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PVP or Level 5 Implants for Training
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Silver Dagger Kondur
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2015-11-05 22:36:29 UTC
Greets!

Say one wants to PVP
But
Say one also wants to train skills a little more rapidly.

So, one buys level 5 implants for perception, will, etc.
but
PVPs in a jump clone with no implants or maybe level 2 or 3.

So... how does one both train rapidly and PVP? After all, you will be podded sooner or later, and one does not want to be buying a set of level 5 implants every few minutes or days.
Aeniec
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2015-11-05 22:48:33 UTC
+4s are only like 80 mil for implants 1-4.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#3 - 2015-11-06 05:03:04 UTC
I would generally buy just the two +4 implants I am currently training. If I ever lose a pod with more than two, it means I haven't got caught in a LONG time.
Then keep a +5 guy that you jump to when the fighting is over.
Train the info-morph skills so you can jump in less than 24 hours and jump back every other day.

Never fly less than +3s. They are so cheap.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#4 - 2015-11-06 20:35:40 UTC
If you stick to high/lowsec, you really don't have much of an excuse to ever lose a pod
Sheeth Athonille
Rabid Dogz Mining
#5 - 2015-11-07 00:14:55 UTC
Yeah stay out of null and it's usually pretty safe to run +4's or +5's (start aligning and spamming warp as you're about to lose your ship). If I'm in a wh or null then I'll usually use +3's since they are so cheap.
Silver Dagger Kondur
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2015-11-07 00:34:21 UTC
Thanks, everyone for the answers!
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#7 - 2015-11-08 06:15:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
If you stick to high/lowsec, you really don't have much of an excuse to ever lose a pod


Svipuls can lock your pod before it warps. And that's not taking the cheeky smartbombers into account either. Just axe attribute implants. I mean, why should I risk 40m pod to fly a frigate? etc. etc. rehash arguements to remove clone upgrades.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#8 - 2015-11-08 07:15:50 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
If you stick to high/lowsec, you really don't have much of an excuse to ever lose a pod


Svipuls can lock your pod before it warps. And that's not taking the cheeky smartbombers into account either. Just axe attribute implants. I mean, why should I risk 40m pod to fly a frigate? etc. etc. rehash arguements to remove clone upgrades.



clone upgrades wasn't a choice. it was pay or lose sp.


why should you risk a 40 mil pod in a frig? you don't have to if you don't want to that's the beauty of it, if you do then you are training a little faster.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#9 - 2015-11-08 08:05:37 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
If you stick to high/lowsec, you really don't have much of an excuse to ever lose a pod


Svipuls can lock your pod before it warps. And that's not taking the cheeky smartbombers into account either. Just axe attribute implants. I mean, why should I risk 40m pod to fly a frigate? etc. etc. rehash arguements to remove clone upgrades.



clone upgrades wasn't a choice. it was pay or lose sp.


why should you risk a 40 mil pod in a frig? you don't have to if you don't want to that's the beauty of it, if you do then you are training a little faster.


Well, I either pay for implants or lose SP by not having them. Not really a choice either.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#10 - 2015-11-08 21:30:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Rift
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
If you stick to high/lowsec, you really don't have much of an excuse to ever lose a pod


Svipuls can lock your pod before it warps. And that's not taking the cheeky smartbombers into account either. Just axe attribute implants. I mean, why should I risk 40m pod to fly a frigate? etc. etc. rehash arguements to remove clone upgrades.



clone upgrades wasn't a choice. it was pay or lose sp.


why should you risk a 40 mil pod in a frig? you don't have to if you don't want to that's the beauty of it, if you do then you are training a little faster.


Well, I either pay for implants or lose SP by not having them. Not really a choice either.



you dont lose sp.


losing sp is going from hac 5 to hac 4. from 35 million sp to 34.5 million sp.


Edit: if you are going to believe you are losing sp by not using implants than its 200 mil you are risking not 40 cause under your train of thought you need +5's all the time. not +4's
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#11 - 2015-11-09 11:11:57 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
If you stick to high/lowsec, you really don't have much of an excuse to ever lose a pod


Svipuls can lock your pod before it warps. And that's not taking the cheeky smartbombers into account either. Just axe attribute implants. I mean, why should I risk 40m pod to fly a frigate? etc. etc. rehash arguements to remove clone upgrades.



clone upgrades wasn't a choice. it was pay or lose sp.


why should you risk a 40 mil pod in a frig? you don't have to if you don't want to that's the beauty of it, if you do then you are training a little faster.


Well, I either pay for implants or lose SP by not having them. Not really a choice either.



you dont lose sp.


losing sp is going from hac 5 to hac 4. from 35 million sp to 34.5 million sp.


Edit: if you are going to believe you are losing sp by not using implants than its 200 mil you are risking not 40 cause under your train of thought you need +5's all the time. not +4's


If I spend a CCP year in a +4 clone vs spend a CCP year in a +5 clone, I would have 1,555,200 SP less.

And your edit makes the problem even more evident. Axe attribute implants, they're just bad gameplay.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#12 - 2015-11-09 12:47:22 UTC
It adds risk vs reward, it adds choice, it adds depth. I also have to decide if the advantage of ascendancy implants are worth running +3s instead of +5s.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#13 - 2015-11-09 12:52:53 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
It adds risk vs reward, it adds choice, it adds depth. I also have to decide if the advantage of ascendancy implants are worth running +3s instead of +5s.


None of the above. Not running attribute implants is about as much of a choice as not upgrading your clone was. Every arguement that could be made against the clone upgrade system can be made against attribute implants, word for word.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#14 - 2015-11-09 13:10:55 UTC
Reward: More SP/Faster training
Risk: Getting podded and losing the implants.

In some areas of space you are more likely to get podded thus the risk is increased. You have to make a choice if the reward you get is worth the increased risk. You can even decided on the amount of isk you want to risk and that dictates the amount of reward you get. There is choice, there is weighing of risk vs reward. With the SP loss for not upgrading your pod there was no reward, just risk. "Not losing SP" is not a reward so not upgrading your pod was simply an isk sink. You either kept your pod upgraded or you forgot to upgrade your pod, there was no choice in the matter.

Even looking at the choice between +5s and +3 Ascendencies. With the ascendancies I warp faster, thus I can make more isk, but the price i pay for it is slower SP progression over running +5s. Again, choice, depth. If I have a lot of free time I don't have to worry about isk as I can just run more missions, that way I can get maximum SP. If I have less time available I want to maximise my isk potential at the cost of training speed.

Before someone makes the argument based on training skills, that also was never about choice. You either trained learning skills or you were at a disadvantage for absolutely no reward.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#15 - 2015-11-09 13:41:18 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
If you stick to high/lowsec, you really don't have much of an excuse to ever lose a pod


Svipuls can lock your pod before it warps. And that's not taking the cheeky smartbombers into account either. Just axe attribute implants. I mean, why should I risk 40m pod to fly a frigate? etc. etc. rehash arguements to remove clone upgrades.


why should you risk a 40mil pod? isnt that your choice? you have jumpclones if you are scared to lose a 40mil pod, try losing a slave set in a frigate Pirate

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#16 - 2015-11-09 13:42:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
Anize Oramara wrote:
Reward: More SP/Faster training
Risk: Getting podded and losing the implants.

In some areas of space you are more likely to get podded thus the risk is increased. You have to make a choice if the reward you get is worth the increased risk. You can even decided on the amount of isk you want to risk and that dictates the amount of reward you get. There is choice, there is weighing of risk vs reward. With the SP loss for not upgrading your pod there was no reward, just risk. "Not losing SP" is not a reward so not upgrading your pod was simply an isk sink. You either kept your pod upgraded or you forgot to upgrade your pod, there was no choice in the matter.

Even looking at the choice between +5s and +3 Ascendencies. With the ascendancies I warp faster, thus I can make more isk, but the price i pay for it is slower SP progression over running +5s. Again, choice, depth. If I have a lot of free time I don't have to worry about isk as I can just run more missions, that way I can get maximum SP. If I have less time available I want to maximise my isk potential at the cost of training speed.

Before someone makes the argument based on training skills, that also was never about choice. You either trained learning skills or you were at a disadvantage for absolutely no reward.


Extreme case: if you do not plug in any training implants you lose about 1/4 of the SP training over the year.

Your example with the higher ISK efficiency with the ascendancies is a very bad one, since SP is time based, and if you do not get the maximum now, you're never ever getting it back. On the other hand, you have a myriad of ways to make ISK for yourself, some more effective, others not. So, to summarise, it's mechanically better to have two +5 implants for your current remap than it is to have an Ascendancy set.

And finally, if you chose not to train training skills, you could train something else, making you more effective in combat fro example. See what I did there?

Lan Wang wrote:
why should you risk a 40mil pod? isnt that your choice? you have jumpclones if you are scared to lose a 40mil pod, try losing a slave set in a frigate Pirate


That's the whole point, it's not a choice. I'm not scared about losing a 40m pod in a frigate, I am 100% that it will happen at some point, hence why I'm screwing myself out of SP by flying it instead of having a more expensive +5 clone.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#17 - 2015-11-09 15:59:03 UTC
The game gives every player a base training speed. It's equal across the board for every paid subscription.
Then the game gives you options to increase that speed. Each player gets to make his own decision on those options, and decide for himself how important the risk vs reward is.
This option is also equal across the board for every paid subscription.
Fast training time is not an entitlement, nor is it mandatory to play EVE. But it is an "option"
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#18 - 2015-11-09 16:55:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
RavenPaine wrote:
The game gives every player a base training speed. It's equal across the board for every paid subscription.
Then the game gives you options to increase that speed. Each player gets to make his own decision on those options, and decide for himself how important the risk vs reward is.
This option is also equal across the board for every paid subscription.
Fast training time is not an entitlement, nor is it mandatory to play EVE. But it is an "option"


Training skills were optional too and they got removed. There's really no good arguement for keeping attribute implants.
Sheeth Athonille
Rabid Dogz Mining
#19 - 2015-11-09 22:42:25 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:
The game gives every player a base training speed. It's equal across the board for every paid subscription.
Then the game gives you options to increase that speed. Each player gets to make his own decision on those options, and decide for himself how important the risk vs reward is.
This option is also equal across the board for every paid subscription.
Fast training time is not an entitlement, nor is it mandatory to play EVE. But it is an "option"


Training skills were optional too and they got removed. There's really no good arguement for keeping attribute implants.


Correction, there are plenty of good arguments for keeping attribute implants, just none that you will agree with. Everything everyone else has said is valid, you just don't accept the for whatever reason. That's fine, but don't claim there are no good reasons.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#20 - 2015-11-10 06:15:01 UTC
People eventually run out of things to train that they want, need or even can use.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
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