EVE General Discussion

man up NOOB or go play WoW

Precisely my thoughts: even people- and I use the term loosely- who hate them can't stop giving them money.

You're right it is a poor taste joke, one that came about because some people who play Eve consider some of the shenanigans that happen ingame to be the equivalent of molesting children in the real world; they're the people who are truly worrying.

This thread is rather interesting. Essentially, its 6 pages of Ad Hominem.

The OP proposes a rather simple question. Imagining a Management meeting at CCP, the OP wonders if CCP actually values customers, if CCP actually values making money as any business would or should, and if CCP does value customers and making money did they actually intend to design a game that victimized the customer and turns them away??? In short: Did CCP intend to design a game that is UNMARKETABLE?

The OP concludes his post by pointing out one of the many irornies of this UNMARKETABLE game. The Game considers "Scamming" players a legitimate in game activity, however, if the player should dislike being Scammed, as the OP appears to do, then such a player is prevented from voicing his opinion by closing any and all threads which express such a dislike.

If Scamming is a legitimate in game activity, does it necessarily follow that the Players Likes being Scammed???
If Scamming is a LEGITIMATE in game activity, why are players that dislike it told to leave???


The thread immediatley deteriorates into Ad Hominem. The OP is attacked, repeatedly, for 6 pages so far, and told, "this isn't the game for you", "Can I have your stuff?", "Harden Up or Get Out", and the rest of the stock jokes and expressions that have been built up on the forums over the years.

As for me I don't think that CCP intended to make the game the way it is. And I also don't think that CCP management is "competent management." EVE Online is more like a controlled disaster. And contrary to the posts in this thread which attempt to get you to believe the opposite, the decline in EVE's numbers is due to "Elite Dangerous" and "Star Citizen", which means, that NONE of the people that played this game played it because they could "Be the Villian" but because it was the only space/sci-fi mmo in existence. And those people tolerate the "scamming" and "ganking" because they couldn't get their "Space/Flight Fix" anywhere else.

Eve is/was an interesting social experiment, well worth the money paid to observe it.

Currently it seems to approach the phase of ecosystem collapse because of negative environment changes and overpredation. CCP has already started to make all sorts of funny spastic movements that are very amusing to watch.

Indeed. It showcases the corner that CCP took years to paint themselves into.

I love stupid people like you. CCPS Numbers have been falling steadily for two years on ACTUAL SUBSCRIBED Accounts. The numbers they release INCLUDE trial accounts, 80% of which DO NOT SUBSCRIBE.

You god damn moron.

This was actually locked and then graciously unlocked to let people carry on chatting. Bearing in mind the OP might for all we know have started the discussion as a bit of bait - but so what? ESA certainly is trying, and SFH prolly too - but it's not as though the forum regulars have to be baited by such obvious stuff, unless they really want to. It's still produced some longer and more interesting replies - and it's probably a good read for newer people intrigued by the topic. It also looks like people expanding and elaborating on the themes organically and sidestepping obvious bait, which is interesting in terms of more mature discussions. Or like a group thought experiment.

Replying with 'GBTWoW' 'Can I haz ur stuff' etc is part of GD tradition as well as a joke, but it's getting a bit tired. If it's delivered in a funny way and the OP takes it as such, fair play - but they don't seem to anymore - and tbh watching the same 10-20 people savage anyone who dares open their mouth on GD is getting a bit annoying. Especially when it is occasionally lobbed at genuinely new players who are really offended by it, but could be pursuaded into a different mindset if the forum vets could be bothered. It actually looks like brainwashing people into being abusive trolls. This isn't how people interract on ingame corp/alliance forums towards newer players - even when they do throw a hilarious wobbly - so it's a massive disservice to the game to paint the playerbase as so intolerant.

I mean fair play for sticking with a game for a long time, but squatting in specific forums and acting like an elite cigar smoking cabal of self appointed EvE protector watchdogs who need to be grovelled at by new players looks... odd. Especially in a game designed to be unusual that might attract free-thinkers. In a way a topic like this assists forum vets come up with responses to try sell this loss theme to new players - rather than bludgeon them with it and call them failures. This rep EvE players are getting as arseholes on wider gaming sites really does look to be coming from EvE-O forum warriors to me - and the split between here and reddit in terms of tolerance of new players is startlingly obvious once you start monitoring both.



This ties into my earlier remarks about getting more women in (not to derail into that topic) but the thought popped up and I cracked it out without thinking through the link. I'm noticing juvenile behaviour on reddit that looks to be a kind of male teenage frat hazing thing - and it's causing obvious problems with people with personal problems/depression that might make their reaction to losses/trolling more intense. I know this is a really sexist observation, and if it's scrubbed fair enough. But I get the impression the online ideal of masculinity in western society might be - not only to be emotionally reserved/repressed/stoic - but to attack/shame other people who show theirs and then systematically harass them. That Ero incident really does seem to reflect this most clearly. That's not so much griefing in the sense of normal MMOs, or hazing. It is ritualistic public shaming. Which infringes upon player immersion and narratives in a way that isn't helpful, because it's culling players out during the lows - before they even get to the emotional high points involved in the game. Some of the social problems rippling about in the EvE community might be linked to that - and to people leveraging it for a more intense reaction, purely for spite. There's a major difference between an honour and a shame society and it seems like there has been a shift from one to the other in recent years.

People throw out the 'crazy, emo *****' remark at me frequently online and I'm generally amused by it (partly because it's such a predictable putdown). But IRL some of us are emotional anchors for men, because we've been taught to experience the emotion, talk to someone else if need be, put it in context, then move on - rather than repress it and build up a bigger problem. The guys here who are a bit more emotionally mature seem to be older - not always the case - so it's hard to define whether it is an attitude thing or age/culture thing. This gender balance issue ingame might be making this community problem more stark - plus the imposition of a system of shaming to impose a (juvenile) idealised masculine response. And the types of people likely to post on the forums seems to be shifting about demographically, which might be making things worse.

BTW, Cody gobbed off either at me or in front of me at someone else ingame at some point (can't remember when, because I have a couple of years gap on my chatlogs due to hard drive failures) so he/she earned that clawing. *ticks off mental list*

The 'ad hominen' argument as a logical fallacy has been countered by some who claim establishing personal motivations is relevant to judging the reasoning of the person making a point. Challenging a posters identity rather than considering their argument is probably the purest form of ad hominem, but serves no purpose other than to establish they're alt posting, and it's a nifty way to censor people into silence.

The riff-raff have been around for a while ;) They just don't post on EvE-O anymore. Possibly because of the sheer number of forum vets trying to collectively control how the conversation flows to preserve 'core EvE concepts'. Funny thing. Go through each subforum and check the top posters by hand - and varying numbers are alts. GD probably has the highest concentration. Specifically created (sometimes years ago) to say what they like - whilst evading ingame consequences. Doesn't sound cut-throat and free to me. And it makes their criticism of newer alt posters as 'trolls' a bit odd, eh? Lecturing people pompously from forum alts on loss mechanics and being really obnoxious without any possibility of ingame retribution isn't just cowardice or hypocricy. It might well be game breaking if it allows such virulent badposting it impacts new player retention and long term player interraction with either devs or the wider community because people think the forum is full of trolls and avoid it like the plague.

This isn't directed at you or anyone in particular btw. I know some try to help and snap when needed - but there are a few who do nothing but gurn. I do wonder how many of the people most likely to gob off on EvE-O are even in a player corp or alliance (or have ever been for any length of time) and whether they talk like this on their own forums. Most would drop-kick persistent offenders like this in short order. Either people are alt posting to abuse random strangers because they can't in their own player group, or they've never been in one. Again, it's not representative of attitudes ingame and considering GD is really the heart of the EvE forums, not a great selling point for the game or the forums.

Spenser, this is as hominem.