already covered in this thread why attributes are not good for this game.


everyone has a choice... fit implants or dont fit implants its simple just like the choice of fitting that pith x-type over a t2, ive also been in corps which require you to fit atleast midgrade pirate implants for pvp, nobody forces anything to you in the game and if you want to play the game as skillques online then thats also your choice, if you want to maximise you sp/hr then thats also your choice, if you want to pvp and minimise your losses then thats your choice, cost shouldnt be an argument to remove a load of things from the game and neither should the fact that people prefer to maximise their skill training over people who prefer to die.

I fail to see any punishment in attribute implants, you chose to fight and fighting has costs


If you want optimal training then you have no choice other than to not PvP.

With the amount of sp you have, training speed won't matter to you as much anyway.

Cost is always an argument, because cost dictates what choices are available to you.
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2015-11-12 11:40:12 UTC
nothing stops you from fitting +5's and doing pvp so i dont see where you get you that you dont have a choice

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Avvy
Doomheim
#49 - 2015-11-12 11:42:01 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
nothing stops you from fitting +5's and doing pvp so i dont see where you get you that you dont have a choice


Cost stops you.

If you have unlimited amounts of isk, you could do that. But most won't have unlimited amounts of isk.
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2015-11-12 11:59:51 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
nothing stops you from fitting +5's and doing pvp so i dont see where you get you that you dont have a choice


Cost stops you.

If you have unlimited amounts of isk, you could do that. But most won't have unlimited amounts of isk.


cost doesn't mean something should be removed because some people cant afford it and others can.

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Avvy
Doomheim
#51 - 2015-11-12 12:02:20 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
nothing stops you from fitting +5's and doing pvp so i dont see where you get you that you dont have a choice


Cost stops you.

If you have unlimited amounts of isk, you could do that. But most won't have unlimited amounts of isk.


cost doesn't mean something should be removed because some people cant afford it and others can.



You've missed the point.

I'd suggest at this point to take another look at the thread
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
#52 - 2015-11-12 12:43:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
Lan Wang wrote:
nothing stops you from fitting +5's and doing pvp so i dont see where you get you that you dont have a choice


Bring back clone upgrades then, I'm sure people will rejoice at that.

Also, opportunity cost of losing SP, but at this point I've pretty much given up on you. Especially since you're attempting to strawman the arguement by pointing out... PvE ship fits in null.
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2015-11-12 13:02:27 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
nothing stops you from fitting +5's and doing pvp so i dont see where you get you that you dont have a choice


Bring back clone upgrades then, I'm sure people will rejoice at that.

Also, opportunity cost of losing SP, but at this point I've pretty much given up on you. Especially since you're attempting to strawman the arguement by pointing out... PvE ship fits in null.


its been explained already why clone upgrades done nothing for the game, stop feeling so entitled that you are losing something because you engage in pvp and feel you dont have any choices when clearly you do.

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
#54 - 2015-11-12 13:30:51 UTC
Yes, I'm entitled, risk-averse, yadda yadda. Any other buzzwords you got to throw at me?
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#55 - 2015-11-12 16:08:46 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:


Using a +4 over a +5 deprives you of 777,600 SP over the course of a CCP year.

As for hardwirings, they improve the performance of your ship, attribute implants do not.

And yes, 40m is a big deal for PvP pilots, remember when clone upgrades got removed with that exact reasoning?



Clone upgrades got removed because they were a bad business model. If you lost a months worth of training, that was a month that you had actually PAID REAL MONEY for. It was a questionable mechanic, both ethically and legally. It cost you to insure, and it cost you not to insure. The player got zero benefit from either option. The clone 'tax' actually got higher and higher the longer you played. (Which is not how most business's treat their long time customers.)
Clone insurance cost was just the tip of the iceberg on that whole thing.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#56 - 2015-11-13 05:10:25 UTC
Leaving aside all the off-topic whining from people that want to reduce the risk of careless play, and getting back to advice.


The correct answer is to use +5s if and only if you can afford to comfortably replace them, and to price the risk of pod loss into your decision to plug in +5s. This risk is low but non-zero in empire, and high in WH/0.0. Perfect play allows you to always escape with your pod from any weapon that requires a target lock in empire space, but anyone that considers their play to be perfect is lying to themselves, and lying to yourself is the first step to getting an expensive lossmail.

If you aren't able to justify plugging in 450-500m of implants once every X months (where X is your best judgement as to how rare a pod loss will be) - do not do it. Plug in +3s instead, they are cheap and disposable.

Personally I have a +5 clone, a +4 Int +4 Mem clone with implants that benefit small armor ships (Taranis/Enyo/Ishkur/Catalyst), and a +4 Will + 4 Perc clone with implants that benefit medium armor ships (Ishtar/Vexor/Vexor Navy).

I'm considering adding a clone with all +4s and a Rattlesnake/Golem focus as well, which may end up being HG Crystals. Haven't pulled that trigger yet.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#57 - 2015-11-13 20:24:14 UTC
Do pvp in an.environment where you don't lose pods.

I've been doing nothing but PVP for 5 years and never lost a pod in that time.
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2015-11-14 00:02:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Do pvp in an.environment where you don't lose pods.

I've been doing nothing but PVP for 5 years and never lost a pod in that time.


risking pods is for real men, probably becuase you have more logi than you can shake a stick at

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
#59 - 2015-11-14 11:29:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
RavenPaine wrote:
Clone upgrades got removed because they were a bad business model. If you lost a months worth of training, that was a month that you had actually PAID REAL MONEY for. It was a questionable mechanic, both ethically and legally. It cost you to insure, and it cost you not to insure. The player got zero benefit from either option. The clone 'tax' actually got higher and higher the longer you played. (Which is not how most business's treat their long time customers.)
Clone insurance cost was just the tip of the iceberg on that whole thing.


So, I'm paying the same money as someone else but he trains faster because ???
Skill points are an unique resource in EVE online that's directly tied to your sub time, not to anything else, like other ingame resourcess.

Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Perfect play allows you to always escape with your pod from any weapon that requires a target lock in empire space


No. There are ships that can lock your pod in <1sec, and consequently, due to how server ticks work prevent it from warping. It's pretty random, and I've seen the reverse happening, ie, pods warping off while pointed, but it does happen. Nothing is safe.
Jadon Wallace
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#60 - 2015-11-14 17:51:07 UTC
It does come down to risk and reward, you're not entitled to that extra training speed if you go out with a bling pod expect to lose it on the undock. People have suggested some nice alternatives, in particular rolling with 2 +4 implants which are easily affordable and replaceable and having a skill que online clone docked up somewhere.

Use the starmap, look for pod killing in lowsec systems. Avoid those systems or have it scouted, EVE is a sandbox. Don't risk what you can't afford to lose, I lost a +5 pod, deal with it I replaced it 20 mins later because I left knowing it was a possibility. Get in the right mindset and win EVE.