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Balancing Feedback: Assault Ships

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Marian Devers
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
#201 - 2012-01-06 22:12:45 UTC
And will remain useless: the 50% reduction in no way helps their survivability in 0.0; The reason Faction Frigates and Combat Interceptors are used in solo 0.0 is because they have a higher chance of evading gatecamps/small roams/enemy fleets; 4000+km/s speeds do that.

A 50% less signature radius will not. You will still be outrun and scrammed just as easily as before, signature radius reduction or not - and usually while you are still aligning.

A boost to agility would do much more for AF than the mwd signature bonus.
Plutonian
Intransigent
#202 - 2012-01-06 22:46:48 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
@Plutonian
I dunno man, you're guaranteed that there will always be that one type of person who nanos everything.
And that person will be shredded by a competent T1 pilot Blink


Why didn't I think of that? I'll just leroy myself against them until I find one that's s**t-fit. Lol

BRB: Removing AF from my overview.
Christos Hendez
AAA Community
Against ALL Authorities.
#203 - 2012-01-06 22:52:02 UTC
Now CCP please boost titan tracking, so that we can kill the new AF's!
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#204 - 2012-01-06 22:58:29 UTC
Marian Devers wrote:
And will remain useless: the 50% reduction in no way helps their survivability in 0.0; The reason Faction Frigates and Combat Interceptors are used in solo 0.0 is because they have a higher chance of evading gatecamps/small roams/enemy fleets; 4000+km/s speeds do that.

A 50% less signature radius will not. You will still be outrun and scrammed just as easily as before, signature radius reduction or not - and usually while you are still aligning.

A boost to agility would do much more for AF than the mwd signature bonus.


ShockedUghStraightLol
As someone who primarily flies in 00, I can tell you that you are wrong.
Speed means nothing if you're massive. Faction frigates are flown because they are better combatants than combat interceptors for a marginal increase in price.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Ilvari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#205 - 2012-01-06 23:51:14 UTC
Interceptors and Faction Frigates work because they're more designed for small gang stuff. As long as you're only fighting 1-3 people at once you can speedtank incoming damage and survive from that.

As soon as the gangs get larger however you inevitable have multiple Hurricanes or similar ships that project overlaying 30km spheres of instant frigate death. And even if you get into a 1km orbit around one of them to avoid itsdamage, you will still take unrepairable damage from all the others.

If CCP wants to turn Assault Ships into a mid sized gang option, they need to fix the problem of all frigates being not much more than a free killmail as soon as gang sizes go over 10 first. Only then can they start working on making the different types of frigate sized ships find their niche.
Dro Nee
#206 - 2012-01-07 00:03:31 UTC
@Prom / Tallest / authors of the changes

Can you share the rational for the changes outside of the role bonus? Both in the general sense and the specific sense?

For example: What was considered "wrong" with the Ishkur/Jag that is mediated by having an extra low slot? Was the tracking of AC jag (or wolf for that matter) insufficient for it to perform some certain function?

These are just random examples to give a better picture of what I am asking. It would be nice to see what it is CCP/CSM has in mind, before I make some statement I have to walk back later.
Shiroi Okami
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#207 - 2012-01-07 00:40:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Shiroi Okami
There is some huge derp going on in this thread. The second to last (The last being more ecm) thing eve needs is more AB only frigates. They're gay and they're useless outside of lowsec. As someone who flies MWD AFs regularly in 0.0, this buff is going to be amazing, and it's exactly what AFs need. the AB bonus was tried on AFs ages ago, and it was much too broken to ever go live. This sig reduction is not treading on interceptors because they are still much fatter, and they can't hold tackle as well due to reduced speed and range, but it allows them to not get blapped instantly while they get into range, or depending on the fit, allows them to kite in a slicer-esque style. It's much, MUCH better than a bonus which would force all AFs to always fit ABs.

Edit: @ Dro Nee: They couldn't add slots to some that desperately needed them (retribution) without adding slots across the board to keep it balanced. As far as the bonuses go, these bonuses are the never implemented 4th AF bonus. Previously AFs were the only t2 ship missing a bonus, this fixes that. For the jag as an example tracking was obviously the best option to give it, especially seeing as it is based on the rifter and the rifter is a high tracking ship.

My Latest Video: Freestyle III
The Original Alt
Doomheim
#208 - 2012-01-07 01:11:19 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
I would rather have seen the AF geared more towards low sec activities than null sec.


This so very much! ^^

Prom you used to be all about small scale PvP and they you go and join the largest blobbing entity, goons, what happened to you? What?
Dro Nee
#209 - 2012-01-07 02:55:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Dro Nee
Shiroi Okami wrote:
There is some huge derp going on in this thread. The second to last (The last being more ecm) thing eve needs is more AB only frigates. They're gay and they're useless outside of lowsec. As someone who flies MWD AFs regularly in 0.0, this buff is going to be amazing, and it's exactly what AFs need. the AB bonus was tried on AFs ages ago, and it was much too broken to ever go live. This sig reduction is not treading on interceptors because they are still much fatter, and they can't hold tackle as well due to reduced speed and range, but it allows them to not get blapped instantly while they get into range, or depending on the fit, allows them to kite in a slicer-esque style. It's much, MUCH better than a bonus which would force all AFs to always fit ABs.

Edit: @ Dro Nee: They couldn't add slots to some that desperately needed them (retribution) without adding slots across the board to keep it balanced. As far as the bonuses go, these bonuses are the never implemented 4th AF bonus. Previously AFs were the only t2 ship missing a bonus, this fixes that. For the jag as an example tracking was obviously the best option to give it, especially seeing as it is based on the rifter and the rifter is a high tracking ship.



Are you speaking in an official capacity for CCP or CSM? Sorry if I am not current on the names of CCP/CSM alts.
CobaltSixty
Fawkes' Loyal Professionals
#210 - 2012-01-07 03:22:17 UTC  |  Edited by: CobaltSixty
After much consideration (definitely late to the rush on this one), I offer a small counter-proposal for some of the ships that mostly builds on what's been proposed here. Although I'm not entirely sold on the need for a role bonus at all, I have come to realize that the 10MN afterburner-using Assault Frigate that I suggested in some recent threads will be overpowered.

Deviation from the stats in the OP are marked with an asterisk and explained before the next section.

Retribution
  • Added bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed per level*
  • +1 Med-slot
  • +15 CPU
  • +200 armor HP

* The Retribution is near-perfect however, don't make it the first-and-only ship in the game with a 5% tracking bonus. All ships with such a bonus (including the Crusader, also made by Carthum) receive a 7.5% bonus to this effect, besides destroyers which receive 10%.

Vengeance
This is exactly the Vengeance I proposed in a thread on Features & Ideas, plus the role bonus. No changes.

Harpy
No changes.

Hawk
No changes. I don't think it'll lose the shield boost bonus until the Minmatar lose theirs.

Enyo
  • Changed bonus: 5% to Small Hybrid Turret damage now 10% per level
  • +1 Med-slot
  • +200 armor HP
  • +10 CPU
  • Now made by Duvolle* (swap manufacturers with the Nemesis, now a Roden Shipyards vessel)
  • -1 launcher**
  • +5m³ drone bay space, +5MBit/s drone bandwidth**

* An Enyo, especially one with a now-stronger bonus to hybrid damage does not fit with the established Roden Shipyards design philosophy. Exchanging manufacturers with the Nemesis fits both ships very well. Even if the appropriate ship skins cannot be finished in time for the January update, committing to this revision goes a long way to having this whole lineup of ships make sense across the board.
** Other ship stat changes consistent with a Duvolle vessel. The damage output of a light combat drone is approximately equal to that of a rocket launcher.

Ishkur
No changes.

Jaguar
  • Added bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Projectile Turret tracking speed per level
  • +1+ Low-slot
  • +50GJ to capacitor capacity*
  • Changed bonus: 10% to Small Projectile Turret optimal now to falloff**

* One nitpick issue to rectify is the Jaguar's capacitor stats which are presently identical to the Rifter's. This change will put the capacitor total of the Jaguar ahead of the Wolf but behind the rest of the Assault Ships group and is consistent with its role as the utility-minded version with more medium-power slots.
** Whether or not the Wolf has its bonus switched as well (though there are strong reasons not to), the Jaguar's optimal bonus is useless as it is very difficult to use as an artillery platform and falloff is a superior asset to the projectile user.

Wolf
  • Added bonus: 7.5% to Small Projectile Turret tracking speed per level
  • +1 Med-slot*
  • +200 armor HP
  • +15 CPU**

* Minmatar vessels favour med-slots over low-slots. As they make up the middle of the road for mid/low balance along with Gallente, it makes more sense that the Wolf look like a Gallentean AF than the Amarrian Retribution. The Wolf should not have less med-slots than the Rifter it is based on. It should also not be capable of a superior armor tank than the Enyo.
** Med-slot modules typically require more CPU than low-slot modules, so a slightly greater boost is needed.
Zircon Dasher
#211 - 2012-01-07 03:24:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Zircon Dasher
@ Dro What is so hard to understand?

They couldnt give the retribution a slot without everyone whining about how they didnt get one. So everybody gets +1 arbitrary slot

They couldnt give AF the MWD bloom bonus as the 4th bonus because people would be crying even harder than they are now... so everyone gets an arbitrary 4th bonus + a "role" bonus.

People learned a very valuable lesson this summer. Make lots of noise and you get your way. What I want to know is why it took so long for people to figure this out when my 4y/o practices this technique on her mother everyday.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Jaigar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#212 - 2012-01-07 04:25:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaigar
Ilvari wrote:
Interceptors and Faction Frigates work because they're more designed for small gang stuff. As long as you're only fighting 1-3 people at once you can speedtank incoming damage and survive from that.

As soon as the gangs get larger however you inevitable have multiple Hurricanes or similar ships that project overlaying 30km spheres of instant frigate death. And even if you get into a 1km orbit around one of them to avoid itsdamage, you will still take unrepairable damage from all the others.

If CCP wants to turn Assault Ships into a mid sized gang option, they need to fix the problem of all frigates being not much more than a free killmail as soon as gang sizes go over 10 first. Only then can they start working on making the different types of frigate sized ships find their niche.


I think this would be fixed if the explosive radius and signature resolution of medium weapons were changed to 140(Edit: 150 was a bit extreme due to the tracking formula). It gives a slighty better speed tank for small HACs and crusiers vs. battlecrusiers while at the same time making frigates much more difficult to break. It would also increase the importance of target painters and perhaps the usefulness of TDs on frigates.
Dark Stryke
Doomheim
#213 - 2012-01-07 04:42:24 UTC
First off, some good changes in here ♥ AF love.

Now to the real issue with the ships:

Medium / Heavy class neutralizers in relation to frigate sized signitures (especially relatively slow and or cap dependant AF's) need to be looked at. As good as these AF changes are, they still die a horrible quick death to anything running medium or heavy neuts. Just as larger class turrets cannot be 100% effective versus a frigate in standard scenarios, medium and large neutralizers should not be 100% effective vs a standard signature sized frigate.

Neuts need a weapon system style signature applied to each sizing tier, instead of heavies being a total i-win button vs anything small within 25+ km.
Bob Niac
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#214 - 2012-01-07 04:44:00 UTC
Let's Break this down then,

Retribution

* Added bonus: 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed per skill level.
* +1 mid slot
* +15 CPU
* +200 armor hp

Wait .. what? You give a MWD bonus to a ship that seemingly is designed to sit still?

Vengance

* Added bonus: -5% bonus to Missile Launcher Rate of Fire per level
* +1 high slot
* +10 CPU

Meh.

Harpy

* Added bonus: -5% bonus to shield resistances
* +1 low slot
* +200 shield hp
* +10 CPU

I am confused. Hawk is hte ship with the tank, right? Harpy brings the pain?

Hawk

* Added bonus: -5% bonus to Missile Launcher Rate of Fire per level
* +1 mid slot
* +10 CPU

See above.

Enyo

* Added bonus: +5% damage changed to 10% bonus to damage (like taranis does)
* +1 mid slot
* +200 armor hp
* +10 CPU

Mid slot? Hmm ..

Ishkur

* Added bonus: 10% bonus to drone hitpoints per level
* +1 low slot

Here is a new idea .. its a frigate .. make the drones more agile / faster per level.

Jaguar

* Added bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Projectile Turret Tracking per level
* +1 low slot

Wolf

* Added bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Projectile Turret Tracking per level
* +1 low slot
* +200 armor hp
* +10 CPU

Was going to skip matari (I fly the Scimi and about nothing else of value) But there is that tracking / armor bonus again....


I apologize for my snarky attitude. I can assure you this is a match to Prom's ... overwhelming passion about AFs. (I won't go into my opinion of the disproportionate amount of representatives on CSM here =] )

Again, these ship are really well built from the get go. They really don't need sweeping balance. As I have stated previously, i feel they need an ecosystem where they can survive, with proper fleet support.

DIFFERENT, NOT BETTER!
DIFFERENT, NOT BETTER!

Also .. what is the deal with EAS? .. they are all alone in their category. Its .. weird.

PS: I dont design games. I play them. I get that a lot of people are passionate about changes and whatnot. I post on the forums a lot becasue I have all these wacky ideas. Believe it or not .. some of them were actually kind of prophetic or made it into the game. I am not all that good at this, I get it. The thing I see the most on here is that people plant seeds. If you see an idea make it into the game as is? Holy **** you win EVE. But more ideas on here are sprouted from borrowed suggestions. So .. lets throw some stuff out here, and see what the DEVs can use.

[u]I <3 Logistics:[/u] Pilot of all  T2 logi and my shiny Archon [deceased.] Also a Chimera which may or may not be horrid. I don't make games, I play them. I get that ppl are passionate about change. I post here to plant seeds. You see your idea as is? Holy **** you win! So let's post, and see what the DEVs and our peers use.
Bob Niac
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#215 - 2012-01-07 04:48:13 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Marian Devers wrote:
And will remain useless: the 50% reduction in no way helps their survivability in 0.0; The reason Faction Frigates and Combat Interceptors are used in solo 0.0 is because they have a higher chance of evading gatecamps/small roams/enemy fleets; 4000+km/s speeds do that.

A 50% less signature radius will not. You will still be outrun and scrammed just as easily as before, signature radius reduction or not - and usually while you are still aligning.

A boost to agility would do much more for AF than the mwd signature bonus.


ShockedUghStraightLol
As someone who primarily flies in 00, I can tell you that you are wrong.
Speed means nothing if you're massive. Faction frigates are flown because they are better combatants than combat interceptors for a marginal increase in price.


Marginal increase? HUH? Dude... that is so out of perspective it isnt even funny. We are talking about ships that a 6 month old can fly. 50 - 100m isk isnt exactly chump change at that sp.

[u]I <3 Logistics:[/u] Pilot of all  T2 logi and my shiny Archon [deceased.] Also a Chimera which may or may not be horrid. I don't make games, I play them. I get that ppl are passionate about change. I post here to plant seeds. You see your idea as is? Holy **** you win! So let's post, and see what the DEVs and our peers use.
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#216 - 2012-01-07 05:10:35 UTC
one thing I don't get is if the two most used frigate sized classes are having that mwd bonus then why not just reduce the mwd base signature increase and make all frigs especially t1s better with mwds it would also help destroyers a bit doing their job

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Diamond Dogs.
Mercenaires Sans Frontieres.
#217 - 2012-01-07 05:29:08 UTC
the most important thing I have learned from fhc is that prom is opinionated, rude and also very ignorable. do yourselves a favor and just glaze over the diarrhea he sprays indiscriminnately all over the interwebz
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#218 - 2012-01-07 06:08:38 UTC
Jaigar wrote:
I think this would be fixed if the explosive radius and signature resolution of medium weapons were changed to 140(Edit: 150 was a bit extreme due to the tracking formula). It gives a slighty better speed tank for small HACs and crusiers vs. battlecrusiers while at the same time making frigates much more difficult to break. It would also increase the importance of target painters and perhaps the usefulness of TDs on frigates.


The "issue" is not the sig radius, it's the speed. It doesn't matter how low your sig is if your transversal is zero (or near zero), you still take 100% damage. It means that an AB frigate is dead the moment it encounters a MWD cruiser/battlecruiser, and any small ship tends to die instantly if it is targeted in anything but a 1v1 (if you have high transversal against one opponent, you have low transversal against the others).

This of course is why proposals for an AB bonus are so stupid: anything that doesn't give them MWD-level speed is worthless because they can't keep up transversal against medium guns, and anything that does give them MWD-level speed makes them impossible to hit when they do manage to get into range.

End result: the MWD bonus is useful (especially compared to an AB bonus), but it's just a nice little side benefit, not the main point of the AF changes.
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#219 - 2012-01-07 06:51:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
The Original Alt wrote:
Prom you used to be all about small scale PvP and they you go and join the largest blobbing entity, goons, what happened to you? What?
How about you look at my killboard stats and such and notice that nothing has changed. I moved from one blobbing entity to another Roll
It remains the same, I'm associated by name and blue list, that's about it.


@Dro
All CSM member have a banner (see left).
I don't think devs post on eve-o with their *actual* accounts as it's against the rules or something.

@Cobalt
The Retribution could use more tracking OR more damage.
I think that boils down to user preference,but I think a damage increase is more useful considering how it takes a lot to break 200dps in the thing.

The Enyo is a beast without the rocket launcher. Removing the rocket and adding a drone would be unnecessary.
The ship is currently Roden. Yes it doesn't make sense, but that's what it is P

Wolf with an extra mid makes it the superior choice the Jag in every way.
There would be zero reason to fly a Jag over a Wolf as the latter would have the range, tank, and dps advantage.
The Enyo does immense amount of damage, and the Wolf doesn't *really* have as big a tank as people make it out to.
The high resists in EM/Therm make its stats look far more impressive, but that's until you start shooting it with Kinetic or Explosive ammunition.

@Dark
If you're going to be hunting big targets, start carrying a small nosferatu.
I had a Curse tackled without much trouble while using my MWD Harpy.
A small nos cycles fast enough for AFs to maintain dps & tackle against people who don't stagger their neuts.
It's not enough to really active tank when being neuted, no, but that just means you need to rethink your fitting strategy Blink

@Bob
- The Retribution isn't bad, deal with it (??)
- The Hawk & Harpy both have their advantages and disadvantages.
- Drone speed is unnecessary as light drones are already stupid fast and difficult to track with regular old turrets and even rockets. The drone HP bonus makes T2 light drones as *tankable* as T1 medium drones. If you fly the Ishkur, you can appreciate how awesome that is.
- EAS will probably get looked at. They are statistically the least flown ship in the game, ranking far below AFs and Capitals.
- 50 to 100m, what? Faction frigates are about 12-15ish, with Pirate faction being a bit higher up. With FW rewards you can be in a fully T2 fit Slicer long before you could do the same in Crusader or Malediction.

@Zarak
You would feel the same if people started dribbling nonsense over a perfectly serviceable change.
So instead of taking a dump in this thread, go find another wormhole bug to exploit Roll

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#220 - 2012-01-07 07:23:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Forsaken Skipper wrote:

Lisa EF wrote:
Remove: MWD Bonus
Add: 100% Bonus to "Small" Afterburner Speed

Assault ships will be overpowered then. Current boost is nice enough (mistake in tracking bonuses is an exception).


You failed to explain why 100% bonus to afterburner speed would make AF's overpowered.

Even with sign reduction your uber MWD AF will not like to meet 75mm Gatling Rails with long range ammo on DD's, with 1 TE DD can put holes on you with this stuff at over 30km and NEVER miss the target.

Now tell me how good those new AF's are vs tackling Rifters and if they're really worthy of their money.

Edit: 100% Speed bonus would still be less final speed than using MWD and thus leaving interceptors their role. Having a very small sign radius for AF's (about 40m?) with 100% speed AB bonus not only gives them a nice boost to survival factor but also on fittings.