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The imbalance in this game comes down to this...

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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#81 - 2012-01-06 18:33:40 UTC
Muestereate wrote:
Just bring the price way down for exhumers, maybe down to t2 frigate level. It would be affordable, loss = couple hours work to replace, not 20 hours or whatever it costs nowadays. Miners could play like Ninja salvagers then. Could be a lot of fun baiting gankers while making a few isk while you wait. Wouldn't replace ninja Salvaging but would be an extension of the Ninja game. Ninjas are cool 'cept for ponies.


It's called a Retriever. Making exhumers cost less would destroy the economy as suicide-ganking would no longer be harmful to miners.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Muestereate
Minions LLC
#82 - 2012-01-06 20:44:28 UTC
Well a retriever only makes a mill an hour, a hulk makes 10. you can multiply that times 3 for null sec and boost both of those with an Orca. I never mined with a Covetor. Maybe 3 and 10 mill in null but null doesn't really count. The null miner is protected by distance. Past the border systems you have both time and intel and if you have cloakies you just find somewhere else so you can relax and pay attention. Its a different game than High sec miner ganking. High sec miner ganking has its place but it should offer fun for both parties.


I'm not one of the ones that said gankers didn't earn their kills but it is a dry run for the real thing isn't it. Practice. Practice shouldn't have high rewards like the real thing. Your not really multitasking like the miner or the real PVP'er/FC is. If you can practice and break even, that should be a good day. If you want to get rich, it should be when you do the real deal. How much should a miner drop to break even a ganker? Maybe more than that t2 frig I mentioned but less than the current hulk/mac. The hull price is what is out of balance. The module drop may not even be out of balance if we work it out.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#83 - 2012-01-06 20:58:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Muestereate wrote:
How about a creative type job, How much art would you get done if someone came in the office with a gun? Or management, Just how organized would your office be with bombs going off?


I'm pretty sure I'd be flipping a **** and running for my life, thanks. Maybe even trying to throw my chair at the assailant. Not continuing to work.

Edit: Also:

Quote:
No real comparison. The miner is working. The ganker is playing a game. Count mouse/keyclicks. The miner is working real hard at efficiency and doing many tasks at once. Scanning targeting activating, moving ore back and forth.


The miner is paying a subscription to work more. That's funny to me. I have not mined, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt that mining is not laid back. But don't call PvP laid back, please. I'd say we work for our kills, if it didn't smell like a horrible joke.


Yeah, I "work" for the rocks I mine.

1. Choose belt (note, don't choose the top, bottom, or centre belts if you're afraid of a gank)
2. warp to belt
3. Upon landing, tell the orca/fleet to warp to you
4. while waiting for the Orca, get to 24km (or slightly closer) to as many rocks as possible
5. call targets (exact inverse of PvP -- you don't want a lot of people shooting the same thing here)
6. Make sure you have the right crystals,
7. target rocks
8. engage lasers, wait just over 2 minutes for the cycle, (bullshit with corpies, watch d-scan, etc.)
9. move ore into the orca
10. repeat 6 - 9 until the belt is depleted.


just like I "work" to gank bots

1. Choose belt
2. warp to belt
3. upon landing -- is anyone there?
4. if there's someone there, slowboat to them, visually confirm tank whilst en-route, else goto 1
5. as you're slowboating in, check ammo
6. F1,F2, F3, Fn (as needed for guns, point, scram, TP, whatever)
7. when in range, lock the target, first volley should fire instantly (else "YES, I KNOW CONCORD WON'T LIKE THIS!", then fire)
8. you remembered to overheat, right?
9. let guns/drones/stuff cycle untl CONCORD shows up.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#84 - 2012-01-06 21:38:04 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Muestereate wrote:
Just bring the price way down for exhumers, maybe down to t2 frigate level. It would be affordable, loss = couple hours work to replace, not 20 hours or whatever it costs nowadays. Miners could play like Ninja salvagers then. Could be a lot of fun baiting gankers while making a few isk while you wait. Wouldn't replace ninja Salvaging but would be an extension of the Ninja game. Ninjas are cool 'cept for ponies.


It's called a Retriever. Making exhumers cost less would destroy the economy as suicide-ganking would no longer be harmful to miners.


Dude is in a Ret making 6 mill an hr, I'd say he's already ******. I just haven't figured out why assholes insist on pushing people out the door or why CCP let them do it.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#85 - 2012-01-06 22:28:44 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Muestereate wrote:
How about a creative type job, How much art would you get done if someone came in the office with a gun? Or management, Just how organized would your office be with bombs going off?


I'm pretty sure I'd be flipping a **** and running for my life, thanks. Maybe even trying to throw my chair at the assailant. Not continuing to work.

Edit: Also:

Quote:
No real comparison. The miner is working. The ganker is playing a game. Count mouse/keyclicks. The miner is working real hard at efficiency and doing many tasks at once. Scanning targeting activating, moving ore back and forth.


The miner is paying a subscription to work more. That's funny to me. I have not mined, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt that mining is not laid back. But don't call PvP laid back, please. I'd say we work for our kills, if it didn't smell like a horrible joke.


Yeah, I "work" for the rocks I mine.

1. Choose belt (note, don't choose the top, bottom, or centre belts if you're afraid of a gank)
2. warp to belt
3. Upon landing, tell the orca/fleet to warp to you
4. while waiting for the Orca, get to 24km (or slightly closer) to as many rocks as possible
5. call targets (exact inverse of PvP -- you don't want a lot of people shooting the same thing here)
6. Make sure you have the right crystals,
7. target rocks
8. engage lasers, wait just over 2 minutes for the cycle, (bullshit with corpies, watch d-scan, etc.)
9. move ore into the orca
10. repeat 6 - 9 until the belt is depleted.


just like I "work" to gank bots

1. Choose belt
2. warp to belt
3. upon landing -- is anyone there?
4. if there's someone there, slowboat to them, visually confirm tank whilst en-route, else goto 1
5. as you're slowboating in, check ammo
6. F1,F2, F3, Fn (as needed for guns, point, scram, TP, whatever)
7. when in range, lock the target, first volley should fire instantly (else "YES, I KNOW CONCORD WON'T LIKE THIS!", then fire)
8. you remembered to overheat, right?
9. let guns/drones/stuff cycle untl CONCORD shows up.


I do not see a problem with that. You are ganking bots. As you specified in the "miner" section, real miners use d-scan. Those miners should be in warp off the field at some point during #5 in the "bot ganking" section.

What you quoted there is a very poor excuse for "PvP", and one in which you will find no sympathy anyway because the target is a bot and the ganker should be getting paid to eliminate it, not be losing their ship without insurance.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Muestereate
Minions LLC
#86 - 2012-01-06 23:05:18 UTC
little hole in the miner algorithm. step 10 repeat. After hold fills I was always working another box to haul. After your cargo bay fills, you then have extra duties added to that list. If you are not attending all of them perfectly, your yield drops considerably. If you work with a mixed fleet production drops kinda fast unless you have a way to run gamers like Captain Blighs pirate ship for 10 or 15 an hour.

I haven't checked prices or isk rates lately but I never made 6 mill an hour with a retriever.

A miner strives for perfection like a musician hitting all the right notes at the right time. You can get in a nice zone sometimes and sometimes that zone is very very aware of your surroundings and other times its like a drug that numbs you.

Now a ganker strives for perfection too and some are not afraid to repeat in the same methodical way, their actions over and over seeking perfect timing. Most Gankers are not virtuosos though. More are like someone walking up to a Marshall stack and kicking over the guitar. Few could call that music and even then, most would have to light it on fire to get applause.

Bring down exhumer hull costs.
M'nu
Vard School of Cryo Cuisine
#87 - 2012-01-06 23:46:39 UTC
Taedrin wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


I think that there's definitely an argument to be made for allowing the Exhumers a greater range of choice between maximum yield and maximum tank. Obviously it's pointless increasing maximum yield, but a Hulk with all lows/mids/rigs dedicated to tanking should be able to get to around 50k EHP in my opinion. At the moment it tops out at ~30k IIRC.

Alternatively, a tier 3 Exhumer with perhaps slightly less theoretical maximum yield, but considerably greater fitting potential could be introduced. (EG: remove the yield bonus, but add a 3rd low slot and a bunch of grid & CPU). This would have some useful side benefits, including stopping people wailing about Hulk BPOs in MD every 12 days or so.

T1 mining barges can stay as they are for all I care.

Haulers are perfectly fine; Blockade Runners, Orcas, Freighters and Jump Freighters offer excellent options of speed, tank, stealth, range and surreptitiousness for risk management. I lack any sympathy for people who move valuable cargo in untanked Iteron Vs and then wail about getting ganked.


I agree with your principle but think you should take it further.

We need a mining ship designed for deep space use - has a yield which can compete with a Covetor (NOT a hulk) but can tank like a battleship. The idea isn't to be able to fight back - the idea is to wait until reinforcements warp in. Currently mining ships have such laughable tanks that they go down in seconds - it doesn't matter if you have guards or not.


Skiff
Muestereate
Minions LLC
#88 - 2012-01-06 23:53:24 UTC
Try to yank a Mission or anomaly runner out of their hole before your tank runs out. 9 out of 10 will say you shouuldn't be mining. Now if you were bait, you might just get some campers to hang close.
Felds SOl1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2012-01-06 23:55:58 UTC
Ira Theos wrote:
Six years of Eve behind me. 100+ million SP. Been around the block through small Corps in HiSec, LoSec, and in Big Alliance/Corps in Zero. Finally shipping and trading between Zero and HiSec to the point that I can pay for my game time in isk.

HOWEVER....

It pains me for Eve's present and future, to hear comments like Atticus Fynch's, BECAUSE THEY ARE TRUE.

Atticus is clearly "Joe Blow Noob Player"... and regardless of what the Fan Bois' and Bitter Vet's opinions are of the impressions that such Noob Players hold and express about Eve, these very impressions are what determine whether Eve will grow in subscription numbers or remain a "niche" game populated by a relatively few (admittedly sociopathic) players.

As for the sociopaths among us who don't care and say "good riddance" to a potential player like Atticus who they regard as unfit to play Eve, there is no point in discussing the matter further. However, for those among us who would welcome a broader player base, and indeed for CCP who I imagine would like to increase their subscription numbers, I think Mr Fynch's comments are well worth hearing out and paying attention to.

....

.


This is all so true. I am not an avid poster but read these forums quite often. There are countless "Can I has your stuff" or "WoW is that way" or "Don't come back" replies when a "noob" player is genuinely requesting constructive feedback. Just take a look at the first page... there are already examples of this behavior. Eve, as a game has its problems... but I think the community could use some work also.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#90 - 2012-01-07 00:10:38 UTC
M'nu wrote:


Skiff


Skiff has the right idea but downright sucks. Try EFTing one up, compare it to a Retriever even, and you see why. Iterating on the Skiff would make it useful, but I doubt anyone would use it because "HURR DURR MAXIMUM YIELD". Same reason they don't tank their Hulks.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#91 - 2012-01-07 00:11:44 UTC
Felds SOl1 wrote:

This is all so true. I am not an avid poster but read these forums quite often. There are countless "Can I has your stuff" or "WoW is that way" or "Don't come back" replies when a "noob" player is genuinely requesting constructive feedback. Just take a look at the first page... there are already examples of this behavior. Eve, as a game has its problems... but I think the community could use some work also.


The community is full of assholes and nobody denies that. I can myself be a giant ****, but I try to restrict that to obvious trolls, or completely unreasonable people.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
met worst
Doomheim
#92 - 2012-01-07 00:28:43 UTC  |  Edited by: met worst
A lot of what has been said by both parties is true and I won't waste your/my time reiterating what others have said.

One thing I have personally found after 3+ years is to accept one small fact. It's a game, the ships aren't real and after a while anything you fly is easily replaced. Start with a IDGAF attitude and you'll find yourself relaxing.

By this I mean, I put a Hulk out on the belts, maxed for yield and I don't care if it gets killed. I don't care because I have made so much money doing other things that when I occassionally decide to relax and veg out, I just mine while I do other stuff.

Too many new guys in the game try to fly biggest and best when they can't afford to lose it. It's this loss that makes the game so hard to play some days but the choice to spend so much and fly the best must only be made when you can afford the loss.

The catch-phrase " don't fly what you cannot afford to lose" is very true and whilst for some it seems to be an insult, it's probably one of the best pieces of advice you will ever need to take seriously - because it works.

To prove the point of it, go for a fly in null and observe. Even 5-8 year vets fly cheap ships - they expect to lose it.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#93 - 2012-01-07 00:29:00 UTC
This is not to blame on gankers, they are on every game.

CCP should add more tutorials. They did good with the scanning, scramming etc. newer tutorials but so far have not made tutorials about the importance of balancing income vs losses.

Moreover in EvE there's no concept of "guarding" like in other PvP games. Elsewhere, a "tank" uses a short range ability (often called "guard") that greatly reduces the damage taken by the guarded target while transferring it on himself. Moreover the guard gives 4 points of scramble immunity. Since he's tanky, 10k done on the guarded target will not really cause the "tank" any serious consequence. Of course the tank would become attackable (protecting is an hostile action vs the ganker) and then PvP would happen.

So a miner could finally decide to hire someone to really guard him. As of now, you can do all what you want but an alpha ship WILL kill the guarded guy, this is one of the reasons why no one bothers and defense are just about camping the mining ops gate (low sec and 0.0).

Dynamic would work like this:

1) Ganker gets on grid.
2) Tank is protecting another fragile ship (not limited to mining)
3) If ganker attacks, he has to bring in 4 times the firepower to kill the protected ship or can fire on the tank (Concord is disabled on tanks with guard active). If he fires on the tank, Concord will not come, but tank can also shoot back with Concord not coming.

Tanks would come in different models: "brick" that is very cheap but almost can't fire back to aggressive tank that costs like a battleship.

I think this would bring more variety of hi sec (an not) pew pew than the current, "warp in, point, shoot, get kill mail".

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#94 - 2012-01-07 00:42:40 UTC
Atticus Fynch wrote:
STUFF



Why do you still care why people in some internet game act like jerks?

Why don't you just do your stuff the way you want it with people you like and just forget those "scum" exist?
Your ship blows? -man you just forgot your cigarette close to your gas tank, forget it's some crappy individual. Ignore it.

Why should you get mad because of pixels??
Pick some shooter, dl help programs, get in the room blow everything and enjoy destroying others pleasure too. When you have enough, return to eve and smile when you walk on dog crap.

Blink
Atticus Fynch
#95 - 2012-01-07 00:46:09 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Atticus Fynch wrote:
STUFF



Why do you still care why people in some internet game act like jerks?

Why don't you just do your stuff the way you want it with people you like and just forget those "scum" exist?
Your ship blows? -man you just forgot your cigarette close to your gas tank, forget it's some crappy individual. Ignore it.

Why should you get mad because of pixels??
Pick some shooter, dl help programs, get in the room blow everything and enjoy destroying others pleasure too. When you have enough, return to eve and smile when you walk on dog crap.

Blink


Thanks. That's good advice. Big smile

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