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War dec trolls.

First post First post
Author
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#161 - 2015-11-03 21:11:15 UTC
As much I agree that wardecs are broken (they allow basically risk-free PVP, large war-dec machines like Marmite can just farm newbros for ISK), people would just find around this proposed limit. Easy enough to get alt corps to wardec.

I'd be in favor of any kind of change that forced hisec campers to come out to null sec or lowsec for PVP content though. I realize the possibility of having to fight on even terms would generate massive amounts of tears though.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#162 - 2015-11-03 21:12:37 UTC
Murkar Omaristos wrote:

I'd be in favor of any kind of change that forced hisec campers to come out to null sec or lowsec for PVP content though


You won't get that without forcing the prey to go there first. Predators go where the prey are. And CCP has, over the years, made sure that the prey never have to leave highsec.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#163 - 2015-11-03 21:18:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Murkar Omaristos
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Murkar Omaristos wrote:

I'd be in favor of any kind of change that forced hisec campers to come out to null sec or lowsec for PVP content though


You won't get that without forcing the prey to go there first. Predators go where the prey are. And CCP has, over the years, made sure that the prey never have to leave highsec.



There's plenty to fight in null sec, it's just stuff that shoots back. You're right though, risk vs. reward is seriously unbalanced atm, hi-sec is too juicy for good targets to leave.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#164 - 2015-11-03 21:19:10 UTC
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Murkar Omaristos wrote:

I'd be in favor of any kind of change that forced hisec campers to come out to null sec or lowsec for PVP content though


You won't get that without forcing the prey to go there first. Predators go where the prey are. And CCP has, over the years, made sure that the prey never have to leave highsec.



There's plenty to fight in null sec, it's just stuff that shoots back.


Go ahead and read my comment over again.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#165 - 2015-11-03 21:52:53 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Go ahead and read my comment over again.


I read your comment multiple times.
it insinuates that you want targets, not combat.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#166 - 2015-11-03 21:56:01 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Go ahead and read my comment over again.


I read your comment multiple times.
it insinuates that you want targets, not combat.


And again I must roll my eyes. Roll

I want non consensual PvP. That's pretty much what EVE exists for.

I'll reiterate. If you want the predators to leave highsec, you need to force the prey out too. Predators will go where the prey are. Until CCP finally grows the spine to slay the sacred cow of highsec, the prey are not incenvitized to go anywhere else.

Nevermind the hilarious hypocrisy involved in suggesting that it's perfectly okay to force a playstyle out of highsec, while constantly railing against any suggestion that carebears should ever leave.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Felsusguy
Panopticon Engineering
#167 - 2015-11-03 22:01:09 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I'll reiterate. If you want the predators to leave highsec, you need to force the prey out too.

Dunno what you're talking about. There are plenty of 'bears out in null-sec.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Nevermind the hilarious hypocrisy involved in suggesting that it's perfectly okay to force a playstyle out of highsec, while constantly railing against any suggestion that carebears should ever leave.

You're one to talk of hypocrisy.

In the immortal words of Professor Oak, there is a time and place for everything. Factional warfare occurs in low-sec. Sovereignty is exclusive to null-sec. It is not hypocritical to suggest that a region of space favor one play style more strongly than another, and neither is such a thing foreign to EVE.

The Caldari put business before pleasure. The Gallente put business in pleasure.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#168 - 2015-11-03 22:04:37 UTC
Felsusguy wrote:

It is not hypocritical to suggest that a region of space favor one play style more strongly than another, and neither is such a thing foreign to EVE.


It is absolutely hypocritical to suggest that anyone else have to leave highsec, and demand that you be immune to the same.

Hypocrisy is the literal founding pillar of the carebear. You are literally saying "more effort for thee but not for me". You, and every carebear, are hypocrites.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Felsusguy
Panopticon Engineering
#169 - 2015-11-03 22:10:18 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Felsusguy wrote:

It is not hypocritical to suggest that a region of space favor one play style more strongly than another, and neither is such a thing foreign to EVE.


It is absolutely hypocritical to suggest that anyone else have to leave highsec, and demand that you be immune to the same.

Hypocrisy is the literal founding pillar of the carebear. You are literally saying "more effort for thee but not for me". You, and every carebear, are hypocrites.

No, it's not hypocritical. Biased, maybe, but not hypocritical.

Speaking of biased, you should really stop lumping people together into categories that they don't fit.

The Caldari put business before pleasure. The Gallente put business in pleasure.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#170 - 2015-11-03 22:12:24 UTC
Felsusguy wrote:

No, it's not hypocritical. Biased, maybe, but not hypocritical.


Yes, it is. "Punitive mechanics should only apply to other people" is hypocrisy.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#171 - 2015-11-03 22:32:00 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Felsusguy wrote:

No, it's not hypocritical. Biased, maybe, but not hypocritical.


Yes, it is. "Punitive mechanics should only apply to other people" is hypocrisy.

Oddly enough, what you claim to be hypocrisy in the quote is exactly what you have been calling for this entire time.

You want the existing punitive wardec mechanic to stay as is, if not favor you more.
You don't want any change to the system that presents you with risks so that you get your fix on Non-consensual pvp.

You literally just stated that you want non-consensual pvp, and claim that is what Eve is about.
You don't want a fight,you want kills. That is literally what you just said, but in more literal terms.

You state that Eve is all about non-consensual pvp, yet CCP DOES NOT support that claim. Eve is a pvp centric game, as per CCP, and no where in their remarks have they ever stated or even implied that Eve is about non-consensual pvp.

I have suggested a mechanic that is non-biased towards either entity. You do not want to see such a change because it isn't strongly in your favor, yet state that we are hypocrites.

You stated that you will not go into null until CCP forces prey into null.
You claim that they have just as much opportunity Ina war dec, yet continually refer to them as prey, which goes to show that you have chosen targets with the wardec system specifically because they are lambs to your slaughter.
His emphasizes my point that you do not want a fight, and do not want a system that would leave you at risk of a fight.

If CCP made changes that forced all the "prey" out of HS, you would then be her on the forums that CCP had destroyed merc life, ruined wardecs, and removed non-consensual pvp from the game.

You're never going to be happy as long as there is any risks imposed on you, to which you wouldn't be able to dock up in response.

The only change you want made is for CCP to force your prey out of dock so that you can kill them, yet refuse any suggestion that the same should then apply to the aggressor.

THAT, by definition, is hypocritical, and as biased towards your intent as possible.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#172 - 2015-11-03 22:40:49 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

Oddly enough, what you claim to be hypocrisy in the quote is exactly what you have been calling for this entire time.


Wrong.

The wardec mechanic is right now about as fair as it's ever been. Neither side has any real mechanic advantage over the other, barring the ally mechanic.

You want to add punitive mechanics against the side you don't like, to make up for the other side being terrible at the game. You want to subsidize losing.


Quote:

You state that Eve is all about non-consensual pvp, yet CCP DOES NOT support that claim.


They have done so repeatedly. But you've already proven that none of you can accept the literal word of a developer if it goes against your feels, so your opinion on the matter is beyond worthless anyway.

Quote:

I have suggested a mechanic that is non-biased towards either entity.


You lie. You suggested that one side and one side only should have their entire playstyle tethered to babysitting a structure.

When you suggest that missions cannot be run without owning an entosis bullseye, then you're being fair. But your intent is not to be fair, and it never was.

Quote:

You claim that they have just as much opportunity Ina war dec, yet continually refer to them as prey, which goes to show that you have chosen targets with the wardec system specifically because they are lambs to your slaughter.


Those two things are perfectly consistent.

They are prey. They are prey because they choose to be prey, they choose to never fight back properly or play the game at their keyboards. Those wrong choices should have consequences, and I like to be what comes around in that respect.

But unlike real life, in a videogame you can make the very easy choice to stop being prey.

Quote:

If CCP made changes that forced all the "prey" out of HS, you would then be her on the forums that CCP had destroyed merc life, ruined wardecs, and removed non-consensual pvp from the game.


And of course your usual strawman.

If CCP deleted highsec tomorrow, I'd open a bottle of champagne.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#173 - 2015-11-03 23:03:57 UTC
I have removed a ton of off-topic personal attacks.

Quote:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.

27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.

ISD Decoy

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#174 - 2015-11-03 23:17:31 UTC
What is really funny about that particular fabrication from Karrous is that in an earlier post he claimed awoxing didn't really happen, or it wasn't a problem... Hard to tell with his posting sometimes.

Now he is both claiming to have somehow been stalked and to have walked off with someone's orca.

Classic narcissism. What a useless waste of flesh.

People don't choose to be prey or become victims. They are preyed upon or victimized. But you are right that in EVE they can stop it from happening again... By not playing. Good job there, sport.

No, I don't accept 'research' done by the likes of Fozzie or Rise that griefing isn't a factor. They may not list it on the exit survey using that particular term, but every single person I know that didn't stick with the game left because of the focus on emergent gameplay in development at the expense of all else and the tolerance of toxic predatory playstyles.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#175 - 2015-11-03 23:20:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Mike Voidstar wrote:
What is really funny about that particular fabrication from Karrous is that in an earlier post he claimed awoxing didn't really happen, or it wasn't a problem... Hard to tell with his posting sometimes.


Per usual, you lie.

I claimed that if awoxing was happening for people to complain about, then corps were recruiting. And as such there wasn't any problem.

Now, once again you are off topic making a personal attack and ranting. [edit: Oh, and abuse of CCP employees. You are on a roll.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#176 - 2015-11-04 00:53:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Joe Risalo wrote:
You state that Eve is all about non-consensual pvp, yet CCP DOES NOT support that claim. Eve is a pvp centric game, as per CCP, and no where in their remarks have they ever stated or even implied that Eve is about non-consensual pvp.
Allow me.

"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." ~ CCP Solomon

"Simple fact of the matter is, that you're not suppose to feel safe in New Eden." ~ CCP Falcon

"The only way to grow is to voraciously consume what's around you, and its your choice whether that happens to be New Eden's abundant natural resources, or the other people who're also fighting their way to the top." ~ CCP Falcon

"... you better be prepared to fight for what you've discovered." ~ CCP Falcon

Which leads us to :

In EVE Online, any player may attack any other player if they choose to, no matter where they happen to be. This is because EVE Online is essentially a PvP (Player versus Player) game at its core. (new player FAQ pg 15 sec 5.3)

Furthermore, as we mentioned previously, once you enter New Eden you must consider every action you take as a form of PvP since this is the core game concept. (new player FAQ pg 21 Introduction)

The essential core concept of EVE Online is that it is full time PvP in a sandbox environment. As has been mentioned in previous sections any player can engage another player at any time in any place. In high-sec space there may be consequences if a pilot attacks another without just cause, but they can still make that attack if they wish. (new player FAQ pg 22 opening paragraph)

No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. The safest systems are the ‘rookie systems’ where new players start their journey in EVE. (new player FAQ pg 22 sec 7.2)

Did you notice a theme?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#177 - 2015-11-04 02:59:09 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

Did you notice a theme?


I sure did... All about pvp centrics.

It basically states that any and all forms of pvp are viable.

HOWEVER, it does not state that Eve is all about non-consensual pvp.
That would imply that consensual pvp is unintended, when in fact most pvp combat mechanics were designed, and continue to be designed and/or modified, to entice consensual pvp.

Just because a wardec was created in a non-consensual manner does not mean that CCP shouldn't design the system to entice the defender to make it consensual, while also implementing aspects that require the aggressor to man up to their own wardec, when the defender actually poses a threat.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#178 - 2015-11-04 04:22:12 UTC
Non-consensual PVP is indeed an EVE cornerstone. That's why we have warp scramblers.

It's not ALL about non-consent though, and while eliminating all PVP would be a bad thing, creating conditions where the PVP graduates from mild to full contact from area to area is entirely reasonable. I can envision many fine ways to use wars for something other than griefing... but that's their biggest use and It should be controlled.

In addition, creating actual competitive PvP would be nice.

While we are at it, curbing toxicity like the that spewed by most gankbears would benefit the game greatly. EVE is famous for being a game with some of the largest **** moves in all of gaming history--- from long con scams, being the only game specifically engineered so you can lose twice over in every fight, to Mittani publically exhorting all of goonswarm to harass a guy until he commits suicide in real life at a public CCP function.

Seriously... it's a rough and tumble game, but it could use maybe a little moderation on the more despicable among us.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#179 - 2015-11-04 11:52:47 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You won't get that without forcing the prey to go there first. Predators go where the prey are. And CCP has, over the years, made sure that the prey never have to leave highsec.


You are about as much of a predator as house cat. Your life expectancy against nullbears is negligible.
There's plenty of bears in nullsec. See Deklein - more NPC kills than The Forge over the course of september. It's just chickens like you can only pick on the larva and the prospect of an actual fight on near-even terms is scaring you so much, that you are even afraid of useless wardec allies mechanics which do literally nothing but scary face at you.

And look at how defensive this lad got at the slightest prospect of losing the oversight of mother concord! That's the spirit, lad! Yellow-belly insignia to you!

Your "eve is what I said it is and I don't care when you have CCP Seagull's words contradicting me" position is getting a bit irritating. Maybe you should get a job, so we get less of your chicken attitude here.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#180 - 2015-11-04 12:55:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Mike Voidstar wrote:

Seriously... it's a rough and tumble game, but it could use maybe a little moderation on the more despicable among us.


You mean like this?

Or this?

this?

this?

how about this one?

maybe this one?

Carebears, one and all. And that's just a few I pulled from MB in the past six months or so. There's hundreds more.

Oh wait, no, you meant that it's only the PvP players, the people you don't like who should be "moderated", right hypocrite?

If they actually moderated this game, there would be a whole let less carebears. Heck, you yourself said outright yesterday that you were happy that my life was threatened irl because I awoxed an Orca. That's worse than anything you're accusing people of. This isn't even the pot and the kettle, you're the only one here with soot on you.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.