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The kills of 2014: statistical analysis on the zkillboard data
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Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
Insidious.
#41 - 2015-10-27 17:36:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
Templar Dane wrote:
Agree with everyone that says killboards are a joke. If the isk damage was evenly split among all participants, that would be more fair.

For the people interested in killboard stats, they'd try to solo or do small gang instead of blobbing up and ganking condors all day long.


Well, there's nothing stopping anyone making such a killboard? The API data is all there, it's up to people how to use it.

For all the talk of people inflating their ego over their zkillboard I bet you'd get a lot who couldn't resist sneaking a look at their "real killboard" if they knew it was sitting out there somewhere.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#42 - 2015-10-27 17:43:50 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Funny how the usual suspects are crying about this while they are busy making some **** up about why the calculations are not relevant. Also funny how they are not even on the list which should obviously tell us a lot about their relevance.
Bad stats are bad, however you swing them. It's funny how your rush in to defend them since you are on the list though. Says a lot about how much you need your epeen stroked to get over that general feeling of inadequacy from ganking nubs. Even funnier that you need it stroked by Gevlon of all people.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#43 - 2015-10-27 17:59:18 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Funny how the usual suspects are crying about this while they are busy making some **** up about why the calculations are not relevant. Also funny how they are not even on the list which should obviously tell us a lot about their relevance.
Bad stats are bad, however you swing them. It's funny how your rush in to defend them since you are on the list though. Says a lot about how much you need your epeen stroked to get over that general feeling of inadequacy from ganking nubs. Even funnier that you need it stroked by Gevlon of all people.


Hook, line and sinker...
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#44 - 2015-10-27 18:01:27 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Hook, line and sinker...
If you say so Lol

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Capt Starfox
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#45 - 2015-10-27 18:02:56 UTC
We deed it high fives all around!!1

Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#46 - 2015-10-27 18:46:10 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
Kuronaga wrote:
Some EVE players are very smart and have much to be proud of. Most are not, but will cling to faux killboard statistics to try and make themselves feel relevant.

While it is fun to shine a flashlight on these sad people and call them out when they start bragging (ooh, you got to be 1 out of 32 people shooting at a single target, big accomplishment) it is unfortunately not a fight you will ever verbally win against them. Some people will always be bad, and they need the reassurance of false accomplishment to make life worth living for themselves. Even if that reassurance is a bald faced lie. They will happily plug their ears when the truth comes knocking because that's just human nature.


I say this from the POV of someone who only solo PVPs, but I find this assessment a little harsh.


+1

Solo PVPrs (not you of course Big smile) tend to be very prideful of what they do, and to some extent that's fine. But at some point they cross a line and think that everyone should judge success and worth like they do.

He makes fun of the people happy to be 1 of 32 people. To me, that killmail makes me feel good ,not because it shows how awesome I am (I don't need to be told this by video game nerds), but because it shows I contributed to my team/group/corp/alliance rather than sit back and leech off other folks efforts. Solo guys (again not you Big smile ) can't seem to grasp that idea, it's all about them, screw everyone else.


I agree there's nothing wrong with KMs as a record of one's exploits whether you're a soloist, a ganker, a small gang or large fleet enthusiast. I think the scoring is off on boards like zkill and think battleclinic's take is better, but then I would because it's serves my interest Blink Boards like zkill are far better for information gathering and actually updating once in a while.

Could zkill kill be better, sure, but there's other boards out there if you don't like how they do it. That said, I really enjoyed Gevlon's analysis, it was nice to see solo and very small gang pvp contributing so much damage to the whole... alive and well Lol
Marsha Mallow
#47 - 2015-10-27 18:56:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Marsha Mallow
Kuronaga wrote:
Some EVE players are very smart and have much to be proud of. Most are not, but will cling to faux killboard statistics to try and make themselves feel relevant.

While it is fun to shine a flashlight on these sad people and call them out when they start bragging (ooh, you got to be 1 out of 32 people shooting at a single target, big accomplishment) it is unfortunately not a fight you will ever verbally win against them. Some people will always be bad, and they need the reassurance of false accomplishment to make life worth living for themselves. Even if that reassurance is a bald faced lie. They will happily plug their ears when the truth comes knocking because that's just human nature.

That argument works both ways. The elitist mentality is evident from [some, not all] soloers and small gangers with reference to large scale PVP. At one point I had alts in all three types of groups (small, pirate, null) and the L33T groups have always been baffled by my preference to play more dominantly in medium sized groups.

Apart from the obvious (that I can fleet up and get drunk/forum whilst in fleet) they seem to overlook the very real enjoyment people get from group PVP. You don't get parts of this or this when you're soloing or in small gangs - or you do, but there's no one to share it with. If the fight does have significance in a larger campaign, it's part of a player-driven story. That's not better than going out and soloing a Battleship in a Frigate, it's just different. People who prize individual pilot skill, fitting, engagement decisions and being a baller get to experience that adrenaline and satisfaction themselves, fair enough. I've had my speakers on during run ups to fleets and listened to an FC whip dozens of people into a hilarious frenzy before a fight - if anyone ever walks in who doesn't play whilst these are on they absolutely wet themselves laughing. But they comment it's kind of awesome too.

Gevlon's analysis of killboards is interesting in a few ways, but I think using it as a vehicle to criticise certain types of player organisation or playstyle is a massive mistake. Corps and alliances have a backbone of people (basically the unsung heros) who do all the work in the background to put people into fights. And those are never credited on killboards. Think things like POS fuellers, moon mining managers, diplomats, scouts, recruiters, spies, forum warriors, propaganda creators, fitting managers, event planners, personel, miners, manufacturers, haulers. I could go on and on here, but the point is larger groups offer massive diversity in terms of playstyles and abilities that pure solo PVP elitist clickmonkeys just don't have, and don't appreciate. Which completely undermines any attempt to use big group killboard stats to critique player organisations in this game - because you can win in a lot of different ways.

I remarked to a lowsec alliance leader a while back 'This is a wargame, after all' and he said quite primly 'It is, but not for you' and I thought 'hmmm, we'll see about that'. We aren't all FCs or really mouthily at the front clickclickclicking and being an elitist gamerboi, but you can absolutely fight from the back on your own terms. I don't ever recall hearing a soloer recount having recruited as many people as me, moved a corp through multiple regions, dealt with their infighting, kept them motivated, stayed up all hours in meetings and tearing down structures or running mass evacs. So when they whip their KB out and waggle it in my face (or anyone, for that matter) it's not an unreasonable response to burst out laughing.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#48 - 2015-10-27 19:34:17 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:


Apart from the obvious (that I can fleet up and get drunk/forum whilst in fleet) they seem to overlook the very real enjoyment people get from group PVP. You don't get parts of this or this when you're soloing or in small gangs - or you do, but there's no one to share it with. If the fight does have significance in a larger campaign, it's part of a player-driven story. That's not better than going out and soloing a Battleship in a Frigate, it's just different. People who prize individual pilot skill, fitting, engagement decisions and being a baller get to experience that adrenaline and satisfaction themselves, fair enough. I've had my speakers on during run ups to fleets and listened to an FC whip dozens of people into a hilarious frenzy before a fight - if anyone ever walks in who doesn't play whilst these are on they absolutely wet themselves laughing. But they comment it's kind of awesome too.



That sums it up perfectly. It also sums up why I don't play other MMOs but do play EVE, most other MMOs are single player games with other people around, I recently retried SWTOR and found myself bored to death because the game centered around npc interactions and 'the story'. Even being in an End Game guild doesn't help.

In EVE, I'm IN the story.
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#49 - 2015-10-27 19:47:54 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Kuronaga wrote:
Some EVE players are very smart and have much to be proud of. Most are not, but will cling to faux killboard statistics to try and make themselves feel relevant.

While it is fun to shine a flashlight on these sad people and call them out when they start bragging (ooh, you got to be 1 out of 32 people shooting at a single target, big accomplishment) it is unfortunately not a fight you will ever verbally win against them. Some people will always be bad, and they need the reassurance of false accomplishment to make life worth living for themselves. Even if that reassurance is a bald faced lie. They will happily plug their ears when the truth comes knocking because that's just human nature.

That argument works both ways. The elitist mentality is evident from [some, not all] soloers and small gangers with reference to large scale PVP. At one point I had alts in all three types of groups (small, pirate, null) and the L33T groups have always been baffled by my preference to play more dominantly in medium sized groups.

Apart from the obvious (that I can fleet up and get drunk/forum whilst in fleet) they seem to overlook the very real enjoyment people get from group PVP. You don't get parts of this or this when you're soloing or in small gangs - or you do, but there's no one to share it with. If the fight does have significance in a larger campaign, it's part of a player-driven story. That's not better than going out and soloing a Battleship in a Frigate, it's just different. People who prize individual pilot skill, fitting, engagement decisions and being a baller get to experience that adrenaline and satisfaction themselves, fair enough. I've had my speakers on during run ups to fleets and listened to an FC whip dozens of people into a hilarious frenzy before a fight - if anyone ever walks in who doesn't play whilst these are on they absolutely wet themselves laughing. But they comment it's kind of awesome too.

Gevlon's analysis of killboards is interesting in a few ways, but I think using it as a vehicle to criticise certan types of player organisation or playstyle is a massive mistake. Corps and alliances have a backbone of people (basically the unsung heros) who do all the work in the background to put people into fights. And those are never credited on killboards. Think things like POS fuellers, moon mining managers, diplomats, scouts, recruiters, spies, forum warriors, propaganda creators, fitting managers, event planners, personel, miners, manufacturers, haulers. I could go on and on here, but the point is larger groups offer massive diversity in terms of playstyles and abilities that pure solo PVP elitist clickmonkeys just don't have, and don't appreciate. Which completely undermines any attempt to use big group killboard stats to critique player organisations in this game - because you can win in a lot of different ways.

I remarked to a lowsec alliance leader a while back 'This is a wargame, after all' and he said quite primly 'It is, but not for you' and I thought 'hmmm, we'll see about that'. We aren't all FCs or really mouthily at the front clickclickclicking and being an elitist gamerboi, but you can absolutely fight from the back on your own terms. I don't ever recall hearing a soloer recount having recruited as many people as me, moved a corp through multiple regions, dealt with their infighting, kept them motivated, stayed up all hours in meetings and tearing down structures or running mass evacs. So when they whip their KB out and waggle it in my face (or anyone, for that matter) it's not an unreasonable response to burst out laughing.


Good post
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#50 - 2015-10-27 19:59:37 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
There would be other benefits too, more players would fly strictly for fun without thinking about killboards. Real content would go up.


You can already fly for fun without caring about killboards... Nobody can force you to care about your killboard in EVE. Caring about it is something you choose to do or not.

I agree, but that doesn't conflict with what I said in any way.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#51 - 2015-10-27 20:03:19 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
There would be other benefits too, more players would fly strictly for fun without thinking about killboards. Real content would go up.


You can already fly for fun without caring about killboards... Nobody can force you to care about your killboard in EVE. Caring about it is something you choose to do or not.

I agree, but that doesn't conflict with what I said in any way.


How about the fact you say people will start doing something they can already do? Removing killbaord will not make people fly without caring about their killboard because they can already do this. Removing killboard changes nothing to the people who don't care about it.
Marsha Mallow
#52 - 2015-10-27 20:14:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Marsha Mallow
Frostys Virpio wrote:
How about the fact you say people will start doing something they can already do? Removing killbaord will not make people fly without caring about their killboard because they can already do this. Removing killboard changes nothing to the people who don't care about it.

Ask that question again, in different ways maybe?

I've seen multiple arguments on this, both in the forums and ingame, but there are a couple that are chiming across playstyles, to me anyway. Still undecided. These can be considered from a personal or group persective - and I think there's some relevance splitting those out.

Do killboards enhance or inhibit gameplay?
Do killboards provide an accurate, relevant record of gameplay?
Are killboards a vehicle for content, public shaming, intel, movements - what is their purpose?
Are killboards promoting or degrading playstyles, attitudes and/or risk aversion?
Would the sky fall if killboards were removed or had never been implemented in the first place?

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#53 - 2015-10-27 20:49:20 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
How about the fact you say people will start doing something they can already do? Removing killbaord will not make people fly without caring about their killboard because they can already do this. Removing killboard changes nothing to the people who don't care about it.

Ask that question again, in different ways maybe?

I've seen multiple arguments on this, both in the forums and ingame, but there are a couple that are chiming across playstyles, to me anyway. Still undecided. These can be considered from a personal or group persective - and I think there's some relevance splitting those out.

Do killboards enhance or inhibit gameplay?
Do killboards provide an accurate, relevant record of gameplay?
Are killboards a vehicle for content, public shaming, intel, movements - what is their purpose?
Are killboards promoting or degrading playstyles, attitudes and/or risk aversion?
Would the sky fall if killboards were removed or had never been implemented in the first place?


If killbaord are usefull or not depends on what user make out of it. Some stuff would be "ruined" for some people if they stopped exsisting because they rely on it for intel and what not but people who want to fly without caring about it sure as hell don't care about it already. Removing them will only remove the option of caring about it. The "IDGAF" option already exist.
Marsha Mallow
#54 - 2015-10-27 21:13:38 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If killbaord are usefull or not depends on what user make out of it. Some stuff would be "ruined" for some people if they stopped exsisting because they rely on it for intel and what not but people who want to fly without caring about it sure as hell don't care about it already. Removing them will only remove the option of caring about it. The "IDGAF" option already exist.

Just think on it and come back to it with something bigger, not just you, but the rest. Esp Gevlon, out of curiosity.

This kb stat issue is rippling about as a discussion point, and I want to see more people pick it up and give it some attention.

Bear in mind the newbro groups: Gewns, Test, Brave have always rejected kb stat epeen. And the Old Gits have always droned on about it. There is something inbetween, but it makes me wonder if we aren't being throttled by a decision to release info to the playerbase via the API that perhaps isn't wise. Remember EvE players edgeplay everything to create advantages. m0o didn't get their rep from killboards, but CODE is - is it better or worse to have a word of mouth rep/legend or basically a spreadsheet record? We have the tools to record fights and document losses.

KB stat epeen has the downside of KB stat fear, hence the risk-aversion remarks. Especially for people playing in larger groups who either don't want to be trolled, don't want to make their friends look bad, or are just a bit derpy and don't want to be kicked from a group they like for being berks. I have an issue with parts of this after trying to protect 'village idiots' (who were our mates) against kb stat/epeen warrior ragers - who went to leet groups anyway. Players can be taught how to play, but a lot of 'pure' gamers are twats who don't even appreciate the wider game anyway and just want to torment people they don't like and engage in mindless nerdrage. It's a bit off, esp since as I said earlier, you don't even need to be a click warrior to win an EvE Online engagement. Actually you need imagination.

I'd rather see people logged on and in space being unrepentent space numpties than station spinning staring at forums... waiting, for someone else to jeer at.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#55 - 2015-10-28 07:36:41 UTC
Ray P wrote:
Faction war corps?

Send 1 B as asked in OP and I make their analysis. Or download the dataset and make it yourself.

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com
MECHcore
Saiyans United
#56 - 2015-10-28 11:05:51 UTC  |  Edited by: MECHcore
Zkillboard like all the others isn't accurate, some other ones show thousands, Zkillboard shows less then 2k, a total joke.

Although i understand that killboards didn't exist back in time, none of them these days are accurate having all my kills/losses since i started playing in 04.

Battleclinic shows 3,5K or something, considered not having all kills either.
In my early years i had 3k+ on a certain corpmade kb with Celes Apoc in 2 years, before the big ones existed, so sry to say but unless CCP makes a true accurate one themselves, the current ones will only be usefull to see the fittings and drops/isk loss ( battle outcome somehow), and not the amount of kills/losses accurate ( had a Gnosis loss and its not there on Zkillboard ).

My personal estimate is about 10k kills, maybe more or maybe less, so CCP make a damn KB ingame that has everything from the past recorded aswell ! ( API on player made kb doesn't have the old kms, or few ! )

Apologies for bad English Smile
Commander Spurty
#57 - 2015-10-28 11:25:57 UTC
Last hit gets the killing blow - remove everyone else and see what you get

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#58 - 2015-10-28 15:18:36 UTC
MECHcore wrote:
Zkillboard like all the others isn't accurate, some other ones show thousands, Zkillboard shows less then 2k, a total joke.

Although i understand that killboards didn't exist back in time, none of them these days are accurate having all my kills/losses since i started playing in 04.

Battleclinic shows 3,5K or something, considered not having all kills either.
In my early years i had 3k+ on a certain corpmade kb with Celes Apoc in 2 years, before the big ones existed, so sry to say but unless CCP makes a true accurate one themselves, the current ones will only be usefull to see the fittings and drops/isk loss ( battle outcome somehow), and not the amount of kills/losses accurate ( had a Gnosis loss and its not there on Zkillboard ).

My personal estimate is about 10k kills, maybe more or maybe less, so CCP make a damn KB ingame that has everything from the past recorded aswell ! ( API on player made kb doesn't have the old kms, or few ! )

Apologies for bad English Smile

Good idea, remove out of game killboards, overhaul the KM system and put it in game.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#59 - 2015-10-28 15:28:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Desideratus
Frostys Virpio wrote:


How about the fact you say people will start doing something they can already do? Removing killbaord will not make people fly without caring about their killboard because they can already do this. Removing killboard changes nothing to the people who don't care about it.

Just because we have the option of not caring doesn't mean that killboards don't affect the way people play. You can't seriously think that if killboards were removed, it would have no affect. The idea that killboards are important and meaningful has been perpetuated by the majority of players for a long time. They not only believe that killboards are accurate but that their statistics are meaningful, but both of those premises are highly debatable. If MECHcore's post is any indication these killboards are worthless in terms of historical documentation.

I didn't originally say that killboards should be removed entirely, but I also wouldn't mind if they were. They should be overhauled though. I like MECHcore's idea about putting an in game official KB
Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#60 - 2015-10-28 21:43:09 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
I like MECHcore's idea about putting an in game official KB

I don't think CCP will work just to tell 98% of their customers that they suck at PvP hard.

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com