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[December] Module Tiericide - Warp Disruption Field Generators

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CyberRaver
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#221 - 2015-11-06 23:21:25 UTC
people who think they can roam unimpeded through hostile space without a inty scout are the morons here

Those who are smart will adapt and not be bothered by this change at all
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#222 - 2015-11-07 01:19:44 UTC
I think this is overall a good change for HICs.

The current meta of HICs runs like this:
hisec = gate camping instalock HICs (basically it's just marmites, etc)
lowsec = gate camping instalock HICs, infinipoint HICs for capturing supers with logon traps
nullsec = bubble HICs occasionally (but rarely), infinipoint HICs occasionally
wormhole = camping hisec holes in solo HICs, occasional ganking with bubbles, bubble interdiction in fleet fights

For hisec, the ability to turn off MWDs and MJDs will adversely empower the instalock HICs to capture the only ships capable of escaping them at the moment (MJD fit DST's). Overall, not too bad; the DST could have also been caught by a 3-point scram fit Keres or similar. So a few more people will lose DST's.

The ability to turn off MWD's at 25km isn't too OP considering the presence of Garmurs, Keres, and the new Navy maulus coming.

For lowsec, the ability for a HIC to fit a 25km scram is actually going to see utilisation possibilities increase quite a lot. HICs will become good for tackling kiters, especially considering they will be very tough to kill. I'd expect to see utilisation rates increase markedly.

For nullsec, too, the ability of HICs to deal with MWDing foes will broaden their appeal. Right now they are too slow to be effective long-point ships, and can't stop MJDs with their bubble. This restricts them, really, to gate camping interdiction, which is fine but a lot of foes still MWD and MJD away. Infinipoint scramming will at least allow dual-bubble fits to stop a gang and keep one of them on field. Unlike other long-scram tackle, the tank of HICs will become valuable, unlike a navy maulus or Garmur.

For wormholes, the HIC will become very useful for stopping rolling BS which can often MJD off a hole. The 25km scram is also going to be quite useful for frig hole HICs, especially the Onyx in C13's, which will be able to bubble up through a hole and then have an effective tackle option.

Five stars, would tiercide again!

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#223 - 2015-11-07 01:41:44 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
The ability to turn off MWD's at 25km isn't too OP

Its a shame you based your whole reasoning on the scram range being 25km when in fact it will actually reach up to 39.4km with the faction and 37.5km with the T2. This is further than BS neut range which is effectively the only counter for most battleships.

I agree 25km would have been reasonable. But with the currently suggested ranges I would give them a velocity penalty at the very least, and perhaps a EHP nerf across the board.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#224 - 2015-11-07 01:44:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Suitonia wrote:
A separate script that has reduced range (Maybe 40% of normal) would probably make this a bit more balanced. 37.5km Scrams on T2 HIC is incredibly powerful, and actually stronger than best faction linked heating Lachesis, obviously HICs can't get reps like a Lach can but they still have huge buffers and they will be incredibly problematic for small gangs, especially those without links.


Yeah we've got this in our back pocket. We want to see how this works out, and if its too OP we'll introduce a new scrambling script with a shorter range.

You definitely need to do this at the very least Larrikin. Glad to see you are thinking along the right lines already, but honestly this needs to be introduced before it even reaches tranquillity as it will be completely broken. I said the same thing about the Garmur when it was released and Rise would not listen, now this is another similar situation after we have only just managed to clear up the mess from when the Garmur was released.

I do think a 20km scramming script would be much more reasonable and also reduce the EHP (perhaps replace the resist bonus with something else or just remove it completely).
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#225 - 2015-11-07 03:59:11 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
afkalt wrote:


That being said I've suggested before that they be barred from Rsebos - that seems fair. I'd also not mind a /minor/ scan res reduction?


I am perfectly okay with not allowing remote sensor boosting on a Heavy Interdictor. Suits me just fine.

I don't see what that would solve. It is battlecruisers and battleships that are going to be shafted further down the pile in the overall meta as a result of this, scan res has little bearing on that. Ideally you would either need to reduce the EHP of the HIC and reduce its velocity so that it is vunrable to BCs and BSs when using the infinite point; or you could make its infinite drain a lot of cap and have a short cycle time so that it is vulnerable to neuts.


Then you neuter it for it's anti-capital purposes.

The HIC's primary job is to effectively tackle Capital and Supercapital ships. Everything else is secondary to that.

I'll say it again, I do not care if bringing a HIC makes a "solo" roamer's life a little bit shorter and harder. We do not balance Eve so that "solo" roamers have an easier time. Nor do I care if it makes a gate camp more effective. If someone runs an effective gate camp, then it is on another party to bait them or trap them and kill them. Not to go whine on the forums about it.

HIC's are relatively large, clumsy ships - when you fit them to be the 150K EHP bricks about which some people are complaining. They cannot be repaired while they are doing their primary job. They live and die off their capacitor boosters. They have enough weaknesses not to become totally overwhelming, but they just gained some new power as a side effect of CCP's decision to add 5000mn MWD's.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#226 - 2015-11-07 05:50:09 UTC
man it is interesting reading everyone's point of view on this one Big smile
(half the fun is some people just have no clue)


A few things I would like to note
1. With the script the cycle time on a WDFG is 6 seconds, not too hard to drop cycle and catch reps.
2. The script removes most of the drawbacks on the WDFG, however due to the short cycle time the cap/s use goes up
3. in many cases the hic will only have to put a scripted point on target for a short period while other ships put conventional scrams or webs on.
4. hic points would be outside arazu/lach heated linked scram range Shocked
5. a Hic can fit multiple WDFG and have one a bubble and one scripted, or you know, just switch scripts as needed.

Fun fact: broadsword has a falloff bonus, with 425s and barrage it is doing 23.8% dps at proposed hic point range. Granted that is with no mods that boost falloff, as I mostly threw guns onto a setup I had laying around in eft as the setup didn't care about dps/range too much.


I think my biggest question is what roles do frigates and destroyers play with 37.5km scrams being common on cruisers? Most frigs/destroyers are set up to operate inside 10km, heck 30km is a t2 long point with the interceptor bonus. Frigs rely a lot on speed to tank stuff, and taking away that speed especially at range where slower tracking bigger ships can have a good chance to hit, or missiles that don't get mitigated as much.

a lot of what makes micro gangs successful is that they have ceptor pilots that can get in scram range to tackle opponents. allowing for other members of the gang to get good hits, and also using ewar (usually damps) to counter things like snipers, logi, or recons. typical gangs have a keres which can get overwhelmed pretty easily.

when we talk about not committing to a fight, Fighting out numbered, using your gang comp to the fullest, and constantly out piloting your opponent is different from lol pimp linked + snaked garmur orbiting at 60km till their target gets bored and hits self destruct.

CyberRaver wrote:
people who think they can roam unimpeded through hostile space without a inty scout are the morons here

Those who are smart will adapt and not be bothered by this change at all

being impeded is content Twisted

I always thought people should defend their space and whatnot, but some of that involves having good tools to do so, and of course a motivation to.

overall it very well might be an interesting change that turns new eden into a slugfest where it is always hot drop o'clock. maybe it would be awesome for the game. at the very least probably worth play testing on sisi. maybe even let it go live for a patch or two. See what happens, and bring in the range a bit if needed.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Anthar Thebess
#227 - 2015-11-07 06:59:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Have any one thought that this scram range is intentional.
We will have capital sized MWD , and dreads moving almost 1200m/s

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#228 - 2015-11-07 07:26:08 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:

I think my biggest question is what roles do frigates and destroyers play with 37.5km scrams being common on cruisers?

If you think HIC's are going to be common even with this change, you are quite delusional.
HIC's are a highly specialised ship and will continue to be rare even after this change. Can I fly one? Yes, because I can fly anything subcap that is in the combat line (missing a couple of industrial T2's)
Can most people fly a HIC? No.
Will most people train to fly a HIC? Also no.
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#229 - 2015-11-07 08:51:34 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:

I think my biggest question is what roles do frigates and destroyers play with 37.5km scrams being common on cruisers?

If you think HIC's are going to be common even with this change, you are quite delusional.
HIC's are a highly specialised ship and will continue to be rare even after this change. Can I fly one? Yes, because I can fly anything subcap that is in the combat line (missing a couple of industrial T2's)
Can most people fly a HIC? No.
Will most people train to fly a HIC? Also no.


This hic point isnt even on the same danger scale as RLML for frigates.
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#230 - 2015-11-07 11:09:03 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

If you think HIC's are going to be common even with this change, you are quite delusional.

Can most people fly a HIC? No.
Will most people train to fly a HIC? Also no.


PL checking in 0/
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#231 - 2015-11-07 12:09:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:

I think my biggest question is what roles do frigates and destroyers play with 37.5km scrams being common on cruisers?

If you think HIC's are going to be common even with this change, you are quite delusional.
HIC's are a highly specialised ship and will continue to be rare even after this change. Can I fly one? Yes, because I can fly anything subcap that is in the combat line (missing a couple of industrial T2's)
Can most people fly a HIC? No.
Will most people train to fly a HIC? Also no.

People will train to what is flavour of the month. Plus do you not think most people can already fly or almost fly a HIC, the extra training will be trivial.

You really don't understand Eve players if you cannot see that HICs under this change will completely dominate the meta for small and medium gangs. It is glaringly obvious.
FT Diomedes wrote:
Then you neuter it for it's anti-capital purposes.

The HIC's primary job is to effectively tackle Capital and Supercapital ships. Everything else is secondary to that.

I'll say it again, I do not care if bringing a HIC makes a "solo" roamer's life a little bit shorter and harder. We do not balance Eve so that "solo" roamers have an easier time. Nor do I care if it makes a gate camp more effective. If someone runs an effective gate camp, then it is on another party to bait them or trap them and kill them. Not to go whine on the forums about it.

HIC's are relatively large, clumsy ships - when you fit them to be the 150K EHP bricks about which some people are complaining. They cannot be repaired while they are doing their primary job. They live and die off their capacitor boosters. They have enough weaknesses not to become totally overwhelming, but they just gained some new power as a side effect of CCP's decision to add 5000mn MWD's.

You keep claiming that you don't care if this kills solo roamers, actually this will massively help solo roamers as they will all be using these HICs. And it won't just have implications for solo but also will massively affect small and medium gangs. As I said above the ships that it will affect the most will be BSs and BCs, you will be able to kite and kill them with impunity with a 37.5km scram. I'm not too worried about frigates, but BSs and BCs really don't need this nerf in the overall meta.

Like you say if you reduce the EHP you will neuter them for their anti capital role, although now they have been given another role which is a god mode tackling ship able to kite at 37.5km. I can see why having the extra EHP is important though or they will be useless for anti capital, so really the only solution is to knock down the scram range to around 20km in my opinon. They will still be incredibly useful at that range.

The other alternative could be to have this scram effect only turn off MWDs and not MJDs, with only a conventional scram being able to switch off an MJD as is the case currently.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#232 - 2015-11-07 12:41:26 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Please post your "God-mode" roaming HIC fit. Then fly it and see what happens when it meets a prepared defender. Unless you avoid fitting it like a brick, you will find it arrives late to the party and is easy to catch. HIC's are great ships. I sold all my HAC's a while ago and replaced them with HIC's for home defense purposes. I do not take them roaming, however, because without rigging for warp speed and agility, it is just painful to fly (more like a BC than a Cruiser). And, if you have to run away from more numerous defenders, you will get caught and die.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

DekTo2
Faceless Ronins
COASTAL BROTHERHOOD
#233 - 2015-11-07 12:44:38 UTC
Terrible changes.
Any newbies without flight skiills can kill you with that scram range just siting on gate, impossible to burnout from gate or burn in gate. If HIC warp on wreck or spot in 30km from you - you die, if HIC on gate - you die. Thats changes kill small gang and solo fights and boost ****** gatecamps.
Want easy kills? Learn HICs!

May be HICs need "kill all" button?
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#234 - 2015-11-07 13:01:22 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Please post your "God-mode" roaming HIC fit. Then fly it and see what happens when it meets a prepared defender. Unless you avoid fitting it like a brick, you will find it arrives late to the party and is easy to catch. HIC's are great ships. I sold all my HAC's a while ago and replaced them with HIC's for home defense purposes. I do not take them roaming, however, because without rigging for warp speed and agility, it is just painful to fly (more like a BC than a Cruiser). And, if you have to run away from more numerous defenders, you will get caught and dos.

I don't have many fitting for HICs, and so I just ran this one up in a minute. But it is glaringly obvious it will be overpowered even with a fit which I mocked up in a minute.

[Broadsword, Broadsword (PvP)]
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender
Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive

425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
Warp Disruption Field Generator II, Focused Warp Disruption Script

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

Cap Stable
2440 m/s Velocity
419 DPS @ 3km optimal + 27km falloff
587 DPS @ 1.2km optimal + 15km falloff
108,277 EHP with 267 Passive Regen
37.5km Scram!

Yes, it is pretty obvious even from my rushed fitting that these will be FOTM.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#235 - 2015-11-07 13:55:58 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Please post your "God-mode" roaming HIC fit. Then fly it and see what happens when it meets a prepared defender. Unless you avoid fitting it like a brick, you will find it arrives late to the party and is easy to catch. HIC's are great ships. I sold all my HAC's a while ago and replaced them with HIC's for home defense purposes. I do not take them roaming, however, because without rigging for warp speed and agility, it is just painful to fly (more like a BC than a Cruiser). And, if you have to run away from more numerous defenders, you will get caught and die.

I don't have many fitting for HICs, and so I just ran this one up in a minute. But it is glaringly obvious it will be overpowered even with a fit which I mocked up in a minute.

Fit.


Actually go fly that ship. See how quickly it gets into warp. See how it handles in a fight. Feel free to bring that brick on a roam. Any competent defender will catch it and kill it. All that EHP does not mean much once you are caught by the blob. That's why people do not roam in Battleships or Battlecruisers very often. That's why people roam in fast-as-**** kiting setups. So the blob cannot catch them. So they do not have to commit to a fight.

When I see "Broadsword" reported in the intel channel, I am not going to think "OMG, I do not want to fight that!" I am going to get in my own HIC, grab a few friends in Battlecruisers and Battleships and come kill you. The next time, you will bring the standard Phantasm, Orthrus, OGB Tengu, Malediction, etc...

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#236 - 2015-11-07 14:09:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
FT Diomedes wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Please post your "God-mode" roaming HIC fit. Then fly it and see what happens when it meets a prepared defender. Unless you avoid fitting it like a brick, you will find it arrives late to the party and is easy to catch. HIC's are great ships. I sold all my HAC's a while ago and replaced them with HIC's for home defense purposes. I do not take them roaming, however, because without rigging for warp speed and agility, it is just painful to fly (more like a BC than a Cruiser). And, if you have to run away from more numerous defenders, you will get caught and die.

I don't have many fitting for HICs, and so I just ran this one up in a minute. But it is glaringly obvious it will be overpowered even with a fit which I mocked up in a minute.

Fit.


Actually go fly that ship. See how quickly it gets into warp. See how it handles in a fight. Feel free to bring that brick on a roam. Any competent defender will catch it and kill it. All that EHP does not mean much once you are caught by the blob. That's why people do not roam in Battleships or Battlecruisers very often. That's why people roam in fast-as-**** kiting setups. So the blob cannot catch them. So they do not have to commit to a fight.

When I see "Broadsword" reported in the intel channel, I am not going to think "OMG, I do not want to fight that!" I am going to get in my own HIC, grab a few friends in Battlecruisers and Battleships and come kill you. The next time, you will bring the standard Phantasm, Orthrus, OGB Tengu, Malediction, etc...

The align time is 6.5s so pretty average for a cruiser hull and a LOT less than a BC.

I fly PvP battleships and battlecruisers in solo and small gang settings all the time and so I have a very good idea of what I am talking about.

"All that EHP does not mean much once you are caught by the blob."

Of course your going to die to a blob, that is irrelevant. I am talking about balancing these ships in a 1v1 or small to medium gang setting. Something which it sounds as though you do not have much experience with.

The fact is the fitting I posted will align and move faster than most cruisers, and has the EHP of a battleship, and has a 37.5km scram on top.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#237 - 2015-11-07 14:23:10 UTC
Moac Tor,

That fit...the DPS numbers you quoted at extreme range are 10% of the optimal. So at 37km your Broadsword does 50 / 60 DPS.

It's still a tackle ship. It is, as FT Diomedes says, still a fat, sludgy brick.

i've got a guy in corp who flies HICs exclusively (because he's slow as a bucket of mud and cant handle all that fancy flyin'), and he continually gets out of position with his HIC. Granted, it will help to have God Mode scram, but HICs run out of cap really, really quickly.

There is also a great disadvantage to quoting T2 module figures: few people have T2 bubbles. I have 155M Sp's and I haven't spent a month. I might soon, but not this side of the Capital rebalance. Most HIC pilots will make do with the T1 or meta level WDFG's.

In fact, the Pitfall WDFG is looking more impressive due to the lower velocity penalty. That's a significant thing there.

Consider if your double-bubble HIC has a bubble and a script. It can't overhaul the thing it just turned the scram off of, with its bubble up.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Challus Mercer
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#238 - 2015-11-07 14:27:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Challus Mercer
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Have any one thought that this scram range is intentional.
We will have capital sized MWD , and dreads moving almost 1200m/s

So to balance the capital meta we need to break the small scale meta? Excellent plan!Lol
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#239 - 2015-11-07 15:05:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Trinkets friend wrote:
Moac Tor,

That fit...the DPS numbers you quoted at extreme range are 10% of the optimal. So at 37km your Broadsword does 50 / 60 DPS.

It's still a tackle ship. It is, as FT Diomedes says, still a fat, sludgy brick.

I could have gone for an artillery broadsword, although due to the state of artillery I figured it is generally a pretty terrible choice. Although that is a minmatar specific problem. So you are correct the fit that I linked would be needing to operate at around 20km although would have loads of extra room to play with if it needs.

You can achieve a very similar result with the Onyx though;

[Onyx, Onyx PvP]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender
Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 25
50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Warp Disruption Field Generator II, Focused Warp Disruption Script

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

That would give you 582dps @ 30.4 km, or you could fit javelin ammo or use rapid lights or HMLs and hit way beyond that. The rest of the stats are very similar to the Broadsword.

Also I don't understand why you think these will be a "fat, sludgy brick.". They are comparable to any other cruiser. I'd use that description for a a battleship or BC but definitely not a HIC (particularly the shield tanked ones). It will be more like an 'agile fast brick'. And you have to bare in mind that these will stop you from activating a MWD at 37.5km which means they will generally have the range control in almost all encounters.

If these are as powerful as they seem then people will soon be skilled up to level 5 to fly them, and so I wouldn't consider that a balancing factor, and would certainly not be good to balance so heavily on SP from a game design perspective.

(Also I don't usually claim that stuff broken. The last two times I did flag up issues was when Rise announced the Garmur and during the Ishtar and drone dominance meta, on both of which I was right and I remember similar arguments being used by people arguing that the garmur would be fine. I wouldn't be flagging this one up either unless it was obviously horribly broken)
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#240 - 2015-11-07 15:58:53 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Moac Tor wrote:
Trinkets friend wrote:
Moac Tor,

That fit...the DPS numbers you quoted at extreme range are 10% of the optimal. So at 37km your Broadsword does 50 / 60 DPS.

It's still a tackle ship. It is, as FT Diomedes says, still a fat, sludgy brick.

I could have gone for an artillery broadsword, although due to the state of artillery I figured it is generally a pretty terrible choice. Although that is a minmatar specific problem. So you are correct the fit that I linked would be needing to operate at around 20km although would have loads of extra room to play with if it needs.

You can achieve a very similar result with the Onyx though;

[Onyx, Onyx PvP]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender
Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 25
50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Warp Disruption Field Generator II, Focused Warp Disruption Script

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

That would give you 582dps @ 30.4 km, or you could fit javelin ammo or use rapid lights or HMLs and hit way beyond that. The rest of the stats are very similar to the Broadsword.

Also I don't understand why you think these will be a "fat, sludgy brick.". They are comparable to any other cruiser. I'd use that description for a a battleship or BC but definitely not a HIC (particularly the shield tanked ones). It will be more like an 'agile fast brick'. And you have to bare in mind that these will stop you from activating a MWD at 37.5km which means they will generally have the range control in almost all encounters.

If these are as powerful as they seem then people will soon be skilled up to level 5 to fly them, and so I wouldn't consider that a balancing factor, and would certainly not be good to balance so heavily on SP from a game design perspective.

(Also I don't usually claim that stuff broken. The last two times I did flag up issues was when Rise announced the Garmur and during the Ishtar and drone dominance meta, on both of which I was right and I remember similar arguments being used by people arguing that the garmur would be fine. I wouldn't be flagging this one up either unless it was obviously horribly broken)


Onyx moves like a crippled slug. What's that, 1500ms or something? My BS are faster.


You're also going to want a painter so lose some tank.