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[New structures] Mooring and docking features

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Styphon the Black
Forced Euthanasia
#561 - 2015-10-22 20:40:43 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hello people,

We would like your feedback on the various new structure lines presented during Fanfest and on our latest structure blog.

This particular thread is going to be around the mooring and docking features tied with those new structures.


  • Mooring is intended for the largest ships (supercapitals and maybe capitals) to be safely stored around those new structures. As long as they are within a specific radius of the structure, they would be invulnerable and could not be bumped. They would otherwise not be able to interact with their surroundings or other ships on the field as long as they would be protected. This is meant as a replacement for Starbase forcefield which currently has a certain number of issues.

  • Docking is intended for smaller ships to be able to get inside the structure and be safe from direct assault (just like in NPC stations)


We are aware mooring presents a lot of discussion points, some of which were expressed during the Fanfest structure round table:


  • Having (super)capitals visible from space, even if invulnerable to direct assault, is going a huge intelligence boost to opposing forces.
  • Having (super)capitals traceable in such a manner could allow third parties to ambush (super)capital pilots as soon as they remove moorings to destroy the ships before they can escape.
  • Having a fixed mooring capability on those structures will create problems if the structure mooring capability is full when another (super)capital pilot tries to use it under pressure.


We are considering various ways of solving the points listed above, like giving some "buffer time" when pilots moor and remove moorings to give them time to react by either jumping / warping away or aligning to another structure with available mooring capability.


Please tell me why Mooring is going to be better option for Super capital Pilots than it is today? What benefits do those pilots gain verse just logging ship off in space? The only thing I see is that the pilot will be able to do something else other than being stuck in a flying coffin. However, then they are risking hundreds of billions of isk leaving a Super in a station and also giving valuable intel to other people about how many and which assists are in a system. I think alliances are going to continue to value protecting their assists over allowing a single toon (which isn't used for anything else today) to be able to take part in other activities beyond driving a Super around and taking part in fleet battles.

Basically the mooring idea sounds cool but it will not be adopted.
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#562 - 2015-10-24 16:32:48 UTC
Styphon the Black wrote:
......................
Basically the mooring idea sounds cool but it will not be adopted.



- dock in Citadel; put big shiny on contract; sell

- dock in Citadel; repackage big shiny; put on market; sell

- dock in Citadel; pop out in hauler; visit PI and collect; sell products; back in big shiny; back to POS and logoff safely.




What's not to love? That's 3 in just a heartbeat.

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#563 - 2015-10-25 14:14:33 UTC  |  Edited by: helana Tsero
I have to be honest and I think the tethering graphics and concept is awful.

If your doing away with docking games then there is an opportunity to make ships come and going from a citadel look cool.

You posted a fantasy video of Jita 44..... without the bumping and the ships sticking through each other as they stop on a dime and twist to enter warp.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlbQD40b3Hk (nice additional moon btw and transporting jita to minnie space lol)

That video looked cool. Why cant docking and tethering be more ordered and look cooler..

Why cant tethering be landing on the surface of the citadel. Its huge... should easily be enough space for couple of hundred ships. Give players a limited amount of time to be tethered.. and then they have to dock or get towed into space :p

Otherwise players are going to leave ships dangling from the citadels with un realistic and silly looking silvery energy ropes/tethers hanging from them... doesnt look very good at all.


Id like to see docking/undocking lanes. Where ships are automatically towed into station from a given distance.. So the docking / undocking can look cool.. not a mess like current docking/undocking in busy stations.

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
Talassa Noran
Doomheim
#564 - 2015-10-25 17:26:11 UTC
so this mooring/tethering is something that allows me to like today to just warp into the pos, offload ore into storage/compression and then warp immediately away to mining belt? so it will be also in

i do hope brain in the box can reduce the docking/undocking time but with procurer/skiff with boosts a person has to unload ore every 8 minutes ..

thank you
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#565 - 2015-10-25 17:52:46 UTC
Talassa Noran wrote:
so this mooring/tethering is something that allows me to like today to just warp into the pos, offload ore into storage/compression and then warp immediately away to mining belt? so it will be also in

i do hope brain in the box can reduce the docking/undocking time but with procurer/skiff with boosts a person has to unload ore every 8 minutes ..

thank you

roughly yes.. maybe. It has been said that it is the replacement for the POS force field. ie you can still log out in an oversize ship. next to station and not worry about it getting vaporized.

there is one promised difference. HIC are suppose to prevent docking. I assume you would have to aggress first.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Dutow Sa
Jupiter Fleet
#566 - 2015-10-26 17:59:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Dutow Sa
Not sure if this is the right topic to ask this, but it could fit into any new structure related.

From the Siege V2 blog, anchoring:

Quote:
The structure goes into a 24 hour invulnerability timer. No damage can be done during that time and the owner cannot cancel this action once it has been confirmed


This means that the structure


  • won't be usable for 24 hours
  • will be limited in the first 24 hours, some features working, some not (for example, I don't see a required module/rig for docking)
  • will be fully usable even during the first 24 hours


?
Grorious Reader
Mongorian Horde
#567 - 2015-10-26 20:53:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Grorious Reader
So according to the Citadel FAQ document, it appears that you will not be able to dock an Orca in a medium citadel. This is seems like a slap in the face for wormholers (you'd think by now we'd be used to getting sh*t on by CCP) doing industry in low class holes; since you need a freighter to deploy a large citadel, and you'd have to build one in a POS to do that in a low class wormhole. This means that after POSes are phased out, it won't be possible to keep an orca in a low class wormhole unless you have a dedicated alt to log off in it.

In no other way is an Orca treated like an actual capital ship. It's allowed in high-sec. It's always been able to use gates. It doesn't even go over the 300,000,000 mass mark. Now suddenly it's a capital ship because reasons. There's absolutely no rational reason it shouldn't be allowed to dock in a medium citadel.

Update: So during the EVE Vegas structure talk they said that freighters will be able to dock in medium citadels. I would guess that also includes orcas. So... \o/
Tackly Tackleson
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#568 - 2015-10-26 23:51:56 UTC
What if activating self destruct was either prevented while tethered or removed the tether. (Idea is aimed at wormholes to prevent watching future loot evaporate before the attackers eyes.)
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#569 - 2015-10-27 16:32:20 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hello people,

We would like your feedback on the various new structure lines presented during Fanfest and on our latest structure blog.

This particular thread is going to be around the mooring and docking features tied with those new structures.


  • Mooring is intended for the largest ships (supercapitals and maybe capitals) to be safely stored around those new structures. As long as they are within a specific radius of the structure, they would be invulnerable and could not be bumped. They would otherwise not be able to interact with their surroundings or other ships on the field as long as they would be protected. This is meant as a replacement for Starbase forcefield which currently has a certain number of issues.

  • Docking is intended for smaller ships to be able to get inside the structure and be safe from direct assault (just like in NPC stations)


We are aware mooring presents a lot of discussion points, some of which were expressed during the Fanfest structure round table:


  • Having (super)capitals visible from space, even if invulnerable to direct assault, is going a huge intelligence boost to opposing forces.
  • Having (super)capitals traceable in such a manner could allow third parties to ambush (super)capital pilots as soon as they remove moorings to destroy the ships before they can escape.
  • Having a fixed mooring capability on those structures will create problems if the structure mooring capability is full when another (super)capital pilot tries to use it under pressure.


We are considering various ways of solving the points listed above, like giving some "buffer time" when pilots moor and remove moorings to give them time to react by either jumping / warping away or aligning to another structure with available mooring capability.


How is this going to work with Orca's It's being brought up all over the place that for the new citadel purposes, Orcas may be considered capitals.

What about rorquals/ any ship using active modules? as a replacement, there seems to be the stipulation, that if your within, what? 45 km-ish of a large you are under the "mooring" buff and cannot fire. do other modules still work? (I.e. active tank modules) is this going to maintain the status quo for Orca's and Rorquals?
Miss Iniquitous
Razing Demolitions
#570 - 2015-10-28 11:38:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss Iniquitous
Quote:
Medium sized Citadel structures will be around 5-25km in diameter and are tailored for individual or small groups of players. They will be able to fit some appropriate defenses to offer resistance against most kind of assaults including capital ships. Moreover, players can dock inside them with sub-capital ships.

Large sized Citadel structures will be around 25-50km in diameter and are made for corporations or even small alliances. They will offer more advanced functionality over medium-sized Citadels, mainly in the form of area of effect (AoE) defenses and facilities that are more tailored to support large fleets. While players will be able to dock with sub-capitals, capitals are still up to debate at this point.

X-Large sized Citadel structures will be around 100km in diameter and are specialized for high-end alliance gameplay. On top of the mechanics listed above, they will have the best defensive options to face against particularly large groups and allow capital ships to be docked (even maybe supercapitals--to be discussed).
<- (Cut from CSM Citadel FAQ Doc)

It says in the above that X-Large are tailored for high end alliance gameplay. Supers/Titan won't be able to dock in large, only XL. In that fact sheet it also says capitals may not even be able to dock in Large Citadel.

So you are basically saying we should be involved in high end alliance gameplay if we own a capital/super/titan. I really don't like this, High end alliance gameplay doesn't appeal to me whatsoever. So what happens to people like me who don't want to be in a big alliance? You don't want small gang players to have capitals/supers. It seems as if you are giving all the advantage and benefit of having capital/supers to the big alliances.

The structures should be chosen by players in accordance with the number of members/people they expect to use them to satisfy the demand and desired defence. Rather than people buying XL just to house their personal caps/supers.

Edit, This answers my Q somewhat and the reply below thanks mate.

Quote:
Must I be docked to access my stuff?
We are going to allow you to access your personal hangar and maybe your corporation hangar when you are close to the structure. This will allow large ships to use structures too small for them to dock at. They will be secured with the invulnerability link at this time.
Cut from same doc


Miss Iniquitious
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#571 - 2015-10-28 11:44:26 UTC
Miss Iniquitous wrote:

Quote:
Medium sized Citadel structures will be around 5-25km in diameter and are tailored for individual or small groups of players. They will be able to fit some appropriate defenses to offer resistance against most kind of assaults including capital ships. Moreover, players can dock inside them with sub-capital ships.

Large sized Citadel structures will be around 25-50km in diameter and are made for corporations or even small alliances. They will offer more advanced functionality over medium-sized Citadels, mainly in the form of area of effect (AoE) defenses and facilities that are more tailored to support large fleets. While players will be able to dock with sub-capitals, capitals are still up to debate at this point.

X-Large sized Citadel structures will be around 100km in diameter and are specialized for high-end alliance gameplay. On top of the mechanics listed above, they will have the best defensive options to face against particularly large groups and allow capital ships to be docked (even maybe supercapitals--to be discussed).
<- (Cut from CSM Citadel FAQ Doc)

It says in the above that X-Large are tailored for high end alliance gameplay. Supers/Titan won't be able to dock in large, only XL. In that fact sheet it also says capitals may not even be able to dock in Large Citadel.

So you are basically saying we should be involved in high end alliance gameplay if we own a capital/super/titan. I really don't like this, High end alliance gameplay doesn't appeal to me whatsoever. So what happens to people like me who don't want to be in a big alliance? You don't want small gang players to have capitals/supers. It seems as if you are giving all the advantage and benefit of having capital/supers to the big alliances.

Miss Iniquitious

IF you can afford a titan/Super then you can afford a XL. Also you don't have to dock them You can use the pos force field replacement. Tethering. And log out in a sitter character.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#572 - 2015-10-28 14:11:00 UTC
Removing sticky. Still want your feedback but we need room for other thread in this subforum. New pinned thread will be pointing to this one.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#573 - 2015-10-28 15:04:25 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Ytterbium
Alright, to recap where we're at with this.


Tethering:


  • Going to be renamed tethering instead of mooring (mooring is confusing for various reasons).
  • As long as within some specific range of the structure and do not have weapons timer, you ship is tethered, meaning it cannot receive damage or be locked.
  • You can align and move within the specified tethering range and still be protected, as long as you do not go outside the maximum range.
  • You will not be able to tether to the structure if you are warp scrambled from a targeted module (HIC point, regular warp scrambling modules).
  • You will be able to tether to the structure if you are within an AoE warp scramble bubble (HIC AoE bubble, interdictor bubble). Of course you will not be able to warp away however. This is to prevent people from being caught their pants down when logging back on near a structure.
  • Tethering will be shown in the UI and visually in space.
  • We are investigating options to minimize bumping when you are tethered.
  • If your ship has access to dock into the structure it can use tethering. This doesn't mean you ship can dock however. For instance, you may have access to dock into a Medium Citadel as a Titan pilot, but you still are unable to dock. Your Titan will still be tethered when in range of the structure.
  • If you log off you do not stay in space near the structure, you log off as you normally would (which is why calling this feature "mooring" is confusing).
  • If you leave your active ship the tether will not protect the ship left behind and will tether to your capsule.


Docking


  • Medium Citadels: all subcapitals can dock. The Orca and Freighters can also dock.
  • Large Citadels: all capitals can dock. This includes the Rorqual.
  • X-Large Citadels: all ships can dock.
  • There are different docking bays depending if you are in a subcapital, capital or supercapital. Depending on the structure, there may be more than one of each. You cannot choose which one to undock from (for now at least).
  • There is no station interior. When you dock the scene is centered around the structure. Some information may be hidden (like the overview or ship modules) since technically you are not in a ship anymore. Since you're tethered it's easy to undock and then dock back up to get this information back.


Defense


  • Assuming direct control of the structure brings the overview and structure modules up, since you are now manning its defenses.
  • We're going to require proper user groups to assume direct control. They'll provide more flexibility than roles since groups can be defined for people outside your corporation or alliance. They'll have admins and managers, more on that on the item safety thread.
  • You'll be able to set up groups to kick people out when assuming direct control - just in case that nasty spy is shooting on your own ships during a fleet battle.
  • You won't need to train Starbase Defense Management to assume direct control. One player will control all defenses at once. The Starbase Defense Management skill will be removed (and reimbursed) or properly refurbished when we remove Starbases.
  • New structures will not have automated defenses.
  • Rest of the defense mechanics are explained there.
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#574 - 2015-10-28 18:12:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarnis McPieksu
If you want to fix "MY SHIP SPINNING, NO!" cries, just do this:

Docked-in-Citadel players open up a window once properly docked, called "Docking Bay View". This is a normal floating window that can be defaulted to on or off from settings and manually opened from the neocom when docked to a Citadel.

In all intents and purposes, this window is your fitting window - your ship floating. Except all the fitting-related UI content is disabled by default and instead there is just a list of ships in your station inventory and the active ship (spinnable!). Click on another ship and it views/switches to that ship. Press a button to turn the window into a fitting window (bonus points for slick transition between the two modes). This is purely small-time UI code that could be retrofitted from existing fitting window. During all this time you would still be centered on the citadel in the "full screen" view of the game and would see things happening outside it.

..but you could spin the ship in the "docking bay view" window, switch between ships, switch to fitting them etc.

If CCP wanted to bling it up a bit, they could add a simple docking bay interior art that is shown in the window around the ship (replacing the nebula/starfield that currently is in the fitting window around the ship), but this would be purely "eye candy, done if there is spare time and/or they really want to polish this up".

Makeitso.jpg
Liner Xiandra
Sparks Inc
#575 - 2015-10-28 20:58:54 UTC
Sad to read no station interior.
I do appreciate being to able to see what's going on outside, but the station interior is a biggie in the whole docking experience.

Instead of having just

  • station-spinner
  • captain quarters


have a 3rd option, the citadel-spinner?
Yeah, that would still require you to model a new station interior with captainsquarters, i know. Still though.
Soleil Fournier
Fliet Pizza Delivery
Of Essence
#576 - 2015-10-29 01:33:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Soleil Fournier
Please preserve ship spinning in some way shape or form.

I would prefer an option:

I can either spin the structure and see the space around me or I can press a button and enter a station interior and spin my ship. This interior can be generic, bland, virtual, whatever. But let me see my ship and its skin, dirt, guns, etc in a similar manner I can today.

This is a super important feature to the experience of eve online especially for older players. Really can't believe after the summer of rage and re-introduction of ship spinning afterwords that we need to go through this fight again.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#577 - 2015-10-29 02:54:48 UTC
Just add the ability to semi to fully dock... semi dock is the mechanic as proposed. fully dock is the standard interior dock that allows the current system...


CCP please ask yourself how many times has removing existing functionality worked well for you guys?

I think the idea of semi docked being able to see whats outside of the citadel is awesome... but please let me fully dock if i want :)

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#578 - 2015-11-01 11:37:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Alright, to recap where we're at with this.


Tethering:


  • Going to be renamed tethering instead of mooring (mooring is confusing for various reasons).
  • As long as within some specific range of the structure and do not have weapons timer, you ship is tethered, meaning it cannot receive damage or be locked.
  • You can align and move within the specified tethering range and still be protected, as long as you do not go outside the maximum range.
  • You will not be able to tether to the structure if you are warp scrambled from a targeted module (HIC point, regular warp scrambling modules).
  • You will be able to tether to the structure if you are within an AoE warp scramble bubble (HIC AoE bubble, interdictor bubble). Of course you will not be able to warp away however. This is to prevent people from being caught their pants down when logging back on near a structure.
  • Tethering will be shown in the UI and visually in space.
  • We are investigating options to minimize bumping when you are tethered.
  • If your ship has access to dock into the structure it can use tethering. This doesn't mean you ship can dock however. For instance, you may have access to dock into a Medium Citadel as a Titan pilot, but you still are unable to dock. Your Titan will still be tethered when in range of the structure.
  • If you log off you do not stay in space near the structure, you log off as you normally would (which is why calling this feature "mooring" is confusing).
  • If you leave your active ship the tether will not protect the ship left behind and will tether to your capsule.


Docking


  • Medium Citadels: all subcapitals can dock. The Orca and Freighters can also dock.
  • Large Citadels: all capitals can dock. This includes the Rorqual.
  • X-Large Citadels: all ships can dock.
  • There are different docking bays depending if you are in a subcapital, capital or supercapital. Depending on the structure, there may be more than one of each. You cannot choose which one to undock from (for now at least).
  • There is no station interior. When you dock the scene is centered around the structure. Some information may be hidden (like the overview or ship modules) since technically you are not in a ship anymore. Since you're tethered it's easy to undock and then dock back up to get this information back.


Defense


  • Assuming direct control of the structure brings the overview and structure modules up, since you are now manning its defenses.
  • We're going to require proper user groups to assume direct control. They'll provide more flexibility than roles since groups can be defined for people outside your corporation or alliance. They'll have admins and managers, more on that on the item safety thread.
  • You'll be able to set up groups to kick people out when assuming direct control - just in case that nasty spy is shooting on your own ships during a fleet battle.
  • You won't need to train Starbase Defense Management to assume direct control. One player will control all defenses at once. The Starbase Defense Management skill will be removed (and reimbursed) or properly refurbished when we remove Starbases.
  • New structures will not have automated defenses.
  • Rest of the defense mechanics are explained there.
This is a major omission (removes the functionality previously provided by XL-SMAs) please explain?

Edit: The "We are investigating options to minimize bumping when you are tethered..." doesn't exactly fill one with confidence, since you moving away from the binary start (either are in, or out of, the POS forcefield)

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Calreal Garthinus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#579 - 2015-11-02 12:04:06 UTC
i may have missed this, but there will no longer be a service, similar to the ship maintenance array, in the Citadel ...
I have to dock, reship and undock?
am i wrong?
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#580 - 2015-11-02 14:09:15 UTC
Calreal Garthinus wrote:
i may have missed this, but there will no longer be a service, similar to the ship maintenance array, in the Citadel ...
I have to dock, reship and undock?
am i wrong?


I'm fairly sure that I have seen a Dev comment that 'tethering' will allow access to at least some of the Citadel services without actually docking - and thus likely the fitting screen.

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium