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NERF The Watchlist.......

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Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#21 - 2015-11-02 09:32:39 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
You know that they log in because they log into the fluid router network of the stargate system. One could argue that watchlists should not work in W-space with that in mind, though. In K-space, as long as the stargates exist the way they are, the watchlistist is, either delayed or as is, neither OP nor illogical.

The Fluid Router system is not tied to Stargates (in fact it can't be); it works equally in Yulai and anywhere else in the universe (the Fluid Routers are based in Yulai IIRC) - the same in WH space, the same on the other side of EVE Gate (if we could get there) and in any other location.

I only recently regained the use of the watchlist (after spending a good while hunting out the people who shouldn't be on it and getting myself down below 250 again) but while I can understand the OP's point I have to disagree with it.
Beyond watching Titans or war targets there are many, more valid, reasons to watch activity without the "target" being entirely aware... and reasons too to keep the "transaction" one-sided. That annoying guy for example, "Yeah, I'll address book you" fobbing them off, "I haven't had the alert yet mate, have you done it? should I put a ticket in for you mate?..."; the guy you're worried about - maybe you don't want to add to their load; your mate who's just started and you want to surprise...
The folk who you haven't seen for ages, if they're away from EVE they can't answer the alert, so have they not answered the alert or have they not been online?

Not to mention that if watchlisted Super pilots are such a combat inhibitor... Why would they turn down your watchlist request? If seeing a bunch of them log in is going to make your FC pull his freight they can make use of their knowledge that you've got them watchlisted to play on that.


The advent of Citadels and docking Supers will mitigate the OP's concern but the "simple" solution's problems won't be repaired - let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2015-11-02 09:48:28 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
You know that they log in because they log into the fluid router network of the stargate system. One could argue that watchlists should not work in W-space with that in mind, though. In K-space, as long as the stargates exist the way they are, the watchlistist is, either delayed or as is, neither OP nor illogical.

And if you had done some research, you would have learned that your thread was redundant.



To be frank, there is no need for an "in game" justification for these.

I shall revisit my opinion/belief on this right as soon as someone gives me a plausible in game reason for a several trillion ton, couple of miles long spaceship simply ceasing to be part of the universe for a while.

Parallel universe entanglement, perhaps?
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#23 - 2015-11-02 09:52:17 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP FoxFour
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Killboard a only report if you or the aggressor are linked to it, report it manually, and/or are delayed. They also don't show anything if you don't do anything. Could I use a killboard to track down your freighter and kill him within a couple sittings? Or wouldn't it be more effective to run a locator, add to watchlist, and then do something else while I wait?


actually, iirc, the new CREST system is automatic. No need to input API keys for killboards (I could be wrong, but i'm fairly sure....)


You would be wrong. ;) Unless the killmail is part of a war, then it cannot be retrieved without an API key automatically.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Madd Adda
#24 - 2015-11-02 10:01:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Madd Adda
Khan Wrenth wrote:

If the watchlist is so inconsequential to you, you won't mind if we get rid of it. If it means so much to you that you'll defend it, that's proof of it's need to be removed.

Quite frankly we need to do more than just remove the watchlist. The intel systems in this game are outdated and need overhauled. I happened to write upon this subject quite thoroughly, see sig for details.


to the contrary, it's useful, but not overpowered. you quoted the reasoning why it isn't overpowered. OP alone admits to using other intel sources, but none of you try to use Watchlists on its own. No locator agents, no third party sites, just the watchlist's own functionality.

so someone defending a mechanic suddenly makes it bad? that's not proof at all.

"just one more nerf" is all i'm hearing now.

Edit: well now... a dev is watching this thread. I'm now curious to their opinion to this matter.

Carebear extraordinaire
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#25 - 2015-11-02 10:01:16 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Killboard a only report if you or the aggressor are linked to it, report it manually, and/or are delayed. They also don't show anything if you don't do anything. Could I use a killboard to track down your freighter and kill him within a couple sittings? Or wouldn't it be more effective to run a locator, add to watchlist, and then do something else while I wait?


actually, iirc, the new CREST system is automatic. No need to input API keys for killboards (I could be wrong, but i'm fairly sure....)


You would be wrong. ;) Unless the killmail is part of a war, then it can be retrieved without an API key automatically.


I'm pretty sure that's what I said, without the 'part of a war' bit.....

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#26 - 2015-11-02 10:32:24 UTC
Of course it should be nerfed, especially the ridiculous out of game automation. I'd prefer watchlisting to require approval but at least get rid of the crest whatsit.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Madd Adda
#27 - 2015-11-02 10:35:22 UTC
Zappity wrote:
l but at least get rid of the crest whatsit.


agreed

Carebear extraordinaire
Luscius Uta
#28 - 2015-11-02 10:44:48 UTC
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
a much too powerful intel gathering tool.




Same goes for local chat and locator agents, are you suggesting that they should be removed too?

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#29 - 2015-11-02 10:58:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Mephiztopheleze
Luscius Uta wrote:
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
a much too powerful intel gathering tool.




Same goes for local chat and locator agents, are you suggesting that they should be removed too?


I'd like to see some changes on Local Chat where it's only 'instant' in 1.0 sec systems and is delayed in ever increasing increments down to 0.0 status where it no longer functions at all, however Sov holding entities should also be able to install ihub upgrades for local chat for those with positive standings towards the sov holder.

I don't use Locator Agents myself, i usually pay someone else to run it for me.

But those are different topics. This topic is about the watchlist mechanic.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2015-11-02 11:26:38 UTC
Madd Adda wrote:
but none of you try to use Watchlists on its own


That is akin to saying old Titans (tracking, AOE doomsday) weren't overpowered because they're just one ship. If you ignore the rest of the fleet that accompanies them, the resources at their disposal, the alliance that backs them up, then yeah it might not look so bad. It's just one ship, right? I mean, how often are you going to see one, they're so expensive, take so long to train....

Oh, right

Nothing here exists in a vacuum. You yourself went on to list precisely why it IS overpowered, because watch lists don't exist in a vacuum, there's an entire internet out there at your disposal, and that internet is inescapable and precisely why these systems need to be reworked.

Watch lists were probably fine back in day when this game was first launched, what, 11 years ago? A lot's changed. Classes of ships have been introduced, dozens of rebalances both for ships and modules, it's time intel got an overhaul. Watch lists are one problem of many that persist in this game. They just happen to be one of the two most visible problems. Rebalance it all at once, not piecemeal.

Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#31 - 2015-11-02 11:35:01 UTC
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Killboard a only report if you or the aggressor are linked to it, report it manually, and/or are delayed. They also don't show anything if you don't do anything. Could I use a killboard to track down your freighter and kill him within a couple sittings? Or wouldn't it be more effective to run a locator, add to watchlist, and then do something else while I wait?


actually, iirc, the new CREST system is automatic. No need to input API keys for killboards (I could be wrong, but i'm fairly sure....)


You would be wrong. ;) Unless the killmail is part of a war, then it can be retrieved without an API key automatically.


I'm pretty sure that's what I said, without the 'part of a war' bit.....


****! I typoed. It was way to early in the day. I meant CANNOT. As in API keys are still required.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2015-11-02 11:36:14 UTC
They're literally only a problem because space coffins are a thing. That is going away, thus by extension, so are the "problems" with a WL.

I mean, what's the counterplay to logging off without it?
Iain Cariaba
#33 - 2015-11-02 11:40:49 UTC
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Madd Adda wrote:
And instant online/offline grants you more intel, how? Without other sources, online/offline status is largely meaningless (even to me). Even with gankers added, they can enter my system at anytime. The watchlist merely makes me paranoid enough not to leave my computer without docking. You cannot tell where the target are and what they are doing/flying, you need to run a locator for that. Even then, they could be in transit to somewhere else. I don't see your logic when you're using a third party site to gain intel, as opposed to merely knowing if someone is online.


Clearly, you've never been involved with large scale, multiple fleet, capital and supercapital brawls.

Simply knowing that your opponent is logging in supercaps is a HUGE piece of intel for a bloc level FC. I really can't stress enough just how powerful that piece of intel is.

I was involved in a carrier/dread operation in Lowsec a while back. We successfully baited our opposition into dropping some expensive stuff on us, which we then countered with our own (well, not MY own, I can't fly anything much bigger than a frigate)

After a solid 10'ish minutes of gud'fighting when we started to hold the upper hand, our FC starts yelling at us all to RUN and GTFO. His watchlist had just gone beserk with our enemies supercaps logging on.

Sure enough, less than a minute later, we had three Nyxs, three Aeons and two Erebus drop onfield (and my watchlist grew by eight).

Now, we had no spai in that alliance, yet we knew INSTANTLY when their biggest, most expensive and shiny toys came out to play.

That's Over-Powered.

Let me see if I got this right. WL warned you when you were about to get your ass stomped, and this is a bad thing?

You seriously want people to be able to log their super fleets on and drop them on you with no warning what-so-ever?

Really?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2015-11-02 11:46:10 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Madd Adda wrote:
And instant online/offline grants you more intel, how? Without other sources, online/offline status is largely meaningless (even to me). Even with gankers added, they can enter my system at anytime. The watchlist merely makes me paranoid enough not to leave my computer without docking. You cannot tell where the target are and what they are doing/flying, you need to run a locator for that. Even then, they could be in transit to somewhere else. I don't see your logic when you're using a third party site to gain intel, as opposed to merely knowing if someone is online.


Clearly, you've never been involved with large scale, multiple fleet, capital and supercapital brawls.

Simply knowing that your opponent is logging in supercaps is a HUGE piece of intel for a bloc level FC. I really can't stress enough just how powerful that piece of intel is.

I was involved in a carrier/dread operation in Lowsec a while back. We successfully baited our opposition into dropping some expensive stuff on us, which we then countered with our own (well, not MY own, I can't fly anything much bigger than a frigate)

After a solid 10'ish minutes of gud'fighting when we started to hold the upper hand, our FC starts yelling at us all to RUN and GTFO. His watchlist had just gone beserk with our enemies supercaps logging on.

Sure enough, less than a minute later, we had three Nyxs, three Aeons and two Erebus drop onfield (and my watchlist grew by eight).

Now, we had no spai in that alliance, yet we knew INSTANTLY when their biggest, most expensive and shiny toys came out to play.

That's Over-Powered.

Let me see if I got this right. WL warned you when you were about to get your ass stomped, and this is a bad thing?

You seriously want people to be able to log their super fleets on and drop them on you with no warning what-so-ever?

Really?



Yes, apparently it's unfair that they have this intel, but somehow completely balanced that these ships can simply not exist right up until jumping off point whereby they have zero opportunity to be scouted, to have eyes upon even if you're in the system.

Even the NSA can't find these until they cyno on field.

WL gives you perhaps 30-90 seconds of warning before the hitherto invisible hammer becomes visible then falls.


Make the hammer stop being invisible, and we can talk.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#35 - 2015-11-02 12:09:15 UTC
Aww no cyber-stalking for me?? But I wanna.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#36 - 2015-11-02 13:29:15 UTC
Can there just be a single 'Common recurring super pilot whiney stuff' thread that can be stickied and collect all this stuff?

Removing supers from the game would remove a lot of negativity, whines, hurt feelings, angst and just boring game play.

Just saying.

TL/DR Sell your super if you don't like the gameplay that is involved with it. This is not rocket science.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2015-11-02 14:06:58 UTC
when CTQ were a highsec wardec corp we sometimes used the watchlist to watch almost an entire alliance using EVE-Who and the character hyperlinks in evemails

i know next to nothing about supers or super hunting gameplay

i don't see removing the watchlist as being detrimental, provided actual friends can still see if each other are online. using a 'friend' tool as an intel tool is pretty weird
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#38 - 2015-11-02 14:08:24 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
using a 'friend' tool as an intel tool is pretty weird


that's pretty much how I see it.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#39 - 2015-11-02 14:19:56 UTC
I think the real question is do you think they would be used more or less if both side didn't know what is logged/logging in to drop a hammer.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2015-11-02 14:24:09 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Frostys Virpio wrote:
I think the real question is do you think they would be used more or less if both side didn't know what is logged/logging in to drop a hammer.



You and I both know the answer is less. The exception to that rule would be people with sufficient supers to literally blot out the sun, but that's not a significant change from today.