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[December] Module Tiericide - Warp Disruption Field Generators

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Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#201 - 2015-11-06 15:25:29 UTC
Like the changes.
Just short reminder: Has CCP considered that the field generator that shuts down MJD and MWD will completely ban cloaky haulers like Prowler or Crane out of null?

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#202 - 2015-11-06 15:26:52 UTC
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Like the changes.
Just short reminder: Has CCP considered that the field generator that shuts down MJD and MWD will completely ban cloaky haulers like Prowler or Crane out of null?



What?
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#203 - 2015-11-06 15:27:49 UTC
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Like the changes.
Just short reminder: Has CCP considered that the field generator that shuts down MJD and MWD will completely ban cloaky haulers like Prowler or Crane out of null?


Only scripted WDFGs shut down MJDs. No lock, no scramble ;)
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#204 - 2015-11-06 15:41:51 UTC
This change totally kills Transport ships as all of its tricks are countered with a single high slot mod. No MWDing back to gate, No MJDing away, + the 2 inbuilt WCS's are neuted by the infi point. = totally useless In low and in null.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#205 - 2015-11-06 15:43:07 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Tappits wrote:
This change totally kills Transport ships as all of its tricks are countered with a single high slot mod. No MWDing back to gate, No MJDing away, + the 2 inbuilt WCS's are neuted by the infi point. = totally useless In low and in null.



I think you'll find the cloak and MWD will still work just fine, unless the camp is fully supported.

Or enjoy the bog standard blockade runner and just wap off cloaked.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#206 - 2015-11-06 16:06:44 UTC
Tappits wrote:
This change totally kills Transport ships as all of its tricks are countered with a single high slot mod. No MWDing back to gate, No MJDing away, + the 2 inbuilt WCS's are neuted by the infi point. = totally useless In low and in null.


I think you will find that a tank, an afterburner, and an MJD make a lot more sense for a transport ship than an MWD and an MJD. With the latter, both your escape modules can be negated with a scram. If the camp would not have killed you anyway, overheating tank and afterburner can get you out of a bubble or back to the gate far more reliably than an MWD.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Challus Mercer
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#207 - 2015-11-06 16:39:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Challus Mercer
Lady Rift wrote:
Challus Mercer wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Challus Mercer wrote:
Aiyshimin wrote:


Easier fix to this is to make it impossible to fit oversized stuff like propulsion and shield extenders & boosters.


So you want to say that the only way to counter long scrams should be cut? How do you suppose then the solo and small scale pilots without scout alt should escape scan res gate camps?



See what's fundamentally wrong here is that you're inferring that dying to a prepared group when you are alone is somehow "bad" or "wrong".

Ed: I should clarify that this is not just you, the quoted poster, this attitude is rife across this thread.

"zomg, that gang of prepared pilots who outnumber me might actually kill me! THE HUMANITY!"


Dying in a fight is not a problem. Pvpers die a lot. The problem are the game mechanics that have (almost) no counterplay like this new scramblers on hictors with insane length. Sure the recons have similar abilities but are much expensiver and easier to kill even if you fight solo against a blob(http://kb.serpent.is/battle/r293011/) kill a hictor in this way will be impossible.

On top of that such heavy tacklers will make frigs even more obsolete.
As i already mentioned im my previous posts - l33t pvpers won't be hurt much by this change, coz they have scouts, links and 100mn ab fits, but new players without all of this gonna feel pain, a lot of pain.



you lost a battlecruiser to a gang and managed to take out a cruiser. doesn't show anything other than the fact that Lachesis got lazy or cocky

just wait till Missile disruptors are in game and you wouldnt of been able to hit anything there.
That's true, BC's and BS's are really bad in this meta but with enough skill you can do at least kills like this. I see no logic in nerfing them even more by introducing long scrams so that no one can use any mjd's anymore. Don't see how it improves our gameplay.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#208 - 2015-11-06 17:19:15 UTC
True solo player here (no alts, links, etc).

This MAY not be a huge change, as arazu/lach have similar scram range when linked. The issue i have is that if you get scrammed by a recon, in most cases its not going to have a 150k+ EHP tank. There is no way to escape as you arent going to kill the HIC before his falcon and 15man gang show up.

As i fly mainly BCs and BS this will be a significant nerf against the only module that makes these ships viable. The MJD. I find it comical that people are saying kiters/soloers dont commit. Yet when i bring a brawler i get kited by a swarm of inties just to wait for the t3s to show up. Door swings both ways. The MJD was my tool to get these kitey gangs to COMMIT against me. Now every gang in null is going to have one of these HICs on standby. Making sure these GANGS dont have to commit to a SOLO roamer.

Roaming gates is also going to be very difficult. As i used to have a 75% chance to dodge a gate camp by activating MJD immediately on uncloak. But instapoint 150k EHP HIC is going to stop that. A BC sure as hell doesnt have the speed/mobility to get back to gate in time before your scrammed and double web. As mentioned by others, there is no counterplay short of cramming oversized ABs. So if someone can show me how to fit MJD, 100mn AB, neuts and 720 arty on my fleet cane, id sure appreciate it.

Anyone who thinks that gate campers arent going to uses these every. Single. Time. Are delusional.

Maybe if HIC is using this script he gets a speed reduction so you have a CHANCE to coast out of range?

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Ele Rebellion
Vertex Armada
The Initiative.
#209 - 2015-11-06 17:36:56 UTC
How much LP will the faction ones cost?
Skir Skor
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#210 - 2015-11-06 17:43:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Skir Skor
Scraming out to 30KM is completely ******** and will end up a broken mechanic, yet I found myself buying the Gravitational Physics and HIC skill books.

Also, balancing ship for the solo pvp'er ain't what Eve is about. You gotta live of the meagre offering and scraps they occasionally throw at us. The tools to kill me at every gate are already in place, it's just the player base choses not to use them all the time.
Mugen Rekisu
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#211 - 2015-11-06 17:47:16 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi M8s!

A: Meta modules will drop from NPCs like current meta modules. The Faction modules will drop & be in LP stores like current Sansha and CONCORD modules.



Does this mean we get appropriate rats? I personally would love to see a True Sansha HIC suddenly bubble a roaming gang, or drag an entire incoming fleet off gate. Shocked
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#212 - 2015-11-06 20:12:39 UTC
As a risk averse kiter, I approve of this nerf to kiting. I'm also happy to see a use for HICs outside cap killing. +2
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#213 - 2015-11-06 20:14:38 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


Maybe if HIC is using this script he gets a speed reduction so you have a CHANCE to coast out of range?


Giving the script same drawbacks as the bubble would be pretty good. Very long range scram on a barely mobile ship sounds balanced.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#214 - 2015-11-06 20:38:15 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
True solo player here (no alts, links, etc).

This MAY not be a huge change, as arazu/lach have similar scram range when linked. The issue i have is that if you get scrammed by a recon, in most cases its not going to have a 150k+ EHP tank. There is no way to escape as you arent going to kill the HIC before his falcon and 15man gang show up.

As i fly mainly BCs and BS this will be a significant nerf against the only module that makes these ships viable. The MJD. I find it comical that people are saying kiters/soloers dont commit. Yet when i bring a brawler i get kited by a swarm of inties just to wait for the t3s to show up. Door swings both ways. The MJD was my tool to get these kitey gangs to COMMIT against me. Now every gang in null is going to have one of these HICs on standby. Making sure these GANGS dont have to commit to a SOLO roamer.

Roaming gates is also going to be very difficult. As i used to have a 75% chance to dodge a gate camp by activating MJD immediately on uncloak. But instapoint 150k EHP HIC is going to stop that. A BC sure as hell doesnt have the speed/mobility to get back to gate in time before your scrammed and double web. As mentioned by others, there is no counterplay short of cramming oversized ABs. So if someone can show me how to fit MJD, 100mn AB, neuts and 720 arty on my fleet cane, id sure appreciate it.

Anyone who thinks that gate campers arent going to uses these every. Single. Time. Are delusional.

Maybe if HIC is using this script he gets a speed reduction so you have a CHANCE to coast out of range?


Stitch, I respect you for playing Eve truly solo, but that is not how the game is designed or balanced. I'm not going to weep for you if you roll through Vale solo in your Fleet Issue Hurricane. I'm going to use whatever I can to kill you. At the end of the day, it won't matter if I have a Lachesis and a Scimitar or a Broadsword and a Scimitar or or an Onyx and a Curse or whatever my friends bring... At the end of the day, you will be dead.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#215 - 2015-11-06 20:44:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
With this change HICs are going to become an essential part of any gang, and will also be great solo fighters.

Personally I think that the base stats on the HICs will need to be toned down; or as some of the others have mentioned perhaps some drawback when using the script.

Having this range on a scram on a powerful hull such as the HIC will be incredibly powerful. And on top you get the option to deploy a bubble. Why would you chose to roam in anything else with a ship this powerful... HACs will be sidelined without a doubt, and this will be a nerf in the overall meta to battlecruisers and battleships which don't really need or deserve it.

Yes this script definitely needs to apply some drawbacks to the velocity or resists of the HIC.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#216 - 2015-11-06 21:30:25 UTC
definitely limit the WDFG's too 1 per ship like interdictors have

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#217 - 2015-11-06 21:33:22 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
True solo player here (no alts, links, etc).

This MAY not be a huge change, as arazu/lach have similar scram range when linked. The issue i have is that if you get scrammed by a recon, in most cases its not going to have a 150k+ EHP tank. There is no way to escape as you arent going to kill the HIC before his falcon and 15man gang show up.

As i fly mainly BCs and BS this will be a significant nerf against the only module that makes these ships viable. The MJD. I find it comical that people are saying kiters/soloers dont commit. Yet when i bring a brawler i get kited by a swarm of inties just to wait for the t3s to show up. Door swings both ways. The MJD was my tool to get these kitey gangs to COMMIT against me. Now every gang in null is going to have one of these HICs on standby. Making sure these GANGS dont have to commit to a SOLO roamer.

Roaming gates is also going to be very difficult. As i used to have a 75% chance to dodge a gate camp by activating MJD immediately on uncloak. But instapoint 150k EHP HIC is going to stop that. A BC sure as hell doesnt have the speed/mobility to get back to gate in time before your scrammed and double web. As mentioned by others, there is no counterplay short of cramming oversized ABs. So if someone can show me how to fit MJD, 100mn AB, neuts and 720 arty on my fleet cane, id sure appreciate it.

Anyone who thinks that gate campers arent going to uses these every. Single. Time. Are delusional.

Maybe if HIC is using this script he gets a speed reduction so you have a CHANCE to coast out of range?


Stitch, I respect you for playing Eve truly solo, but that is not how the game is designed or balanced. I'm not going to weep for you if you roll through Vale solo in your Fleet Issue Hurricane. I'm going to use whatever I can to kill you. At the end of the day, it won't matter if I have a Lachesis and a Scimitar or a Broadsword and a Scimitar or or an Onyx and a Curse or whatever my friends bring... At the end of the day, you will be dead.


Yes but being able to evade the initial camp leads to funner things for both parties, as you have experienced already Cool

Your broadsword was setup to lock me quickly with an infinite point, i MJD'd away from you, the VNI and that falcon that saved the VNIs bacon. I then drew your gang into another system and baited you, and you baited me. We actually played the game and we both had fun and lost ships. If your HIC had the infinite scram it would have been over the moment i popped up in local. Its not a fun mechanic and isnt really exciting IMO i suppose.

Im a bit confused by this mechanic as couldnt you use a linked arazu/lach for the same effect? Except in those cases i would have a chance at killing the recon. Not a 150-200k EHP brick tanked HIC.

I understand the game isnt only about solo play, but it is a play style others enjoy as well as myself. But making a one size scrams all isnt a good mechanic. There is no counterplay. I have no hope to break a HIC as opposed to breaking a recon. Again i see no reason why your gate camps couldnt use a recon instead of a no way to kill HIC instead of a recon.

What is the purpose of giving HICs this ability that a recon couldnt already do? That is my issue.

That being said, i'll adapt as usual.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#218 - 2015-11-06 22:20:16 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
True solo player here (no alts, links, etc).

This MAY not be a huge change, as arazu/lach have similar scram range when linked. The issue i have is that if you get scrammed by a recon, in most cases its not going to have a 150k+ EHP tank. There is no way to escape as you arent going to kill the HIC before his falcon and 15man gang show up.

As i fly mainly BCs and BS this will be a significant nerf against the only module that makes these ships viable. The MJD. I find it comical that people are saying kiters/soloers dont commit. Yet when i bring a brawler i get kited by a swarm of inties just to wait for the t3s to show up. Door swings both ways. The MJD was my tool to get these kitey gangs to COMMIT against me. Now every gang in null is going to have one of these HICs on standby. Making sure these GANGS dont have to commit to a SOLO roamer.

Roaming gates is also going to be very difficult. As i used to have a 75% chance to dodge a gate camp by activating MJD immediately on uncloak. But instapoint 150k EHP HIC is going to stop that. A BC sure as hell doesnt have the speed/mobility to get back to gate in time before your scrammed and double web. As mentioned by others, there is no counterplay short of cramming oversized ABs. So if someone can show me how to fit MJD, 100mn AB, neuts and 720 arty on my fleet cane, id sure appreciate it.

Anyone who thinks that gate campers arent going to uses these every. Single. Time. Are delusional.

Maybe if HIC is using this script he gets a speed reduction so you have a CHANCE to coast out of range?


Stitch, I respect you for playing Eve truly solo, but that is not how the game is designed or balanced. I'm not going to weep for you if you roll through Vale solo in your Fleet Issue Hurricane. I'm going to use whatever I can to kill you. At the end of the day, it won't matter if I have a Lachesis and a Scimitar or a Broadsword and a Scimitar or or an Onyx and a Curse or whatever my friends bring... At the end of the day, you will be dead.


Yes but being able to evade the initial camp leads to funner things for both parties, as you have experienced already Cool

Your broadsword was setup to lock me quickly with an infinite point, i MJD'd away from you, the VNI and that falcon that saved the VNIs bacon. I then drew your gang into another system and baited you, and you baited me. We actually played the game and we both had fun and lost ships. If your HIC had the infinite scram it would have been over the moment i popped up in local. Its not a fun mechanic and isnt really exciting IMO i suppose.

Im a bit confused by this mechanic as couldnt you use a linked arazu/lach for the same effect? Except in those cases i would have a chance at killing the recon. Not a 150-200k EHP brick tanked HIC.

I understand the game isnt only about solo play, but it is a play style others enjoy as well as myself. But making a one size scrams all isnt a good mechanic. There is no counterplay. I have no hope to break a HIC as opposed to breaking a recon. Again i see no reason why your gate camps couldnt use a recon instead of a no way to kill HIC instead of a recon.

What is the purpose of giving HICs this ability that a recon couldnt already do? That is my issue.

That being said, i'll adapt as usual.




I too respect your view, but my challenge is this:

Regional gates aside, I don't see a /material/ difference in camps with this, or with the galleries recon/EAF.

People who cared enough use these already (not many), people who did not I don't see much changing.

In the lone hic scenario you have time to boat back to gate, in 99% of cases anyway. A true solo fit doesn't have dps to write home about and the EHP isn't insurmountable for an appropriate hull to wail on. I.e. it's a T2 ship and an even class T2 will threaten it, as would a T1 size up.

By all means though, post a fit that proves me mistaken, I've been theory crafting HICs a fair bit before this change so I'm pretty aware of their limits. I'd like to have someone one up my fits Smile

That being said I've suggested before that they be barred from Rsebos - that seems fair. I'd also not mind a /minor/ scan res reduction?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#219 - 2015-11-06 22:59:09 UTC
afkalt wrote:


That being said I've suggested before that they be barred from Rsebos - that seems fair. I'd also not mind a /minor/ scan res reduction?


I am perfectly okay with not allowing remote sensor boosting on a Heavy Interdictor. Suits me just fine.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#220 - 2015-11-06 23:10:48 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
afkalt wrote:


That being said I've suggested before that they be barred from Rsebos - that seems fair. I'd also not mind a /minor/ scan res reduction?


I am perfectly okay with not allowing remote sensor boosting on a Heavy Interdictor. Suits me just fine.

I don't see what that would solve. It is battlecruisers and battleships that are going to be shafted further down the pile in the overall meta as a result of this, scan res has little bearing on that. Ideally you would either need to reduce the EHP of the HIC and reduce its velocity so that it is vunrable to BCs and BSs when using the infinite point; or you could make its infinite drain a lot of cap and have a short cycle time so that it is vulnerable to neuts.