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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Stepping into Faction Warfare

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Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#101 - 2015-11-05 20:57:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:

I definitely fall on the side of reducing the strength of the garmur and worm. Other pirate frigs are stronk, but those two are just nuts.


One thing that sort of makes this hard to understand in faction war is the plex restrictions versus the actual intended power of the ships.

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg

Note some modification of this here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKx87NwKaIE&feature=youtu.be&t=8m19s

Now according to this chart it would seem that pirate faction frigates are supposed to be more powerful than tech 2 frigates. Now I think with interceptors ccp did accomplish its objective. I wouldn't say interceptors are more powerful than pirate frigates but they are more specialized and perform their specialized role better. But assault frigates just seem clearly more powerful than pirate ships except for the garmur and worm.

So the question is whether the other pirate ships are supposed to be where the garmur and worm are, or are assault ships supposed to be stronger than pirate frigates as the current plex restrictions seem to imply?

It would make sense that a pirate frigate that costs 2 to 3 times as much as a assault frigate would be more powerful. But it seems to me that other than the worm and garmur they are clearly less powerful. The daredevil is sort of middle of the road. But the dram succubus and cruror are quite a bit weaker than afs. I would say the succubus cruror and dram are on par with plain navy frigates that often cost about 20% as much. I would say you have in order gaining power
1)vannilla t1 frigates,
2)navy faction frigates along with succubus, cruror and dram,
3)Daredevil and t1 destroyers
4) AFs
5) worm and garmur

IMO if ccp wants to justify the price of pirate frigates so they are more powerfull than afs then they need to bring the other pirate frigs up to be competitive with the worm and garmur. (I would think they would also then not allow pirate frigates in novices)

If however they want the power of the ships to match the plex restrictions so t2 ships should be more powerfull then it would seem we should bring the pirate ships in line with the daredevil.







what

no, just no. Except the Cruor, pirate frigs (well, some fits) can absolutely **** on most AFs, and generally rip navy frigs apart, no way they can be put on the same level

Example, Succubus (underpowered in your opinion) can completely murder hawks, harpies, enyons, wolves, jags, retris. TBH the only ones it has problems dealing with are brick tank ishkurs and vengeances, but it can easily disengage from them.




I don't know what to say other than I just disagree on both a fleet level and on a smaller gang/solo level. Wolves and Jags are not great I agree. But a gang of them could easilly fight off a group succubus. The retribution is one ship that I agree could use a buff. The succubus may be able to get away but it won't hold a plex from the vast majority of assault ships.

They cost 2-3xs as much and are just weaker than afs.

Yes pirate frigates are generally are stronger than navy frigates but they are supposed to be since they are about 5-6xs the cost. Even there the dramiel is pretty pathetic.

edit: tracking might be an issue for solo wolves so I changed that to groups.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Doctor Knuckles
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#102 - 2015-11-06 14:55:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctor Knuckles
Cearain wrote:



I don't know what to say other than I just disagree on both a fleet level and on a smaller gang/solo level. Wolves and Jags are not great I agree. But a gang of them could easilly fight off a group succubus. The retribution is one ship that I agree could use a buff. The succubus may be able to get away but it won't hold a plex from the vast majority of assault ships.

They cost 2-3xs as much and are just weaker than afs.



Succubus is no fleet hull (like most pirate frigs). It shines as a solo boat, or at most as a (very) small gang guest star.

But solo... oh man. I ******* love it. Try it again, trust me.

But, let's take a moment to see how it fares against AFs, 1v1.

- Hawk, the classic dual masb fit. Succubus orbits at edge of scram range fast as ****, rockets fall short or deal extremely low damage if he loads javs. You're shooting into its resist hole. Hawk dies.

- Harpy. Blaster fit? Orbit at scram range, or keep at distance or orbit close if you're rocking an armor fit with a TD. Rails? orbit close, it won't track you for ****. Flawless victory both cases. Once again shooting into resist hole.

- Enyo. Same as Harpy mostly, blaster enyos might need a td on them to outrack them tho. Not shooting into resist hole but enyos aren't generally all that tanky

- Retri. Well, two mids, you know how it goes.

Wolf and Jag, they suck, they die.

Now this leaves only Ishkur and Vengeance. Both are usually bricks, but tbh they can be done, just not easily. Ishkur if you manage to **** up its drones and still be alive (not impossible at all, your uber AB will reduce incoming damage quite a lot) he's toast really. Vengeance is trickier for the simple reason that it could literally take you ages to kill, but he can't really blap you either tbh
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#103 - 2015-11-06 18:12:02 UTC
Solo:
All the mwd Afs are faster than an ab succubus. AFs have a nice bonus to mwds and usually decent fitting room (which the succubus lacks). So fitting a succubus to kite will probably not turn out well against most afs. I would rather have the mwd af every time. If you put a mwd on a succubus you are either losing a valuable mid (if you dual prop) or losing the main point of the ship (if you go without an ab).



Hawk: my CN rockets on a hawk hit out past scram range. Even with missile projection and bombardment at level 4 you hit to 13.2k. Most competent hawk pilots will at least put one tech 2 em shield rig on. Whether its 2 masbs or 1 with 2 webs the hawk has this fight pretty easilly. If you happened to fit a td to your succubus its even easier for the hawk. You might be able to get away but that is about it.

You may be able to get in close on a rail harpy or enyo but with an mwd they are faster than your succubus, albeit less manuverable. I'm calling that just a fun fight but I would still pick the rail mwd kiters.

As far as a blaster harpy/enyo with no back up plan for long range or scram kiting, then yeah they will die. But they will die to a kestrel. That is just a dumb way to fit a solo ship. Give me 2 enyos or 2 blarpys versus 2 succubus's and I am betting pretty hard on the afs.

As for the 2 midslot afs that is a problem for solo. The retri is really only about as good as the coercer. But in a gang with some some sort of logi the retri might have a place - I can't say.

The wolf has the resist profile to make shield tank but only has 2 midslots. Yeah that ship is in a bad place.

The jag is pretty bad as far as afs but that will likely kill or chase off a succubus fairly easilly. You seem to agree on the vengence and ishkur.

So solo I would say jag, hawk, ishkur and vengence win. I would take a rail harpy over a succubus but I would call that a tie. Enyo as a solo ship is better for jumping in on more than one frigate than a succubus but I will give you that and the wolf and retri.

The but the wolf and retri are really not solo ships with only 2 midslots.

So if solo is supposed to justify the succubus costing 2-3xs as much as an af I am not seeing it at all. There are just many clearly stronger afs to choose from. Its an overpriced ship that I would really love to be decent.


By and large what I said applies to all the other pirate frigates as well except the garmur and worm. The afs are simply more powerfull even when flown solo.

The big advantage of the succubus is that it is not so strong as afs so you will get more fights than if you sit there in a hawk ishkur or vengence.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Yang Aurilen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#104 - 2015-11-06 22:57:14 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Solo:
All the mwd Afs are faster than an ab succubus. AFs have a nice bonus to mwds and usually decent fitting room (which the succubus lacks). So fitting a succubus to kite will probably not turn out well against most afs. I would rather have the mwd af every time. If you put a mwd on a succubus you are either losing a valuable mid (if you dual prop) or losing the main point of the ship (if you go without an ab).



Hawk: my CN rockets on a hawk hit out past scram range. Even with missile projection and bombardment at level 4 you hit to 13.2k. Most competent hawk pilots will at least put one tech 2 em shield rig on. Whether its 2 masbs or 1 with 2 webs the hawk has this fight pretty easilly. If you happened to fit a td to your succubus its even easier for the hawk. You might be able to get away but that is about it.

You may be able to get in close on a rail harpy or enyo but with an mwd they are faster than your succubus, albeit less manuverable. I'm calling that just a fun fight but I would still pick the rail mwd kiters.

As far as a blaster harpy/enyo with no back up plan for long range or scram kiting, then yeah they will die. But they will die to a kestrel. That is just a dumb way to fit a solo ship. Give me 2 enyos or 2 blarpys versus 2 succubus's and I am betting pretty hard on the afs.

As for the 2 midslot afs that is a problem for solo. The retri is really only about as good as the coercer. But in a gang with some some sort of logi the retri might have a place - I can't say.

The wolf has the resist profile to make shield tank but only has 2 midslots. Yeah that ship is in a bad place.

The jag is pretty bad as far as afs but that will likely kill or chase off a succubus fairly easilly. You seem to agree on the vengence and ishkur.

So solo I would say jag, hawk, ishkur and vengence win. I would take a rail harpy over a succubus but I would call that a tie. Enyo as a solo ship is better for jumping in on more than one frigate than a succubus but I will give you that and the wolf and retri.

The but the wolf and retri are really not solo ships with only 2 midslots.

So if solo is supposed to justify the succubus costing 2-3xs as much as an af I am not seeing it at all. There are just many clearly stronger afs to choose from. Its an overpriced ship that I would really love to be decent.


By and large what I said applies to all the other pirate frigates as well except the garmur and worm. The afs are simply more powerfull even when flown solo.

The big advantage of the succubus is that it is not so strong as afs so you will get more fights than if you sit there in a hawk ishkur or vengence.


You forgot the best part. Can enter novices so you can murder those who think they're safe inside novices.

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2015-11-07 18:58:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Demerius Xenocratus
I think the pirate frigs are mostly okay except for the garmur and the worm. Both of which only go from really good to pants on head insane when combined with links.

Seriously, EFT a dual republic fleet MSE fit worm with max links. It's got almost as much EHP as a T1 cruiser. And the 10k m/s garmur needs no introduction.

The primary weakness of AF's is their speed, or lack thereof. They can't dictate range.