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Faction Citadel Variations
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Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#1 - 2015-11-08 04:06:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
One of the wonderful things about current structures is the variety that racial and faction structures offer. I would like to offer an idea for how *hypothetical* proposed racial versions of the new structures would work, namely citadels. For reference to these ideas, please refer to the original structure thread: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/back-into-the-structure/

-Caldari structures will have a higher number of mid slots than the other racial variations of the structures, and a higher shield rating albeit not as much overall HP as the Amarr ones.

-Gallente structures will have a balanced number of slots and defenses, but have more service slots and storage space than their counterparts. This should make them the most flexible out of all of them overall, but less viable for different niches as the others and should be considered the baseline that the others are compared to.

-Amarr structures will have the highest HP values out of all the structures, and have an abundance of low and high slots. They are offset by having fewer service slots than the others, take longer to online, and require slightly more materials to build than their counterparts.

-Minmatar structures will lean more towards high slots rather than mids, lows, or service slots, and will have the lowest HP values out of all the structures. However, they will have a faster online time and will cost less to build than any of the others.

-Pirate faction variants will follow with an additional slot and higher HP values, and have their BPCs will be available in pirate faction LP stores and have a small chance to drop in nullsec data sites (as well as faction structure module bpcs being found exclusively in data sites). They will follow their faction colors, and are as follows:
Blood Raider structures for Amarr, Guristas for Caldari, Serpentis for Gallente, and Angel Cartel for Minmatar.

CPU/PG or any kind of fitting values were not discussed in any of the blogs, so i would assume they'd follow similar lines to current starbase control towers.

Please let me know what you think!
Felsusguy
Panopticon Engineering
#2 - 2015-11-08 07:13:30 UTC
At first, I was opposed to this idea. Then I saw the specifics of your suggestion. Now I'm extremely opposed.

-1 to the different amounts of service slots.

-1 to different build costs and onlining times. (How would that last one even work?)

-1 to Minmatar having so many high slots.

-1 to unnecessary pirate variants, especially if they are just going to be objectively better than the base structure.

-1 to not offering any explanation as to why this is needed.

The Caldari put business before pleasure. The Gallente put business in pleasure.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#3 - 2015-11-08 20:46:04 UTC
Felsusguy wrote:
At first, I was opposed to this idea. Then I saw the specifics of your suggestion. Now I'm extremely opposed.

-1 to the different amounts of service slots.

-1 to different build costs and onlining times. (How would that last one even work?)

-1 to Minmatar having so many high slots.

-1 to unnecessary pirate variants, especially if they are just going to be objectively better than the base structure.

-1 to not offering any explanation as to why this is needed.

- service slots are just a new kind of slot, and have no reason to be fixed like rig slots.

-different roles necessitate different reasons for deploying, and as such have different values for time and expense.

-it's not "so many high slots" the stabber has more high slots than other cruisers in its class but it pays for them with lows and mids, the same would apply to other structures.

-Are current pirate starbases unnecessary in your eyes? If so, i can understand your reasoning, but they provide a nice 'luxury' option for people who can afford it. The same reasoning for their existence would apply to new pirate faction structures.

-The reason for why this is needed is the same reason why we have variations for starbases. Racial flavor provides a HUGE variety of options that have countless advantages over a single, standard structure that everyone uses. The mere fact that they are going to USE slots should be evidence enough for reason to give them variety. I'm surprised you think that something as self-evident as this needs to be explained.
Braden Fanguard
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#4 - 2015-11-08 23:36:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Braden Fanguard
Catherine Laartii wrote:
The reason for why this is needed is the same reason why we have variations for starbases. Racial flavor provides a HUGE variety of options that have countless advantages over a single, standard structure that everyone uses. The mere fact that they are going to USE slots should be evidence enough for reason to give them variety. I'm surprised you think that something as self-evident as this needs to be explained.


"Racial flavor" isn't supposed to be part of citadels. They are built by capusuleers and for capusuleers. There arn't going to be Minmatar Citadels or Gallente Citadels, just "Citadels."

Catherine Laartii wrote:
Are current pirate starbases unnecessary in your eyes? If so, i can understand your reasoning, but they provide a nice 'luxury' option for people who can afford it. The same reasoning for their existence would apply to new pirate faction structures..


Oh come off it. It takes a VERY long time for pirate towers to pay for themselves and everyone who has ever been part of alliance pos management know it. Pirate faction tower are unnecessary.

Catherine Laartii wrote:
different roles necessitate different reasons for deploying, and as such have different values for time and expense.


You are aware that Citadels are only going to be used as replacements for stations right? The functionality of poses (i.e. moon mining) are going to give way to a whole host of other structures. Citadels are replacing stations, and the other structures are replacing poses. The citadels are only supposed to be used as market hubs, corporate offices and places to dock. Not a huge, wide range of capabilities there.

EDIT: -3 for reasons listed above.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#5 - 2015-11-09 00:38:43 UTC
Braden Fanguard wrote:


You are aware that Citadels are only going to be used as replacements for stations right? The functionality of poses (i.e. moon mining) are going to give way to a whole host of other structures. Citadels are replacing stations, and the other structures are replacing poses. The citadels are only supposed to be used as market hubs, corporate offices and places to dock. Not a huge, wide range of capabilities there.

EDIT: -3 for reasons listed above.

So by your logic, different racial outposts were never a good thing anyway?
Felsusguy
Panopticon Engineering
#6 - 2015-11-09 18:07:35 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
- service slots are just a new kind of slot, and have no reason to be fixed like rig slots.

Wrong. Service slots are part of the station's utility. One empire faction's citadel should not have objectively better utility than another. Unbalanced utility leads to fake variety. Take, for example, the ubiquity of Caldari control towers in high-sec.

Catherine Laartii wrote:
-different roles necessitate different reasons for deploying, and as such have different values for time and expense.

You see, that's the thing. They shouldn't have different roles. A citadel is a citadel. A Magnate is not a Heron, but they still fulfill the same role. They are unique, but equivalent.

Catherine Laartii wrote:
-it's not "so many high slots" the stabber has more high slots than other cruisers in its class but it pays for them with lows and mids, the same would apply to other structures.

Any particularly reason you are holding the Stabber as indicative of the Minmatar as a whole? Becaue most Minmatar ships do not have that sort of distribution, nor does a citadel warrant it.

Catherine Laartii wrote:
-Are current pirate starbases unnecessary in your eyes?

Yes. They are superfluous. Pirate vessels, be they mobile or stationary, deserve unique bonuses and not simply generic improvements over the base hull. And for that matter, I'd rather see Tech II structures before Pirate structures.

Catherine Laartii wrote:
Racial flavor provides a HUGE variety of options that have countless advantages over a single, standard structure that everyone uses. The mere fact that they are going to USE slots should be evidence enough for reason to give them variety.

Variety is fine. You could even call it nice. But variety for variety's sake is just not worth it. Variety is something that emerges in the pursuit of other goals. Some things are added because they are novel and interesting ideas. Others are added because there is a gap to be filled. I'm not saying more variety wouldn't improve the quality of play, but unless you can explain how it would improve it I remain skeptical.

The Caldari put business before pleasure. The Gallente put business in pleasure.
Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#7 - 2015-11-09 18:54:43 UTC
Perhaps faction structure mods and service mods would be a better option that creating a faction citadel. Easier for devs to implement, iterate and balance mods than a whole new slew of structures

Cedric
Braden Fanguard
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#8 - 2015-11-09 19:44:11 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Braden Fanguard wrote:


You are aware that Citadels are only going to be used as replacements for stations right? The functionality of poses (i.e. moon mining) are going to give way to a whole host of other structures. Citadels are replacing stations, and the other structures are replacing poses. The citadels are only supposed to be used as market hubs, corporate offices and places to dock. Not a huge, wide range of capabilities there.

EDIT: -3 for reasons listed above.

So by your logic, different racial outposts were never a good thing anyway?


Correct.
Thron Legacy
White Zulu
Scorpion Federation
#9 - 2015-11-09 21:02:39 UTC
true sansha xl citadel, now on sale for just 30 quadritrillion plexes
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#10 - 2015-11-10 04:10:37 UTC
Dr Cedric wrote:
Perhaps faction structure mods and service mods would be a better option that creating a faction citadel. Easier for devs to implement, iterate and balance mods than a whole new slew of structures

I could get behind that.
Braden Fanguard
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#11 - 2015-11-10 04:49:11 UTC
Dr Cedric wrote:
Perhaps faction structure mods and service mods would be a better option that creating a faction citadel. Easier for devs to implement, iterate and balance mods than a whole new slew of structures



I could also get behind this.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#12 - 2015-11-10 05:55:11 UTC
Hey guys you know those things that are not even in game yet and are probably going to need careful balancing? Yeah let's add in a bunch of faction ones too.





That aside I would never want fraction variants of these it's three first true step players have taken away from npc factions and it should stay as such

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#13 - 2015-11-10 17:35:52 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Hey guys you know those things that are not even in game yet and are probably going to need careful balancing? Yeah let's add in a bunch of faction ones too.





That aside I would never want fraction variants of these it's three first true step players have taken away from npc factions and it should stay as such

The blueprints for these ARE coming out of LP stores, so it's logical that they should should have different racial lines to reflect that.
Felsusguy
Panopticon Engineering
#14 - 2015-11-11 09:26:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Felsusguy
Catherine Laartii wrote:
The blueprints for these ARE coming out of LP stores, so it's logical that they should should have different racial lines to reflect that.

Implants also come out of LP stores, but I've never seen a "Federation Neural Boost" or a "State Ocular Filter".

The Caldari put business before pleasure. The Gallente put business in pleasure.
Tragot Gomndor
Three Sword Inc
#15 - 2015-11-11 09:46:59 UTC
Well, if all 3 citadels look the same, this will be the most boring patch ever. I dont care about slots or bonuses, but for example a sansha citadel with spikes would be great.

NONONONONONO TO CAPS IN HIGHSEC NO
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#16 - 2015-11-15 14:20:49 UTC
The tower we use during our system sieges has a special place in our hearts. It is a glorious large amarr tower and we wouldn't trade it for anything.

We would be happy with just an amarr skin, TBH.
Braden Fanguard
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#17 - 2015-11-15 18:36:17 UTC
I could also get behind the idea of making sounds for the citadels too.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#18 - 2015-11-15 22:25:51 UTC
Felsusguy wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
The blueprints for these ARE coming out of LP stores, so it's logical that they should should have different racial lines to reflect that.

Implants also come out of LP stores, but I've never seen a "Federation Neural Boost" or a "State Ocular Filter".

Hate to break it to you, but Grail, Talon, Spur, and Jackal are racial Mindlink implants are all racial implants available from each empire faction LP store.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#19 - 2015-11-15 23:32:41 UTC
Pretty useless implant sets to be fair though.
And also not what he was talking about.

But yea, we don't need faction variations where one variation ends up the best.
Deukmans Fehrnah
Gaming Dutchies
#20 - 2015-11-18 05:53:13 UTC
racial difference = SKINS


esy, problem solved, next
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