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Discussion - Rorqual
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Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#1 - 2015-10-30 15:29:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarisen Gream
***Major Edits***

I was reading the review of the o7 show on evenews24.com and saw this

""2. What are your plans concerning the Rorqual?
The Rorqual is like Off-Grid Links, we will conquered them, but are not ready to talk about plans. We have some old plans, some new plans, and changes may be implemented in Spring 2016 when the other Capital changes are implemented, before we change the Rorqual, it needs to meet 3 requirements
* It needs to do powerful things on the field
* Effectively support other miners
* Defensive abilities that can be good enough to survive
The Rorqual needs love, and has been neglected for a while, but we are working on changes.""

(I didn't change the grammar)

***Massive edit of content thought and layout***

Having removed the old formate and such - many of the quotes below will related to the former version.

What needs/could happen to meet each requirements.

Powerful on grid function
1: Boost
2: Tractor Beam (ship, asteroid, containers)
3: Anti-pirate combat control.
4: Mining

Support of Miners
1: Provides boost
2: provides ore storage
3: provides combat support
4: provides on grid safety.

Defensive properties
1: Provide defense vs NPCs
2: Provide on grid defense boost to mining/industrial ships
3: Be able to combat solo and small gang PVP forces. To endure medium sized fleets. And support in large scale fleets.

My vision of a Rorqual which can achieve these goals would be?
1: Providing Max Boost just from the Mining foremen links
2: Has the ability to use fighters (anti-sub capital). This allows more control and limits then drones.
3: Provides grid information on yields of asteroids
4: Has some sort of AOE protection field (I would prefer a tethering system over a force field) when the industrial core is online
5: Reduced cycle time for industrial core - 60-120 seconds.
6: Increased defense and/or combat ability while industrial core is online.
7: Automated functions for compression (would love to see mineral refining instead)
8: Active functions when not in combat - Mining. Targeted amplifier (increase laser function on target asteroid. Or pulls the ore to the Rorqual vs barge/exhumer)


How to make the industrial core work better for the Rorqual?

Let's say after the capital ship change the Rorqual has these defense stats added
25% resist to ewar
+10 warp core strength.

The industrial cores focus would become more combat/defensive vs its current form.
Durning the 1-2 minute cycle the Rorqual is unable to move
But gains additional resist to ewar - say caps out at 75%
And additional warp core strength of say 20.
(Those numbers are at max industrial core skill)

Now we introduce "residue effects"
Once the Rorqual pilot complete the core's cycle he maintains the increase to warp core strength resist and with the sudden return of massive power to the engines, only needs say 10% velocity to warp. The residue would last up to say 30 seconds.

How this would function in a combat event -
A fight has started with say a medium sized gang - The Mining fleet is holding their own for now and awaiting reinforcements. Hostile players bat phone some friends and the Rorqual/mining fleet learn that their numbers and incoming assistance are not enough to hold the field, so they make a call to extract. The miners (hopefully now in combat ships provide cover or run) while the Rorqual turns the core off. Now the Rorqual player knows that when he comes out of industrial mode that he won't have his alignment to their safe location, but thankfully a fleet (Corp) member has made a number of emergency BMs placed around the ore anomaly that will give him time to realign and warp from one of them to a safer place.

The hostile force has to decide how they are going to engage this fight when it comes to locking down the warp drives. Do they focus on the mining and industrial ships or focus all their scrams/distruptors on the Rorqual.
If the hostile gang can supply up wards of 30 points in warp jamming they would focus on the Rorqual if they could only apply say 15 they could chance it, hoping the rorqual player has bad skills.

***Please provide feed back on this. I tried to include feed back from the post below.***

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2015-10-30 18:41:20 UTC
Amarisen Gream wrote:
3: Replace the drone bay with a Fighter Squadron bay (limit to like 5 squads)

Cool ideas but with CCP's move to split carriers I think this one is more than invalidated. I would have been all for it, were carriers to retain their ability to run fighters and logistics together.


The damage reduction field makes a nice alternative to logistics but it might be cool if there was a module the Rorqual could fit into its high slots to boost the effect further, so it could be weak if the industrial core was used without any of those. That makes the Rorqual's use similar to a Force Auxiliary but without any actual repair capacity. It'll then be popular for use in capital fights in tandem with force auxiliaries unless something is done to limit its use to mining fleets. Perhaps something like a damage reduction to all ORE faction ships in the radius. If you want combat ships to protect it and receive the bonus, use Procurers.

The Rorqual could also receive its own damage reduction bonus instead of boosts to onboard repair modules. This way it would still have an advantage to onboard repair should you choose to use them, but alternatively could just slide by on the generous buffer tank. That'll be especially nice considering how weak the Rorqual's capacitor is compared to a carrier.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#3 - 2015-10-30 19:36:01 UTC
Yeah! I was aiming to hit something along the lines for what CCP is doing with other other capitals without stepping on to many toes.

The reason for the fighters (could even be a special ORE fighter) is that it provides a combat defense. Something that isn't great for say a gang, but could defend off a single/small gang as well as pirate NPCS.

The AOE damage reduction was something I wanted limited to just Industrial ships - So like pretty much all ORE ships, and the faction industrials including Freighters/JFs.

I wanted to move way from the Logi rep bonuses as that will be taken up by the new Force Auxiliaries - Having an Orca or other industrial/barges there with Logi drones could handle most of the repairing tell a combat fleet could come in and take care of the hostiles.

Example of how the AOE Damage reduction would work.
Your corp is having a mining operation in your Null sec space - For max yield players start off mining in hulks and dropping the ore into the Rorqual for boost. Belt rats jump in - no need to really worry, Rorqual sends out combat fighters to assist the Barge pilots' drones.
Intel reports some hostile players like 5-10 jumps way. They have been engaging with friendlies in that area, so you players swap their corp Hulks out with Corp Skiffs (smaller yield but higher tank), and continue mining. Hostile players start making their way toward your system, fleet sets up to do combat as needed, members ether A) head into reship or B) stay mining in skiffs.
Hostiles come into system and land on grid - 5-6 players flying cruisers and smaller ships. They attempt to knock one of the barges out of the AOE safety to burn it.

Example two - pretty much the same set up, but instead Hostile is a hot dropper, and drops in a number of BLOPs and a capital or two. The mining fleet on its own has no real means to push these hostiles away like they would a smaller group, and have to withstand the attack. As they have a damage reduction, they are able to buffer tank for a while but will lose numbers (maybe even the Rorqual) if the hostiles attack and hit hard before a counter combat force can be deployed to fight off the invaders.

---I'm a big fan of players spending their time in space. One of the things I hate most is the dock up game, and with the above examples and ideas to better the Rorqual, it gives industrial players a chance to compete in the PVP side of the game. Balance is a key factor, and hopefully CCP can get it right the first time. Yet, if not - they can patch it.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#4 - 2015-10-30 20:18:40 UTC
Maybe give it a mobile production facility, so you can queue up jobs from it. A grid wide scanner that it can share with the fleet. They'll never give it fighters, but asking for more than 5 drones isn't out of the question. Not sure what else.
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#5 - 2015-10-31 03:25:25 UTC
Valacus wrote:
Maybe give it a mobile production facility, so you can queue up jobs from it. A grid wide scanner that it can share with the fleet. They'll never give it fighters, but asking for more than 5 drones isn't out of the question. Not sure what else.


Though, the mobile production facility is a cool idea! The fact that the ship is mobile and can dock, would make coding and balancing that part crazy.

-Drones or Specialty Fighters, I'm sure it could be balanced ether way.

-Grid wide scanner with fleet sharing is a must.


***
Any other ideas on this great ship! Need to do our best for coming up with things that meet those three requirements.

(though, I am sad that CCP hasn't/won't share what they currently have in plan, they shared pretty much everything else)

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#6 - 2015-10-31 04:03:25 UTC
Step 1 to solving the Rorqual.
Find it an active role on grid. Boosting other miners is not an active role, it should be engaged in doing something for itself first, and not simply a 'press button once and share results then repeat in 5 minutes' but a real constant activity.
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#7 - 2015-10-31 07:04:42 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Step 1 to solving the Rorqual.
Find it an active role on grid. Boosting other miners is not an active role, it should be engaged in doing something for itself first, and not simply a 'press button once and share results then repeat in 5 minutes' but a real constant activity.


What kind of active role would you suggest?

We already no, that a player who has to "stand guard" gets bored. Mining defense guy/Entosis guards.

If possible things I would want to see
- Astroid Tractor beam (would really shine if belts where bigger)
- Capital mining laser
- …

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-10-31 09:03:42 UTC
Capital Neut bonus. Battle Rorqual is a go. Errr...... More of a Go than Ever*?

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2015-10-31 10:53:50 UTC
Curent skills layout:

Capital Industrial Ships bonuses (per skill level):

5% reduction in fuel consumption for Industrial Core
10% bonus to Mining Foreman Links effectiveness when using Industrial Core
50% bonus to Capital Remote Shield Booster range
20% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

Role Bonus:

900% bonus to Survey Scanner range
200% bonus to Cargo Scanners range
• Can fit Industrial Core
• Can fit Clone Vat Bay
• Can use 3 Warfare Link modules simultaneously
90% reduction to effective distance traveled for jump fatigue
5xPenalty to Entosis LInk Cycle time
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

Hull bonunses, 50% of CRSB shoul dbe removed since new logi carriers are coming.
Industrial Core is next thing to find new role for.
I hope Rorq got a drone bay buff and be able to accoodate higher number of them depending the squadron size they decided it's ok to have Rorq has.

Those crappy Survey and Cargo Scanner bonuses should be gone as well.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5833196#post5833196 - here are some suggestions i've put all together so if you have time to look all those through...

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#10 - 2015-10-31 11:59:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Swiftstrike1
Unique "superweapon" for the Rorqual to promote active on-grid role ---> Molten Mineral Transducer

A "superweapon" that would be fired at an asteroid in order to melt it and induce a phase change in the minerals within. Ore mined from target asteroid would have a 100% bonus to mineral content for X minutes, at which point it would have cooled down enough to solidify and revert back to its normal phase of matter. This could be accompanied with a nice new molten asteroid model and funky transition between the two :)

EDIT: it wouldn't actually mine anything, just change the properties of the ore in that roid for a limited time. You'd still need mining barges to capitalise and it would be entirely pointless without subcap mining support.

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.
Mutiny Within
Intergalactic Restored Gravitational Aided Yields
#11 - 2015-10-31 16:35:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutiny Within
The boosts provide plenty of function already, no need to change those, except if these changes were to go live then their full boosts they need to be on grid. Having the Rorq at the POS, it should be able to still provide boosts, but nothing more than an say an Orca. I suggest doing this in case someone is too risk adverse, or there is too much risk (hostile fleets about) at that time to provide full on grid boost support.

My suggestion is one or combination of these ideas:

  • Perhaps give the Rorq a warp strength bonus similar to the proposed super capitals change via CCP (yes the rorq is not a super capital) but the fact that a lone interceptor can lock down a Rorq makes it unacceptably risky to use it at a belt.

    • Something like +10-20. That way it would take a small fleet to lock it down, or a interdictor. And if the bad guys bring a interdictor, well that takes some forethought, not just taking a small **** gang of lolceptors and warping around and catching a Rorq that is now required to be on belt to provide its full boost.

  • In line with the previous suggestion, to provide full boosts the industrial core has to be active to get the most benefit; shorten this cycle down to 1 minute similar to bastion, with the according resource shrink as well so it still takes same amount of heavy water. This shortens the risk period of not being unable to warp, to something a fleet can still easily catch, but not something where even a dread could warp from a gate to belt before the Rorq manages to warp off. (not that this happens per say, just highlighting how absurd 5 minutes would be if forced on belt)

  • Finally since compression is handled far more efficiently by a module at the POS and completely obsoletes the Rorq in this role, some sort of 'active' ability should be added. Perhaps a capital mining lasor, or what another poster said makes one targeted rock get mined some percentage faster. Nothing absurd so it will not literally double a mining fleets output
    • but perhaps something like making the rock a quality rock, so say 5% or 10% bonus.
    Ceawlin Cobon-Han
    Garoun Investment Bank
    Gallente Federation
    #12 - 2015-10-31 20:55:09 UTC
    Leave it as it is, with the addition of immunity to all forms of ewar. When the enemy jumps in and engages the rorq can warp to safety, unless the attackers have serious DPS. Stops the ship being helpless in the face of aggression. Easy to implement, as super carriers have alrady this immunity.
    Rowells
    Blackwater USA Inc.
    Pandemic Horde
    #13 - 2015-11-01 00:40:23 UTC
    Remove industrial core. Work up from there. Biggest issue is solved.
    Lotala
    OpSec.
    Wrong Hole.
    #14 - 2015-11-01 00:54:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Lotala
    How the ability to Jump the ore and just the ore out to either another roqual or a pos/citadel/mining structure with the right module?


    edit: For the purposes of balance, you need it to have a mimmium range from nearby structures, combat timer, and possibly anchoring it place for a short period of time.
    Rowells
    Blackwater USA Inc.
    Pandemic Horde
    #15 - 2015-11-01 01:57:22 UTC
    Ceawlin Cobon-Han wrote:
    Leave it as it is, with the addition of immunity to all forms of ewar. When the enemy jumps in and engages the rorq can warp to safety, unless the attackers have serious DPS. Stops the ship being helpless in the face of aggression. Easy to implement, as super carriers have alrady this immunity.

    Immunity on any ship is going the way of the dodo-saurus rex.
    Bla5to Frigate
    iHaul Industries
    #16 - 2015-11-07 22:01:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Bla5to Frigate
    I think that the Rorqual should be focused on primarily two things. Boosts and Defensive capabilities for the fleet on grid. It should be able to mine as well, just not to an extent of the exhumers.

    I like the idea of a capital size mining laser. Not near as powerful as a doomsday type weapon and able to mine an entire asteroid per cycle (thats just crazy), and only useable on certain asteroids. It should have a long cycle, mine at a volumeslightly higher than the barges but less than the exhumers. This just keeps the pilot busy clicking on different things while he constantly spams his dscan in anticipation for him to be the BOSS that his ship allows him to be. Because when a hostile shows up on grid, thats when he really shines.


    As far as major defensive needs, I feel like the Force Field module is the most suitable. With a module fit the Rorqual is able to activate a force field around itself that its fleet is capable of entering but the enemy fleet is not. It would need to be large enough that if the ships inside want to warp out, and get into attacking ships there is enough room for them to do so (but that abandons the rorqual). This force field module will require a new skill that will improve three areas per skill level. I'm no statistics guy, but I'm thinking it will improve duration, hitpoints and area that the force field encompasses. This should be capable of being overheated for higher numbers but damages the module so it won't work as effectively without sufficient repairs. Once activated, this will allow a good amount of time for reinforcements to arrive and rescue the operation. Once the duration/hitpoints expire due to a large fleet, poor skill threshold, or any other reasons, the Rorqual looses its force field mode and is now into armor. The FF drops and the entire fleet is now vulnerable to attack.

    In addition I feel that there should be some sort of "bowhead" type fleet hanger in the Rorqual to allow for at least a couple of fitted ships for defense. Say there is a small roaming fleet of hostiles in the area, they show up on grid and the Rorqual immediately goes into Force Field mode. The miners in the system all high tail it to the Rorqual, get within its force fields and a few of them (depending on available fitted ships) jump ship into the fleet bay of the Rorqual and hop into some ships with fighting ability while the rest of the fleet wapr off to return in their ships. Near instant small defensive fleet capabilities built right in. (But only if on grid!) In addition, once in Force Field mode the Rorqual also has a boost in bandwith that allows it to pilot up to xxx amount of drones assigned to it by the other fleet members. (I'm no guru, so find the right numbers....) The Rorqual will have a limited drone bay but a much higher bandwith available for this defensive measure.



    I'm thinking of a scenario that would go kind of like so. The fleet is busy mining away just flying through an entire asteroid field making quick work of the asteroids with the boosters of the Rorqual. Intel comes in that there are hostiles in route. Everyone has some time to get within the force field distance of the Rorqual once the ship goes into force field mode. The hostile fleet shows up in dscan and the friendly fleet all assign their drones to the Rorqual pilot. The Rorqual then activates his Force Field module just as the fleet lands on grid. The friendly fleet then activates the fleet bay and hops into a couple of assembled battleships to help fend off the attack while several others warp off to return with their own battleships. Friendly enforcements are called in for help. The combination of the couple of battleships plus the drone control capabilities of the Rorqual would fend off an attack of a small roaming fleet. If it is a fleet of more ships than can be handled by this scenario, once the battleships and drones have been destroyed, either the enemy fleet actively attacks the Rorquals force field (which is well trained and has tons of hitpoints/duration timer/etc...) or they get out of the system to avoid the friendly fleet that may or may not be on the way.

    I feel like this can be improved upon but I feel that this alone can be a decent defensive platform for the fleet. People good at the numbers things can chip in and make some recommendations as well.
    Maldiro Selkurk
    Radiation Sickness
    #17 - 2015-11-09 09:04:55 UTC
    Hate the concept of 'residual effects", once the core cycle is done all benefits and liabilities should come to an immediate halt.

    Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
    Amarisen Gream
    The.Kin.of.Jupiter
    #18 - 2015-11-09 13:55:07 UTC
    Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
    Hate the concept of 'residual effects", once the core cycle is done all benefits and liabilities should come to an immediate halt.


    The residue effects, was an after thought.
    Generally speaking after you have something running for awhile, you still have a residual effect of like heat or other effects still happing.

    I'm all for something that is better - but if not, improvements on this part of my idea would be awesome. Would be something nice for other "siege" like modules as well.

    "The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

    #NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs
    Rek Seven
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #19 - 2015-11-09 14:09:23 UTC
    Add capital strip/ice/gas miners/harvesters + ore/gas/ice mining squadrons + bonus to jump range per level

    The wishlist is pretty much complete...
    Feledain
    Elmsfeuer
    #20 - 2015-11-09 18:24:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Feledain
    Just my random thougths on this

    Thether for mining ships in fleet while core is aktive, huge range. Freighters too.

    Warp helper module. +warpspeed, faster align, (nullified?). Single target. Basically shoots ships into warp. Long cycle. Can´t safe the whole fleet.
    5au/s freighter anyone?

    Ore extractor, mines the mining ships.

    NO roid interaction whatsoever. The role is support not yield, thats what the exhumers are for. Otherwise we will see lone rorquals afk mining and this is just stupid. Ok it would make for hilarious killmails.
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