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[December] Module Tiericide - Warp Disruption Field Generators

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#241 - 2015-11-07 16:09:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
why would you use HAM's on an onyx when you can use 47.5km RLML's at 511 dps and actually get that full dps?

begs the question why it has range bonuses too light missiles at all really RLML's are OP they should just convert it into a medium assault launcher better tracking and range but less dps than HAM's buff HAM damage nerf its range so its not the same as torps and is actual brawl/tackle range based as its tracking implies.

Then lasers get their role back as the best range weapon system, would like too see conflag and scorch range being toned down a bit (build it into the lasers like last time) and improve the T1/faction ammo so there is less extremes and more useful in between ammo types

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#242 - 2015-11-07 16:11:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
afkalt wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Trinkets friend wrote:
Moac Tor,

That fit...the DPS numbers you quoted at extreme range are 10% of the optimal. So at 37km your Broadsword does 50 / 60 DPS.

It's still a tackle ship. It is, as FT Diomedes says, still a fat, sludgy brick.

I could have gone for an artillery broadsword, although due to the state of artillery I figured it is generally a pretty terrible choice. Although that is a minmatar specific problem. So you are correct the fit that I linked would be needing to operate at around 20km although would have loads of extra room to play with if it needs.

You can achieve a very similar result with the Onyx though;

[Onyx, Onyx PvP]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender
Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 25
50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Warp Disruption Field Generator II, Focused Warp Disruption Script

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

That would give you 582dps @ 30.4 km, or you could fit javelin ammo or use rapid lights or HMLs and hit way beyond that. The rest of the stats are very similar to the Broadsword.

Also I don't understand why you think these will be a "fat, sludgy brick.". They are comparable to any other cruiser. I'd use that description for a a battleship or BC but definitely not a HIC (particularly the shield tanked ones). It will be more like an 'agile fast brick'. And you have to bare in mind that these will stop you from activating a MWD at 37.5km which means they will generally have the range control in almost all encounters.

If these are as powerful as they seem then people will soon be skilled up to level 5 to fly them, and so I wouldn't consider that a balancing factor, and would certainly not be good to balance so heavily on SP from a game design perspective.

(Also I don't usually claim that stuff broken. The last two times I did flag up issues was when Rise announced the Garmur and during the Ishtar and drone dominance meta, on both of which I was right and I remember similar arguments being used by people arguing that the garmur would be fine. I wouldn't be flagging this one up either unless it was obviously horribly broken)


Onyx moves like a crippled slug. What's that, 1500ms or something? My BS are faster.


You're also going to want a painter so lose some tank.

1991 m/s OH / 1410 m/s & 7.9 s align (faster than any BS)

The thing you have to remember is that you can use your scram defensively meaning that your going to have range control because you are turning off your opponents MWD @ 37.5 km. It is that fact coupled with the raw EHP and DPS of the HICs which are the game breakers.

Harvey James wrote:
why would you use HAM's on an onyx when you can use 47.5km RLML's at 511 dps and actually get that full dps?

Because the reload is bloody annoying and HAMs will still give you enough range. But yes it depends what targets you are hunting, for smaller stuff RLMLs will be a much better choice so you don't have to sacrifice tank for a target painter, for target such as BC and above HAMs are a better choice.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#243 - 2015-11-07 16:14:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Colt Blackhawk
Funny but somehow no one realizes the really BIG impacts these changes will bring.

1.) 0.0 exploration with frigs will be dead. Covops frigs will die like flies when not being able to burn cloaked back to gate or out of bubble. Gate camps will eat them. Same with asteros.
To do 0.0 exploration a nullified cloaky tech3 with at least 3 sec align timewill be mandatory.

2.) Cloaky haulers like Crane, Prowler: See 1.)

3.) Kiting fleets will get BIG issues. Hacs that do not need to sacrifice tank and dps for dualprop fits will benefit. Sacrilege for example.

Edit: Tempted to invest some billions ins 0.0 exploration stuffs before they get reaaaaaally rare.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#244 - 2015-11-07 17:28:57 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Trinkets friend wrote:
Moac Tor,

That fit...the DPS numbers you quoted at extreme range are 10% of the optimal. So at 37km your Broadsword does 50 / 60 DPS.

It's still a tackle ship. It is, as FT Diomedes says, still a fat, sludgy brick.

I could have gone for an artillery broadsword, although due to the state of artillery I figured it is generally a pretty terrible choice. Although that is a minmatar specific problem. So you are correct the fit that I linked would be needing to operate at around 20km although would have loads of extra room to play with if it needs.

You can achieve a very similar result with the Onyx though;

[Onyx, Onyx PvP]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender
Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 25
50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Warp Disruption Field Generator II, Focused Warp Disruption Script

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

That would give you 582dps @ 30.4 km, or you could fit javelin ammo or use rapid lights or HMLs and hit way beyond that. The rest of the stats are very similar to the Broadsword.

Also I don't understand why you think these will be a "fat, sludgy brick.". They are comparable to any other cruiser. I'd use that description for a a battleship or BC but definitely not a HIC (particularly the shield tanked ones). It will be more like an 'agile fast brick'. And you have to bare in mind that these will stop you from activating a MWD at 37.5km which means they will generally have the range control in almost all encounters.

If these are as powerful as they seem then people will soon be skilled up to level 5 to fly them, and so I wouldn't consider that a balancing factor, and would certainly not be good to balance so heavily on SP from a game design perspective.

(Also I don't usually claim that stuff broken. The last two times I did flag up issues was when Rise announced the Garmur and during the Ishtar and drone dominance meta, on both of which I was right and I remember similar arguments being used by people arguing that the garmur would be fine. I wouldn't be flagging this one up either unless it was obviously horribly broken)


Onyx moves like a crippled slug. What's that, 1500ms or something? My BS are faster.


You're also going to want a painter so lose some tank.

1991 m/s OH / 1410 m/s & 7.9 s align (faster than any BS)


I routinely roll in battleships both faster and into warp quicker and which can do north of 1200 DPS.

Sure, it's a meta changer but it's far from the end of days. It's not going to be HICs online.


Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Funny but somehow no one realizes the really BIG impacts these changes will bring.

1.) 0.0 exploration with frigs will be dead. Covops frigs will die like flies when not being able to burn cloaked back to gate or out of bubble. Gate camps will eat them. Same with asteros.
To do 0.0 exploration a nullified cloaky tech3 with at least 3 sec align timewill be mandatory.

2.) Cloaky haulers like Crane, Prowler: See 1.)

3.) Kiting fleets will get BIG issues. Hacs that do not need to sacrifice tank and dps for dualprop fits will benefit. Sacrilege for example.

Edit: Tempted to invest some billions ins 0.0 exploration stuffs before they get reaaaaaally rare.



That's because literally nothing changes. Good grief, do you people even understand how the game works and how there's not a SINGLE change for a cloaky frigate who is remotely competent?
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#245 - 2015-11-07 17:39:49 UTC
afkalt wrote:
I routinely roll in battleships both faster and into warp quicker and which can do north of 1200 DPS.

Sure, it's a meta changer but it's far from the end of days. It's not going to be HICs online.

Yes it is a meta changer that screws both BSs and BCs, so its not good for the overall meta at all.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#246 - 2015-11-07 21:02:46 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:

I think my biggest question is what roles do frigates and destroyers play with 37.5km scrams being common on cruisers?

If you think HIC's are going to be common even with this change, you are quite delusional.
HIC's are a highly specialised ship and will continue to be rare even after this change. Can I fly one? Yes, because I can fly anything subcap that is in the combat line (missing a couple of industrial T2's)
Can most people fly a HIC? No.
Will most people train to fly a HIC? Also no.

They are t2 cruisers, and require a short train on top of the normal interdictor skills. Nearly everyone in Idle was a hic pilots very shortly after they were released, and that was just for lowsec camping. add in 37.5km scram range and I can't imagine most people not training for them.

plus HICs got a decent damage boost to make them closer to Hacs. Out of a HAC fleet I'd guess a bunch of people can do a HIC if needed.

afkalt wrote:
Onyx moves like a crippled slug. What's that, 1500ms or something? My BS are faster.


You're also going to want a painter so lose some tank.


not when they are scrammed at 37.5km.

and way to criticize the random hic that someone randomly linked. optimization will happen over time, plenty of min/maxers out there. that said there are still plenty of people that just don't seem to pay attention.

Also as said by others Hics are pretty slow, at least compared to some things. I doubt they are going to be widely used as solo ships. but they can be nano fit, or long range damage fit, there is some flexibility there.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#247 - 2015-11-07 21:40:15 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
[
not when they are scrammed at 37.5km.

and way to criticize the random hic that someone randomly linked. optimization will happen over time, plenty of min/maxers out there. that said there are still plenty of people that just don't seem to pay attention.

Also as said by others Hics are pretty slow, at least compared to some things. I doubt they are going to be widely used as solo ships. but they can be nano fit, or long range damage fit, there is some flexibility there.



Well people seem to be suggesting that you're going to have stupid stuff like the hic can do it all at once so yeah, I picked on the fit.

"zomg 200k ehp! a million dps! a super scramming bubble that breaks cloaks"

It's tiresome so you'll have to forgive me for being grumpy.

Point was that an onyx is slower than a a hurricane with an MWD on, which means it's going to have a terrible time catching stuff. These things have weaknesses alright.
Riela Tanal
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#248 - 2015-11-07 22:00:33 UTC
Are there any plans to allow HICs to be repped while their generators are running?
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#249 - 2015-11-07 22:12:35 UTC
afkalt wrote:
which means it's going to have a terrible time catching stuff. These things have weaknesses alright.

"which means it's going to have a terrible time catching stuff. "

Are you serious?....

And they are no where near as slow as a hurricane. Unless you trying to confuse the issue by saying they are as slow as a hurricane which doesn't have a MWD on compared to an Onyx which does, in which case you will find a lot of cruisers are as slow as a hurricane in that scenario. It seems you are just pulling these facts out of thin air. I'd like to know where you are getting this info from as you haven't provided any factual evidence at all.

"zomg 200k ehp! a million dps! a super scramming bubble that breaks cloaks"

Now your just being stupid, no one has said that. Those of us that have a clue about small gang PvP are just flagging up that this will change the meta and push BCs and BSs into a bad place.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#250 - 2015-11-07 22:18:46 UTC
A lot of people in the thread are being hyperbolic and dumb.

A naked hurricane with a MWD does 1422m/s. The Onyx is 1410

Try it, slap a 50mn cold gas enduring on them both.


[Hurricane, mwd]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]

50MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]



[Onyx, mwd]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]

50MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]


But by all means, tell me more about how I'm pulling these facts from thin air.....

So now that we've established that a BC is, in fact, faster than the HIC perhaps people can take a deep breath and start to be more rational.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#251 - 2015-11-07 22:23:23 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Trinkets friend wrote:
Moac Tor,

That fit...the DPS numbers you quoted at extreme range are 10% of the optimal. So at 37km your Broadsword does 50 / 60 DPS.

It's still a tackle ship. It is, as FT Diomedes says, still a fat, sludgy brick.

I could have gone for an artillery broadsword, although due to the state of artillery I figured it is generally a pretty terrible choice. Although that is a minmatar specific problem. So you are correct the fit that I linked would be needing to operate at around 20km although would have loads of extra room to play with if it needs.

You can achieve a very similar result with the Onyx though;

[Onyx, Onyx PvP]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender
Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 25
50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Warp Disruption Field Generator II, Focused Warp Disruption Script

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

That would give you 582dps @ 30.4 km, or you could fit javelin ammo or use rapid lights or HMLs and hit way beyond that. The rest of the stats are very similar to the Broadsword.

Also I don't understand why you think these will be a "fat, sludgy brick.". They are comparable to any other cruiser. I'd use that description for a a battleship or BC but definitely not a HIC (particularly the shield tanked ones). It will be more like an 'agile fast brick'. And you have to bare in mind that these will stop you from activating a MWD at 37.5km which means they will generally have the range control in almost all encounters.

If these are as powerful as they seem then people will soon be skilled up to level 5 to fly them, and so I wouldn't consider that a balancing factor, and would certainly not be good to balance so heavily on SP from a game design perspective.

(Also I don't usually claim that stuff broken. The last two times I did flag up issues was when Rise announced the Garmur and during the Ishtar and drone dominance meta, on both of which I was right and I remember similar arguments being used by people arguing that the garmur would be fine. I wouldn't be flagging this one up either unless it was obviously horribly broken)


Onyx moves like a crippled slug. What's that, 1500ms or something? My BS are faster.


You're also going to want a painter so lose some tank.

1991 m/s OH / 1410 m/s & 7.9 s align (faster than any BS)

The thing you have to remember is that you can use your scram defensively meaning that your going to have range control because you are turning off your opponents MWD @ 37.5 km. It is that fact coupled with the raw EHP and DPS of the HICs which are the game breakers.

Harvey James wrote:
why would you use HAM's on an onyx when you can use 47.5km RLML's at 511 dps and actually get that full dps?

Because the reload is bloody annoying and HAMs will still give you enough range. But yes it depends what targets you are hunting, for smaller stuff RLMLs will be a much better choice so you don't have to sacrifice tank for a target painter, for target such as BC and above HAMs are a better choice.


Right but the iussue he is complaining about is that light missiles do full damage on everything and you practically need a BC to get full dps out of a HAM launcher - aside from the reload rapid lights are better in every way. You'd need cruisers and above to have a damage reduction vs light missiles to truly offer a choice in small skirmishes. HAM's and Heavies just have terrible application in general.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#252 - 2015-11-07 22:36:03 UTC
afkalt wrote:
A lot of people in the thread are being hyperbolic and dumb.

A naked hurricane with a MWD does 1422m/s. The Onyx is 1410

Try it, slap a 50mn cold gas enduring on them both.


[Hurricane, mwd]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]

50MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]



[Onyx, mwd]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]

50MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]


But by all means, tell me more about how I'm pulling these facts from thin air.....

So now that we've established that a BC is, in fact, faster than the HIC perhaps people can take a deep breath and start to be more rational.

Ok fair enough I just double checked and they are fairly similar. I was thinking pre vanguard hurricanes, the recent buff to agility has obviously put them closer to HICs. That being said BCs and BSs are still going to suffer in the meta with these new super scramming HICs. If one ship has a 37.5km scram and the other one has a 9km scram then the one with 37.5km will dictate the engagement leaving the other ship with practically nothing they can do.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#253 - 2015-11-07 22:40:42 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:

Ok fair enough I just double checked and they are fairly similar. I was thinking pre vanguard hurricanes, the recent buff to agility has obviously put them closer to HICs. That being said BCs and BSs are still going to suffer in the meta with these new super scramming HICs. If one ship has a 37.5km scram and the other one has a 9km scram then the one with 37.5km will dictate the engagement leaving the other ship with practically nothing they can do.


Practically nothing a battleship can do at 37.5km to a Heavy Interdictor? Except shoot the living **** out of it. And neut it dry. While still being able to receive remote repairs.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#254 - 2015-11-07 22:45:38 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:

Ok fair enough I just double checked and they are fairly similar. I was thinking pre vanguard hurricanes, the recent buff to agility has obviously put them closer to HICs. That being said BCs and BSs are still going to suffer in the meta with these new super scramming HICs. If one ship has a 37.5km scram and the other one has a 9km scram then the one with 37.5km will dictate the engagement leaving the other ship with practically nothing they can do.


Practically nothing a battleship can do at 37.5km to a Heavy Interdictor? Except shoot the living **** out of it. And neut it dry. While still being able to receive remote repairs.

Battleships neuts don't reach that far which is why I suggested reducing the range of the scramming effect to 20km and then you'd be correct.

Also a lot of BS will not hit out to 37.5km, and even if they can they won't do enough damage to take down a HIC as they will lose DPS due to falloff. BCs are just completely screwed.

Hopefully you are starting to see the problem now.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#255 - 2015-11-08 01:38:23 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:

Battleships neuts don't reach that far which is why I suggested reducing the range of the scramming effect to 20km and then you'd be correct.

Also a lot of BS will not hit out to 37.5km, and even if they can they won't do enough damage to take down a HIC as they will lose DPS due to falloff. BCs are just completely screwed.

Hopefully you are starting to see the problem now.

You obviously haven't read the new neut thread that comes in at the same time. BS can neut the HIC dry at that range, it will take a fraction longer and the cap booster will last longer. But they can do it. Battleship weapons also reach out to 37km pretty happily, unless you happen to be flying a Blaster BS I suppose with no range improvements. And BC's get a bonus to their range as well, making most of their weapons reach to at least 37km again unless you are talking the shortest range versions.

BS & BC are not going to really be hurt by this. It's as bad an argument as 'think of the newbies'
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#256 - 2015-11-08 02:01:29 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:

Battleships neuts don't reach that far which is why I suggested reducing the range of the scramming effect to 20km and then you'd be correct.

Also a lot of BS will not hit out to 37.5km, and even if they can they won't do enough damage to take down a HIC as they will lose DPS due to falloff. BCs are just completely screwed.

Hopefully you are starting to see the problem now.

You obviously haven't read the new neut thread that comes in at the same time. BS can neut the HIC dry at that range, it will take a fraction longer and the cap booster will last longer. But they can do it. Battleship weapons also reach out to 37km pretty happily, unless you happen to be flying a Blaster BS I suppose with no range improvements. And BC's get a bonus to their range as well, making most of their weapons reach to at least 37km again unless you are talking the shortest range versions.

BS & BC are not going to really be hurt by this. It's as bad an argument as 'think of the newbies'

Heavy neuts are operating at 50% effectiveness at 30km, so again they won't reach. Battleships using torps, autocannons and blasters won't be able to hit either. It is the same story for BCs except that their range is a lot less and they do not have the option to nuet, so again, they are heavily impacted. It seems you don't understand battleships or battlecruisers as well as you think.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#257 - 2015-11-08 02:28:44 UTC
I am not sure what selective-reading crack pipe you're hitting, but the neut will still be working at 37km. A heavy neut will have the neuting power of a medium neut at that range

If you also consider the BS which get flown the most, your Onyx / Broadsword in a one on one are going to struggle. Rattlesnake with Ogres is going to lay down a good 850-950 DPS on the HIC at 37km. Sure, the HIC can move around for a while (couple of minutes with MWD on) but it's not dodging drone or cruise missile DPS from a Rattlesnake. Domi's? Same as the Snake.

Geddon? 550 DPS from drones and full neuting to 38km, 50% to 50km. HIC will cap out pretty damn quick. Bhaalgorn, even easier, and it gets 30km webs.

Machariel might suffer a tad if it gets scrammed, but again, it's got a hefty tank and will do a decent whack of DPS against the sig-bloated HIC.

I don't know what else really gets used in terms of BS these days, maybe a megathron or two. So yes, you'll be able to kite the mega doing 500 DPS with the Onyx, for a couple of minutes until you cap out, and then you're going to have to hope your tank holds up.

Tempests? Utility highs and good falloff from ACs, not too bad.

At the end of the day, the HIC will be a threat to some BS, but not others.

In gang work, your BS is basically counting on getting scrammed. Big Miker might have a bit more trouble making zomg solo videos with 37.5km scram HICs, but he'll adapt I am sure (like, dualpropsfor a start). Mostly by not engaging brawling gangs which field HICs, r ensuring he starts the engagement at range and spreads the HIC away from the other ships.

The 37.5km scramming HIC is FINALLY an answer to the cruisers online kite meta which so annoys everyone who wants to brawl, or use armour, r doesn't want to have to deploy boosts just to compete. This is, frankly, a vital tool for hard-countering shield kiters and giving gangs of slower brawlers an ability to turn off MWD's, overhaul their enemies, and overwhelm them with DPS.

The HIC by itself isn't going to blot out the sun. But it is going to provide a local area deterrent for gangs of armour ships in the tackle role, paired with Huginns and Geddons (neut falloff), you will finally be able to run a small gang of slower ships with damage projection and counter the fast movers. If it deters your orthrus cancer from attempting to come in range and sit in the 30-40km radius plinking away and picking off enemies one by one, then it's a great asset.

The meta will develop around these ships. Few gangs use HICs because of the slow sludginess and the fact infinipoint basically doesn't help except in catching stabbed up smartbombing Rokhs and the odd DST. Now it will give your armour gang a decided potent advantage.

The only concern i really have is frigates and RLML Onyxes. This is an element of concern, as uber scrams will threaten ceptors, tackle frigs etc, and a single HIC could hold off all tackle. But that's the same with RLML Orthrus.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#258 - 2015-11-08 02:56:57 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
I am not sure what selective-reading crack pipe you're hitting, but the neut will still be working at 37km. A heavy neut will have the neuting power of a medium neut at that range

37km is almost 200% falloff for a heavy neut. You'll be doing around 6% of your neuting power, so it is basically worthless. 36 cap drained every 24 seconds to be precise. I am not sure what crack pipe your hitting but it must be some good stuff *chuckles*

Trinkets friend wrote:
If you also consider the BS which get flown the most, your Onyx / Broadsword in a one on one are going to struggle. Rattlesnake with Ogres is going to lay down a good 850-950 DPS on the HIC at 37km. Sure, the HIC can move around for a while (couple of minutes with MWD on) but it's not dodging drone or cruise missile DPS from a Rattlesnake. Domi's? Same as the Snake.

Geddon? 550 DPS from drones and full neuting to 38km, 50% to 50km. HIC will cap out pretty damn quick. Bhaalgorn, even easier, and it gets 30km webs.

Machariel might suffer a tad if it gets scrammed, but again, it's got a hefty tank and will do a decent whack of DPS against the sig-bloated HIC.

I don't know what else really gets used in terms of BS these days, maybe a megathron or two. So yes, you'll be able to kite the mega doing 500 DPS with the Onyx, for a couple of minutes until you cap out, and then you're going to have to hope your tank holds up.

Tempests? Utility highs and good falloff from ACs, not too bad.

At the end of the day, the HIC will be a threat to some BS, but not others.

The HIC will be able to kill any small gang or solo gameplay for blaster mega, hyperion, brutix, AC tempest, maelstrom (have a look, ACs will barely tickle a HIC at that range), torp typhoon, hurricane, cyclone (unless HML), harbinger. There are probably more but that is just off the top of my head. A lot of this would be negated if the scram were 20km or 25km as you first believed a couple of posts ago. Is it worth pushing all those ships down in the meta...

Trinkets friend wrote:
In gang work, your BS is basically counting on getting scrammed. Big Miker might have a bit more trouble making zomg solo videos with 37.5km scram HICs, but he'll adapt I am sure (like, dualpropsfor a start). Mostly by not engaging brawling gangs which field HICs, r ensuring he starts the engagement at range and spreads the HIC away from the other ships.

So your only option when facing a HIC is to not take the fight. A lot of fights that BSs and BCs could have otherwise taken will be off limits now if a HIC is around. Again is it worth it when the HIC would still be a great ship with a 20km scram.

Trinkets friend wrote:
The 37.5km scramming HIC is FINALLY an answer to the cruisers online kite meta which so annoys everyone who wants to brawl, or use armour, r doesn't want to have to deploy boosts just to compete. This is, frankly, a vital tool for hard-countering shield kiters and giving gangs of slower brawlers an ability to turn off MWD's, overhaul their enemies, and overwhelm them with DPS.

Kiting cruisers such as the long pointing orrthus and garmur will still be able to point above HIC range. I'm a big proponent of nerfing those ships in the meta from the day they were released, but what will really kill them though is the new missile disruptors. This extended HIC range isn't necessary or going to work against a good Orthus or Garmur pilot.

I agree with you that HICs having this extended scram is a much needed tool in their arsenal, although I think at the currently proposed range it is overkill that whilst hurting some ships that do deserve to be pushed down in the meta, it will hurt twice as many that don't. And as I said earlier the new missile disruptors will take care of a lot of the kitey missile BS that goes on at the moment without needing this over the top long scram range.
d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#259 - 2015-11-08 03:01:35 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
As someone with HIC V and Graviton Physics V, this makes me quite happy. HIC's are already great ships. Don't make them any easier to get into or they will blot out the sun. A truly awesome and underrated ship class just got better.

There is no reason to add new skills.

PS - WTB four faction WDFG's ASAP!


If anything, HIC's should be harder to get in. They are like in every gang/fleet, usually in multitudes Lol

Been around since the beginning.
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#260 - 2015-11-09 17:50:55 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Suitonia wrote:
A separate script that has reduced range (Maybe 40% of normal) would probably make this a bit more balanced. 37.5km Scrams on T2 HIC is incredibly powerful, and actually stronger than best faction linked heating Lachesis, obviously HICs can't get reps like a Lach can but they still have huge buffers and they will be incredibly problematic for small gangs, especially those without links.


Yeah we've got this in our back pocket. We want to see how this works out, and if its too OP we'll introduce a new scrambling script with a shorter range.


What about preventing RSEBOing and well as RRing while HICscramming. These changes have gate camp cancer potential and that would at least help by limiting HICs to SEBOing themselves.