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[December] Module Tiericide - Neutralizers and Nosferatu

First post
Author
Circumstantial Evidence
#81 - 2015-11-05 20:05:26 UTC
Somethingski wrote:
Small question do they stop working if you get past optimal+falloff or will they still cycle when a ship is out of range can i use a small neut on a ship thats 100km away and basicly cap myself out?
We can run out of ammo shooting at things in our lock range, but beyond effective range, so... i'd say yes.
Feodor Romanov
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#82 - 2015-11-05 20:09:11 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Feodor Romanov wrote:
This changes is a nerf for neuts specialized ships. For example my Armageddon with t2 neut have optimal range 37,8 km. After the patch it will be 30km+12,5km. Neuts at falloff range will neut me more then my target! More then half of second faloff range will be useless even for the ships with neuts strength bonuses. All this falloff is usefull only when you have Cap Booster and your target has not.


30km op 15km falloff you mean


"Ships with existing bonuses to Neut/Nos Optimal Range will receive a 2nd half strength bonus to Falloff"
For Geddon it will be 5% for skill lvl, so 12,5 km falloff.
Alexis Nightwish
#83 - 2015-11-05 20:14:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexis Nightwish

Other tiericide threads have docs that show the current modules, and we are also told what the current modules will be turned into. For example I have no clue what my Small Infectious Power System Drain will become after the change.

Could we please get an updated doc showing this?

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Alexander McKeon
Perkone
Caldari State
#84 - 2015-11-05 20:18:27 UTC
It definitely seems like officer neuts are getting hit rather hard here; both in terms of effective neuting capability at current ranges where they're an important defensive tool for capitals and relative to the (presumably) far more prevalent deadspace variants. Is there any possibility of a decreased cycle time or something to distinguish the officer modules? 10 less CPU and 9% more neut power seem like a very small benefit over other variants as compared to that enjoyed smartbombs or tackle modules over their non-officer counterparts.
Alexis Nightwish
#85 - 2015-11-05 20:18:58 UTC
I'm not a fan of making NOS and Neuts have the exact same range. I think you'll see from usage statistics that neuts are used FAR more than NOS are, and by reducing the range of NOS (to be equal to neuts) people will be even less inclined to fit them. I mean it's bad enough that NOS cost more to fit.

Was really hoping for a NOS buff, not a nerf. Sad

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

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Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#86 - 2015-11-05 20:36:42 UTC
M3phistopheles wrote:
I'm not a fan of the meta names;

Quote:
Heavy Gremlin Compact Energy Neutralizer


Quote:
Heavy Infectious Scoped Energy Neutralizer


They seem very WoW to me. I would suggest changing them to;

Heavy Gremlin Compact Energy Neutralizer -> Heavy Compact Energy Neutralizer

Heavy Infectious Scoped Energy Neutralizer -> Heavy Ranged Energy Neutralizer

These simpler names make their function easier to understand. You do not need the sick nasty descriptive word in the module name.


they tried that on the first round of tiericide, we didn't like it very much. they took the "arbalest" out of the compact light missile launcher. and later added it back. as someone else said searching unstable gives all the meta 4 neuts, being able to search like that is a good thing imo. or searching for 100mm for all 100mm plates, or 100mn for all 100mn afterburners.

however I do think the flavor and description names should go on the outside of the name so "heavy energy neut" will search for ALL heavy energy neuts, and not skip over the meta 1 variants. they seem to be pretty inconstant with that overall.

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Lijhal
Innoruuks Wrath
#87 - 2015-11-05 20:52:34 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi M8s!

As part of our December release, we're doing a module tiericide pass on Neutralizers and Nosferatu. Tell us what you think!

Goals

Changes
  • Added Effectiveness Falloff
  • This works by reducing the effectivness of the module when in falloff. Formula is the same as gun falloff formula
  • at 100% Optimal + 0% Falloff = 100% Effectivness (approx figures only)
    at 100% Optimal + 100% Falloff = 50% Effectivness (approx figures only)
    at 100% Optimal + 200% Falloff = 6% Effectivness (approx figures only)
  • Renamed Market Group to 'Energy Neutralizers' & 'Energy Nosferatu'
  • Neutralizers & Nosferatu won't activate on targets they can have no effect on
  • Ships with existing bonuses to Neut/Nos Optimal Range will receive a 2nd half strength bonus to Falloff
  • Added Deadspace Neutralizers



does that mean nos&neuts are going to have reduced effectivness when NOT at optimal range or will they always have 100% effectivness as long they are in optimal range ?
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#88 - 2015-11-05 21:25:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Interesting........

I think the scoped versions should have the same range as the T2. The T2 has already has a big advantage in terms of the extra cap drain, and so it wouldn't hurt giving the scoped version a little extra range.

Apart from that this looks like it will make cap ewar fights a lot more fluid due to the fact they can be activated at any range now. I really like the overall concept.
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#89 - 2015-11-05 23:31:14 UTC
Masao Kurata wrote:
Wow don't you think you've gone a bit overboard with the deadspace stats? Those are officer level ranges. Deadspace modules aren't exactly rare drops, these will be used very widely.


Yer most X-Type mods are better than 90% of officer gear anyway now.
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#90 - 2015-11-05 23:33:14 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
I'm not a fan of making NOS and Neuts have the exact same range. I think you'll see from usage statistics that neuts are used FAR more than NOS are, and by reducing the range of NOS (to be equal to neuts) people will be even less inclined to fit them. I mean it's bad enough that NOS cost more to fit.

Was really hoping for a NOS buff, not a nerf. Sad


Something something were is my 42.0km optimal X-type nos?
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#91 - 2015-11-05 23:45:53 UTC
Aquila Sagitta wrote:
This is a massive buff too neuts/nos. 80km neuts on geddon is gonna be nuts. Not to mention bhaalgorns 50km super nos Shocked

edit: I'm bad at math. Geddons will get ~10km more range than current.


80/40 becomes something like 40/20.. so max range would be ~60km. still under the bling overheated points on a certain recon ship.
XIII Badluck
JINRO The Wolves Brigade
#92 - 2015-11-06 00:07:09 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi M8s!

As part of our December release, we're doing a module tiericide pass on Neutralizers and Nosferatu. Tell us what you think!

Goals

Changes
  • Added Effectiveness Falloff
  • This works by reducing the effectivness of the module when in falloff. Formula is the same as gun falloff formula
  • at 100% Optimal + 0% Falloff = 100% Effectivness (approx figures only)
    at 100% Optimal + 100% Falloff = 50% Effectivness (approx figures only)
    at 100% Optimal + 200% Falloff = 6% Effectivness (approx figures only)
  • Renamed Market Group to 'Energy Neutralizers' & 'Energy Nosferatu'
  • Neutralizers & Nosferatu won't activate on targets they can have no effect on
  • Ships with existing bonuses to Neut/Nos Optimal Range will receive a 2nd half strength bonus to Falloff
  • Added Deadspace Neutralizers


Stats


Q&A
Q) Can you clarify 'Ships with existing bonuses to Neut/Nos Optimal Range will receive a 2nd half strength bonus to Falloff'?
A) Sure, the Sentinel bonus is currently -
80% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer Range

After the patch it will be -
80% bonus to Energy Nosferatu and Energy Neutralizer transfer optimal range
40% bonus to Energy Nosferatu and Energy Neutralizer transfer falloff range

Q) 'Neutralizers & Nosferatu won't activate on targets it can have no effect on' Does this include targets who are out of capacitor (for neutralizers,) or are below the level of capacitor where a nosferatu would be effective?
A) No. Nos and Neuts will always activate on Ships, and NPCs. But, you can't activate them on Asteroids, Stargates, etc.

Q) What happens to my existing meta 1-4 modules?
A) They will get changed into the new meta modules (A list will be posted above)

I hate you CCP
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#93 - 2015-11-06 00:07:25 UTC
I've suggested this previously, but here it is again....

Under the current system/schedule of module tiericide, it is going to take years to get all of the modules under the new naming scheme.

The current mix of tiericided and un-tiericided modules is confusing for new players - and unnecessary. I recommend that CCP first do a "pure and fast" tiericide pass on *all* modules, to (a) standardize naming conventions and (b) remove unnecessary metas. This should be done quickly, without worrying about redesigning how the modules work, nor doing any rebalancing of stats - preferably within one release cycle; two cycles at most. There isn't any need to solicit much player feedback for simple tiericide.

After all of the modules have been tiericided, CCP and players can leisurely spend more time on specific module redesign and rebalancing.
Madrax573
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2015-11-06 01:21:51 UTC
I only have used the small/medium NOS/Neuts and with these changes it just looks like apart from the new deadspace modules there will be an overall reduction in effectiveness.

All they have done is split the overall range into Op and falloff and reduced base neut amount. This is just a nerf to overall effectiveness.

e.g.

Current unstable power fluct (Meta4) neut: 6.3km range 54GJ - 100% effective unto that range
New Infectious scoped neut : Optimal 4.5km and fall off of 2.25km so total range seems better at 6.75km however it only neuts 50GJ and at 6.3km it would be the equivalent of 80% or 50GJ = 40GJ neutralised. I don't see how this is anything but a nerf to the small neutraliser range.

The new DED modules however are great but I can't see them being that common.

Unless I have my maths wrong (quite possible) this just seems a nerf to standard neut combat. At least for smalls and mediums.

Are neuts THAT powerful to require a nerf to balance them?
Rockstara
Reaction Scientific
#95 - 2015-11-06 01:32:22 UTC
for neuts - deadspace power level seems pretty high relative to officer versions. It'd be nice to have a broader range of options between the officer versions maybe some really long falloff but low base range or really really compact fittings in the meta 11-5 range instead of C/B-type range with 8% stronger effect.

Actually all X-type modules are easily available and cheap. Most are sub 100M isk.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#96 - 2015-11-06 02:17:42 UTC
Cool changes, so when are you releasing the new capless laser turret stats or the new capacitor demand on air conditioners and artilleries?

Oh and while we are at it, when can we see the Curse and Pilgrims new powergrid stats with those "changes"?

Did someone else also ever got confused that the only class of ships that can fit medium deadspace nos's are battleships and up?

And why would enyone ever want to fly anything else but an aircondition boat after this?

Sure the small missle pirate faction boat that gets neuted and scramed and missile deactived from 1000AU away. So no more missiles in 2016?

So it will be an almost awesome sentry drone and aircondition online in farmville-lands online. Yeay??

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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2015-11-06 02:58:54 UTC
Querns wrote:
Very interesting. This gives supercaps the ability to neut hictors pointing them no matter what. Before, you needed a meta 15+ officer neut to be able to reliably neut out a hictor (for the range.) Now, you can at least add some cap pressure to a hictor tackling you at any range.

I guess Capital Energy Neutralizers would have done that too. Maybe. I'm assuming they'd have longer range than Heavies.

Capital neuts should have a very long cycle time, and neut resistance modules (like the capacitor battery) should protect a small amount of capacitor at the bottom of the pool.

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Musashibou Benkei
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#98 - 2015-11-06 10:20:08 UTC
Why does CCP insist on homogenizing all the faction variants? They really ought to take a lesson from the shield extender and armor plate playbook and given different properties to different faction nos' and neuts. Blood raider ones should obviously nos/neut the most at the cost of increase powergrid etc etc.

There are plenty of other modules which are completely ignored because they are identical to a cheaper variant. Differentiation will re-invigorate disenfranchised faction mods.
CCP Larrikin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#99 - 2015-11-06 12:28:10 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:

  • Added Effectiveness Falloff
  • This works by reducing the effectivness of the module when in falloff. Formula is the same as gun falloff formula
  • at 100% Optimal + 0% Falloff = 100% Effectivness (approx figures only)
    at 100% Optimal + 100% Falloff = 50% Effectivness (approx figures only)
    at 100% Optimal + 200% Falloff = 6% Effectivness (approx figures only)


is this will work at those percentages, or will apply at those percentages?

in other words at 100% optimal + 100% falloff will it have a 50% chance to hit, or will it hit for 50% of transfer amount?


50% Effectiveness, or 50% Transfer. Not a chance-to-hit.

Game Designer | Team Phenomenon | https://twitter.com/CCP_Larrikin

CCP Larrikin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#100 - 2015-11-06 12:28:48 UTC
Lijhal wrote:

does that mean nos&neuts are going to have reduced effectivness when NOT at optimal range or will they always have 100% effectivness as long they are in optimal range ?


If they are within optimal range they will be 100% effective.

Game Designer | Team Phenomenon | https://twitter.com/CCP_Larrikin