These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Science & Industry

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next page
 

moon mining update
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
phalanx warriorll
Death and Taxes Incorporated.
Two Vargurs one Hole
#1 - 2012-01-03 17:58:19 UTC
i've been playing eve for a bit and have noticed that there is ALOT of unused resorces in low sec especially .4 systems. this is due to the fact that you cannot use moon miners in .4 systems. with dust 514 on the brink, i think its about time that the eve universe gets the chance to fully utilize all the availible resources from low/null sec. it will add a greater depth to the sandbox, and will increase combat in low sec systems that have worth while resources that can be gathered.
Miss Doggy
Zahadu
#2 - 2012-01-03 19:43:12 UTC
I agree 100%. There are some great moons fulla resources. Please don't say it's too much bandwidth, because every where you go there are dead POS's taking up tons of bandwidth. Just let us have access to the .4 moons and you'll see a gold rush to low sec unlike anything ever before in eVe
Zakarumit CZ
Zakarum Industries
Forgers United
#3 - 2012-01-03 20:55:57 UTC
The only thing that would happen would be big alliances taking all good moons (again) and everyone other will be forced to harvest atmospheric gases and other crap (as now). Only effect would be drop in prices of stuff on market because of more moongoo coming out. Theres no reason to do that. If you cant afford resources/firepower to get a nice moon now, theres no chance to have it even after allowing to moonmine in 0.4. Period.
phalanx warriorll
Death and Taxes Incorporated.
Two Vargurs one Hole
#4 - 2012-01-03 22:19:48 UTC
i guess i'm just making the point that there are huge amounts of untapped resources in .4 systems that we should be able to get at. if its that big of an issue wiht large alliances being isk grubbing whores ccp can always limit the number of low sec moons null sec allinaces have. or null sec alliances can stay in null sec since they have every thing they need there already.either way it should be addressed and see if a solution can be found.
PlatinumMercSEAL
Center for Advanced Studies
#5 - 2012-01-04 00:22:28 UTC
Nice job Phalanx. You are hitting the nail on head.

Captain PlatiumMercSEAL, Deep-Space Wraiths (Independent Null Sec Mercenary Corporation)
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#6 - 2012-01-04 00:51:00 UTC
phalanx warriorll wrote:
i guess i'm just making the point that there are huge amounts of untapped resources in .4 systems that we should be able to get at. if its that big of an issue wiht large alliances being isk grubbing whores ccp can always limit the number of low sec moons null sec allinaces have. or null sec alliances can stay in null sec since they have every thing they need there already.either way it should be addressed and see if a solution can be found.


How would you try to limit that?

If a Sov holding Alliance is limited X moons, but has the resources to control more, well, that's what Alt alliances/Corps are for. Set it up right and you don't need more than a few people's alts to actually be in that alliance/Corp.

Any mechanical limit on player collusion is doomed to failure, 'cause the Eve players (as a whole) bring more collected IQ point/hours than CCP (not saying CCP be dum, but 50k players with an average IQ of 20 would bring a larger collected IQ pool than CCP's 500 people with an average IQ of 200). So we'll bend and break any mechanic that has any weakness, and any mechanic designed to limit the size of a player group is inherently weak due to the fact that collusion is the inevitable result of a social, competitive game.

tl;dr More Moon Goo = Lower Moon goo Prices, but the ISK will all go to the same groups. (FYI one of the largest Tech holding Alliances didn't hold Sov anywhere last I checked)

Totally a Fake Edit: Looks Like PL took 4 stations in 6 systems last month, but they're not exactly near their Tech holdings.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#7 - 2012-01-04 09:02:32 UTC
Until CCP figures out a way that moon mining is not static (like it is now) and the must-have moon elements slowly wax/wane over the course of a year or migrate around from region to region - things are going to stay stuffed.

Maybe you have to re-survey after existing deposits run dry. Maybe you run out of element X after a month or two (if you harvest it quickly), then you don't get lucky at finding a new source of element X until the RNG decides to put a new deposit where you can find it. Or you have to consider doing ninja-surveying of another corporation's moons, find a sweet deposit that they're not exploiting, and take their space.

(Ease of power projection is a whole 'nother issue. And I'd rather see them add a 2nd ring of null-sec around the existing null over opening up 0.4; which would make the map larger and more spread out and might nullify some of the ease with which you can control half the map. Or allow moon-mining in w-space.)
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#8 - 2012-01-04 11:05:09 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Until CCP figures out a way that moon mining is not static (like it is now) and the must-have moon elements slowly wax/wane over the course of a year or migrate around from region to region - things are going to stay stuffed.

Maybe you have to re-survey after existing deposits run dry. Maybe you run out of element X after a month or two (if you harvest it quickly), then you don't get lucky at finding a new source of element X until the RNG decides to put a new deposit where you can find it. Or you have to consider doing ninja-surveying of another corporation's moons, find a sweet deposit that they're not exploiting, and take their space.

(Ease of power projection is a whole 'nother issue. And I'd rather see them add a 2nd ring of null-sec around the existing null over opening up 0.4; which would make the map larger and more spread out and might nullify some of the ease with which you can control half the map. Or allow moon-mining in w-space.)


God god no. I've only had to survey a few systems, and each one is the work of 2-3 hours. There are some 3300 Nullsec Systems and 800 Lowsec systems (Call it 4000 systems with mineable moons). Given a guess at an average 30 moons per system (I think that's conservative, but whatever).

Scanning Time lower boundry (1 moon - 10min scan/system) = 27.7 Man Days and ~800mil Isk in probes.

Assuming a 2 minute average per moon (warping +10 min at the end of each system, seems like a sane number) = 166.6 Man Days of scanning. and ~24 Billion isk in probes.

Scanning moons sucks. It's boring, dangerous (not everyone can manage to set their POS aggro right), and takes forever.

An alliance should have to do it Once and only Once when they move in. The furniture in their house shoudn't randomly move around while they're using it.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
phalanx warriorll
Death and Taxes Incorporated.
Two Vargurs one Hole
#9 - 2012-01-04 16:43:08 UTC
well one way ccp could make these resources availible could be to make it so that any sov holding alliance cant hold a low sec moon in a .4 or low sec system period. or like was mentioned that the resources last for a limited time( but for low sec only keep the null sec resources static), or to make it really interesteing have a combination of all of the above. i like the year time frame personally. you ahve a year to get what you can outta it based on how much time you spend mining the moons. so you could clear a moon faster then the year time frame. but at the end of a year from the start of mining the resources on the moons get depleted. hell ccp could even tie the .4 system moons into dust 514 where the only way to get the minerals off of them would be to have the minerals mined through the dust 514 game play and then sent through eve online. now that would make for some epic sandbox actions
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#10 - 2012-01-04 19:53:20 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

God god no. I've only had to survey a few systems, and each one is the work of 2-3 hours. There are some 3300 Nullsec Systems and 800 Lowsec systems (Call it 4000 systems with mineable moons). Given a guess at an average 30 moons per system (I think that's conservative, but whatever).

Yes, the current moon surveying system is rather horrid and painful. At a minimum, they would have to change it so that you can plant the probe and get results on everything within a 1AU or 5AU range (skill-based? +3AU per level?). Which would cut the time drastically as you could do a single 10-second scan anywhere within a few AU of the planet and get results for every moon within range. (Similar to how a survey scanner module works.)

Obviously, some null-sec should be better then other null-sec, or there's no reason to fight for a particular area. The design question is whether that attractiveness should be fixed in stone for all time, or whether it should change with heavy usage.
Lauren Hellfury
Super Happy Awesome Fun Times
#11 - 2012-01-04 21:22:14 UTC
Phalanx, just to reiterate what has already been said in this thread.


You see that corp name and alliance name below my character name? We are not a sov holding alliance. In fact it's an alt corp in an alt alliance. You have no idea as to which sov holding alliance my main is in. So if a sov holding alliance cannot moon mine in low-sec guess what happens? That alliance listed under my character name suddenly starts moon mining in low-sec.


The moon-goo would still be taken by a sov holding alliance it would just be through this intermediary. Would people try to mess with it? Probably. Would that stop once they'd been nuked for trying it and word got out? Mostly, it would just be other sov holding alliances trying to take it.


All you would do is add a pointless layer of complexity.

Help rid New Eden of T2 BPOs: ** https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=62797 **The Full Pocket Aggro blog:  http://fullpocketaggro.blogspot.com/ **Now showing: **Margin Trading Scams
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
#12 - 2012-01-04 22:42:49 UTC
Our Eve is a delicate flower. We must leave these beautiful moons unblemished lest we pollute the homeworlds!

Frankly, it's interesting just leaving things as they are for a while. I don't see opening up moons in 0.4 being that useful in itself. It wouldn't add much.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#13 - 2012-01-05 02:50:26 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

God god no. I've only had to survey a few systems, and each one is the work of 2-3 hours. There are some 3300 Nullsec Systems and 800 Lowsec systems (Call it 4000 systems with mineable moons). Given a guess at an average 30 moons per system (I think that's conservative, but whatever).

Yes, the current moon surveying system is rather horrid and painful. At a minimum, they would have to change it so that you can plant the probe and get results on everything within a 1AU or 5AU range (skill-based? +3AU per level?). Which would cut the time drastically as you could do a single 10-second scan anywhere within a few AU of the planet and get results for every moon within range. (Similar to how a survey scanner module works.)

Obviously, some null-sec should be better then other null-sec, or there's no reason to fight for a particular area. The design question is whether that attractiveness should be fixed in stone for all time, or whether it should change with heavy usage.


I see the sense in having moving moon goo, but the biggest concerns I have with it are:

1. A small Alliance who's space suddenly has a pricy moon is going to get Curb stomped. A *LOT*

2. Having to uproot and follow the moons would kill the idea of making a home for your Alliance (to me, nomadic lifestyle = WHs, NPC null, or what have you, not SOV space)

3. No matter how you change moon scanning, moving moons means vast amounts of effectively required extra work. Even if the average were 5min per system, 13 man days of tedium per alliance every month or whatever is a horrible thing to do to alliance leadership and logistics people (you think the grunts are going to be willing/trusted to scan moons?). We live in Null because we like to fight. Static moons let us spend more time and effort fighting and less time doing other stuff. Static moons also give us places to fight over.

Dynamic Moons seem to me to be similar to ideas about Dynamic Sec Level. Cool idea in theory, but would be a horrible pain in practice. (Want to move to a new agent every time the sec level of the system goes from .5 to 1.0? Moving large quantities of stuff around in Null is worse.)

Oh, and my solution to the idea that there's market manipulation on Tech, shoot the people who are doing it. Hisec is certainly wealthy and populous enough.

(Disclaimer: as far as I know, my alliance doesn't rely on Tech for income, so shooting Tech holders might benefit my alliance)

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
phalanx warriorll
Death and Taxes Incorporated.
Two Vargurs one Hole
#14 - 2012-01-06 07:20:15 UTC
i'm still think that ccp should allow the use of the moons in .4 low sec throught dust514 when if comes out but have it be under certin conditions like complete control of a planet. that ay you havet o fight for it kinda like in null sec
Taedrin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-01-06 16:23:44 UTC
Opening up .4 systems has several knock-on effects, especially with reactions in general.

Right now the ideal solar system to run reactions in has the following qualities:

1) Is relatively close to Jita
2) Borders a high-sec system
3) Is a .3 sec status system
4) Has a lot of moons

Most border systems are .4 sec status, meaning that finding an ideal system for running reactions in is actually kind of difficult. Allowing reactions and moon mining to occur in .4 systems would significantly reduce the barrier of entry to T2 reactions and production.

You could consider this either a good thing or a bad thing. I do wonder, however, if opening up .4 systems for mining would give enough tech moons to drop the price on tech.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#16 - 2012-01-06 23:27:34 UTC
phalanx warriorll wrote:
i'm still think that ccp should allow the use of the moons in .4 low sec throught dust514 when if comes out but have it be under certin conditions like complete control of a planet. that ay you havet o fight for it kinda like in null sec


What problem do you have that opening .4 to mining would fix?

High Prices? Those might go down a bit, but I don't think the prices of T2 goods are all that high.

Income not going to you? Yeah, the same people who own moons now will own the new ones.

Some idea that because the moons are coded with goo they should be mineable? Two words. Jove Space.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Driven
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-01-07 00:52:04 UTC
I used to do a lot of moon mining.

I learned one thing that I found more important to me than anything else: The profit I made was much more due to the reacting than to the mining. In fact, often the costs of the raw moon goo to be used for secondary and then advanced was impacting my bottom line by maybe 10%. Once I figured out how much time I was wasting surveying and hauling and combining into one reacting system, I stopped caring if the moons even had resources. I would just buy freighters full of raw goo, react it in one system, and then haul back to jita and sell for my huge profits - or make t2 components.

I made over a trillion isk in a few years from moon goo, and I never had any moons that anything better than mediocre crap. The real money is in the reacting.
phalanx warriorll
Death and Taxes Incorporated.
Two Vargurs one Hole
#18 - 2012-01-07 04:56:22 UTC
my point has nothing to do with making t2 stuff, or reactions. yes they are a part of the whole moon mining thing. yes you cna make lots of iskies doing that stuff. my point is why have an area with tech moons in it and then not be able to use them at all. its asnine. thats my whole point. not this **** where the major alliances are going to take it over. it might happen ccp should devise a way to rectify that then. all this pissing and moaning about this and that. this thread is not for that. its about unexploited resources that we are denied. and i for one would like to see that fixed so that we have full access to the resources in low and null sec for everyone. and i would like to hear some ideas about how that might be changed so that the resources can be used. not more bs about how it will fail or bashing remarks. you want to make redundant remarks and bash other ppl's ideaas take your ass to another post. keep your bs off mine
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#19 - 2012-01-07 05:19:19 UTC
phalanx warriorll wrote:
my point has nothing to do with making t2 stuff, or reactions. yes they are a part of the whole moon mining thing. yes you cna make lots of iskies doing that stuff. my point is why have an area with tech moons in it and then not be able to use them at all. its asnine. thats my whole point. not this **** where the major alliances are going to take it over. it might happen ccp should devise a way to rectify that then. all this pissing and moaning about this and that. this thread is not for that. its about unexploited resources that we are denied. and i for one would like to see that fixed so that we have full access to the resources in low and null sec for everyone. and i would like to hear some ideas about how that might be changed so that the resources can be used. not more bs about how it will fail or bashing remarks. you want to make redundant remarks and bash other ppl's ideaas take your ass to another post. keep your bs off mine


They aren't tech moons. They are no different from the moons in hisec with scannable materials. They are scanning practice targets and newbie bait.

Moon goo doesn't do anything besides getting reacted. Reaction products don't do anything besides being built into components. Components don't do anything but become T2 products. Those actually do stuff.

The resources in low and nullsec are available to everyone. There is nothing stopping you from taking the space and resources (or even just the resources) of the nullsec alliances you so malign. Remember, for most of last year PL was 2 things: one of the biggest Tech holding groups in the game, and not a Sov holding alliance.

The fact that you can't get enough people together to take a moon is:
a) Not CCP's problem
b) A Game Feature
c) Hilarious because of the QQ it inspires
d) All of the above

I weren't too good at dem SATs, you give it a shot.

You seem to want 2 things.
1. To open up a segment of heretofore unavailable resources to the players of the game.
2. To deny a subset of those players access to those resources via GM fiat.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-01-07 06:26:00 UTC
phalanx warriorll wrote:
my point has nothing to do with making t2 stuff, or reactions. yes they are a part of the whole moon mining thing. yes you cna make lots of iskies doing that stuff. my point is why have an area with tech moons in it and then not be able to use them at all. its asnine. thats my whole point. not this **** where the major alliances are going to take it over. it might happen ccp should devise a way to rectify that then. all this pissing and moaning about this and that. this thread is not for that. its about unexploited resources that we are denied. and i for one would like to see that fixed so that we have full access to the resources in low and null sec for everyone. and i would like to hear some ideas about how that might be changed so that the resources can be used. not more bs about how it will fail or bashing remarks. you want to make redundant remarks and bash other ppl's ideaas take your ass to another post. keep your bs off mine


It doesn't matter where a Tech moon is. It isn't tied to an area or SOV holding. Lowsec (0.3-0.1) has numerous Technetium moons. Go conquer them. No sov. You just have to shoot the POS down that is currently sitting there. Just watch out for random Titan/Supercarrier blobs falling on your head with "PANDEMIC LEGION" or "GOONSWARM" written on them... Well, in the case of Goons you are more likely to see a pile of Welp-Hurricanes dropped on your head but it will be so large pile that it will blot out the sun and the result will be very much the same.

Holding space has nothing to do with moon mining. Moon is mined by whoever has a POS there. One of the largest Technetium moon holder (Pandemic Legion) holds no 0.0 sov - they still have POSes on a lot of moons around New Eden. They simply took them and are willing to take on anyone who would challenge the fact that those POSes are on those moons.

If 0.4 moons were opened for mining, large alliances would rapidly scan every single one of them and then plant a POS on every single Technetium, Neodymium and probably Dysprosium moon. Any other moons worth mining would then be squatted by mid-sized alliances. If they find one that already has a POS on it belonging to some small corp, it would get vaporized and replaced.

So effectively what you propose would cause a furry of activity for a few weeks and after that the market would see small increase in supply of some high end moon goos and perhaps a small price dip due to that (probably not on Technetium as the price is already a result of a cartel). I humbly submit that this would not change anything. I fully agree that current moon mineral distribution is less than ideal but CCP is afraid of just kicking down this current system because it is the only thing that truly drives conflict in 0.0 (as holding 0.0 space is not very profitable - it is useful for building supercaps as CSAAs require sov to anchor, but beyond that the benefits are not that impressive)
123Next page