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200mill/h+ Lv4s, typical 3h run breakdown
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Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#81 - 2015-10-26 14:13:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

So my point, and the point of others still stand. Mission income is dependent on a market value which fluctuates and has recently been trending downwards. It is also not unlimited and if everyone was doing what is being proposed, the value of our efforts would be hardly worth it.

Emphasis mine.

I figured as much. The reason for the desperation at least now is confirmed.

Man you are going to hate what I'm putting together Pirate

Market McSelling Alt wrote:

I guess it is best said that the numbers being presented are more of a potential than a hard rate. It is entirely possible that the ratios could go way up one day too, and all that LP some of us have stored in now worthless corps will be worth something too. But that has more to do with Market-Fu than missions.

I can, and have been, dumping millions of LP at effectively over the rate that I use in my examples for almost three months now. The SOE market is far more robust than you think. Yes, it boggles the mind, but enjoy it and stop trying to spread misinformation just to keep your little isk fountain safe. It should be shared with everyone.


I have not seen 36M buy orders in ages for launchers and never seen Stratios buys for above 280. The numbers you are throwing out are unrealistic unless one is playing serious market games with dedicated trade alts in multiple hubs, and doing things like sitting on the LP for long periods of time until an exploitable market fluctuation comes along. So yes you can get 2k ISK/LP but it requires a good deal of luck and patience, trade alts in all the major hubs and the ability to quickly move stock between them. I'm sure there are opportunities for even greater ROI moving stock to lowsec and nullsec markets but Johnny mission runner isn't getting 2k selling to buy orders on a daily basis. I sold a stack of launchers in Dodixie few weeks back for 31M apiece after fees and taxes.

Uh, ok, then did you just not bother logging in to eve over the weekend? Regardless, if I have to repeat the same line for the 5th time I don't mind; There was a price spike this weekend, resulting in very high, but temporary price increase in probe launchers and stratioses. Yes people were putting up buy orders (at least 50 units) for probe launchers for 36mill, no this is not normal, no this inflated price is not what I'm basing the 248.5mill/h income on.

I mean really guys I know we're all a little ADHD but this is getting silly Lol

Edit: There's buy orders for Stratios hulls right now at this moment up for 280,000,105.40.

That's technically over 280mill right? Pirate

http://puu.sh/kYnOh/ae30695776.jpg for anyone doubting the 36mill probe launchers

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#82 - 2015-10-27 00:36:26 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
uuhhhmm.. do I need to mention there are 2 different sisters probe launchers?

the core ones are selling for 36m+ and buying at 35mil in jita right now. the expanded ones are 34.8/33.1. as they have slightly different uses, ie core are only useful for finding sites and have very low fitting costs, where the expanded ones can be used to probe out ships or sites but has very high cpu fitting cost.



Yeah I know that. He claims to have sold Sisters Core Probe Launchers for over 36mil this weekend when the highest recorded sale price in Jita this weekend was 35,009,017

So my point, and the point of others still stand. Mission income is dependent on a market value which fluctuates and has recently been trending downwards. It is also not unlimited and if everyone was doing what is being proposed, the value of our efforts would be hardly worth it.

I guess it is best said that the numbers being presented are more of a potential than a hard rate. It is entirely possible that the ratios could go way up one day too, and all that LP some of us have stored in now worthless corps will be worth something too. But that has more to do with Market-Fu than missions.


the 24th and 25th were this weekend the Average prices were between 36.2 and 36.9 mil. highest recorded sale price would have been 38,949610.43
http://i.imgur.com/6gPZHWC.png

as for LP spikes they are almost impossible to be anything more than short lived thanks to incursion runners. 1 concord LP -> 0.8 any major empire store LP. Has become one of my major gripes as it makes many corps just not worth running for. Burner missions can only be blamed for a small portion of LP price decreases.

Hasikan Miallok wrote:
I do not think anyone is claiming one off prices are sustainable,

You can however do far better than average by watching the market.

Mission alt trading this morning.


However time spent finding best deals can often be better spent running more missions.

EDIT: Dates and times are Aussie TZ


I sold some CN cloaks for ~2700 isk/lp recently P

1500-1800 is reasonably convertible right now. very sure every race has a store that is at or above this point right now. might not be in the awesome volume level, but typically most stores can handle at least a few people running them. that said whatever happens to tag/lp rates when more people start running can be interesting.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#83 - 2015-10-27 08:45:42 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Why do you feel it needs to be nerfed? Keep in mind that burners don't inject much isk into the economy, compared to nullsec ratting for example.

I think you misread my comment... I meant with how successful players are at running them, when is the inevitable nerf bat going to hammer them?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#84 - 2015-10-27 09:11:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Why do you feel it needs to be nerfed? Keep in mind that burners don't inject much isk into the economy, compared to nullsec ratting for example.

I think you misread my comment... I meant with how successful players are at running them, when is the inevitable nerf bat going to hammer them?

Hmm I don't think I'm misreading it at all really.

Why does the fact that some players are able to successfully complete content(most of the time) mean there will be an inevitable nerf?

Effectively to me what you are suggesting is that the content is not working as intended, that being able to complete the content is not something CCP wanted to happen. I believe some of the burners that CCP felt has been too easy have in fact been beefed up(The daredevil is now a really though cookie) so nothing at this date indicates a nerf.

It actually looks like most people don't even *believe* that it's possible to do what some of us are doing, never mind actually running burners at all. A number are also running them extremely inefficiently, using multiple characters to run them and using anything from Marauders to some of the slowest battleships in the game to complete unnecessary normal lv4 missions. From observing the ships undocking in popular trade hubs a very *very* small portion of the mission running population is running at even remotely a good efficiency. We've had people that have been running missions for more years than my character has existed that are getting barely over 100mill/h on a good day for pete's sake .

Basically, just because a tiny number of mission runners are able to get a high isk/h, does this mean the content should be nerfed for the vast majority too lazy or otherwise lacking in mental faculties to achieve a similarly high isk/h?

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2015-10-27 12:36:22 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Why do you feel it needs to be nerfed? Keep in mind that burners don't inject much isk into the economy, compared to nullsec ratting for example.

I think you misread my comment... I meant with how successful players are at running them, when is the inevitable nerf bat going to hammer them?

Hmm I don't think I'm misreading it at all really.

Why does the fact that some players are able to successfully complete content(most of the time) mean there will be an inevitable nerf?

Effectively to me what you are suggesting is that the content is not working as intended, that being able to complete the content is not something CCP wanted to happen. I believe some of the burners that CCP felt has been too easy have in fact been beefed up(The daredevil is now a really though cookie) so nothing at this date indicates a nerf.

It actually looks like most people don't even *believe* that it's possible to do what some of us are doing, never mind actually running burners at all. A number are also running them extremely inefficiently, using multiple characters to run them and using anything from Marauders to some of the slowest battleships in the game to complete unnecessary normal lv4 missions. From observing the ships undocking in popular trade hubs a very *very* small portion of the mission running population is running at even remotely a good efficiency. We've had people that have been running missions for more years than my character has existed that are getting barely over 100mill/h on a good day for pete's sake .

Basically, just because a tiny number of mission runners are able to get a high isk/h, does this mean the content should be nerfed for the vast majority too lazy or otherwise lacking in mental faculties to achieve a similarly high isk/h?


Ironically that is the argument that the "nerf highsec" crowd makes - that risk/reward should be balanced based on the rewards available to the most invested, active and efficient PvE'ers. Of course doing so leaves everyone else out in the cold.

I personally don't run burners because I PvP too much and lose too much ISK there to easily fund the initial startup investment, including the inevitable losses on the learning curve. I've got into incursions instead, which to me don't seem near as broken as everyone claims because once again the high ISK/hr figures tossed out require extreme efficiency in fitting, at the individual level and throughout the entire fleet. Not to mention they're so boring I can scarcely stand to run more than 8-10 sites in one sitting.
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#86 - 2015-10-27 14:31:54 UTC
Damn, and I thought making 100m / hr in low sec was good!
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#87 - 2015-10-27 14:34:49 UTC
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
Damn, and I thought making 100m / hr in low sec was good!

If you get a nice quiet bit of LS and find the right corp to run for you could rake it in with lv4s and burners in LS. No idea if such a place exists though Pirate

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#88 - 2015-10-27 16:21:14 UTC
A compilation of some tips and fits for Blitzing: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1knVqZEH8qFY0eT44nMEFwcKd3t4PbgcZeuv58SVUxsI/edit?usp=sharing

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#89 - 2015-10-27 16:29:35 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
Damn, and I thought making 100m / hr in low sec was good!

If you get a nice quiet bit of LS and find the right corp to run for you could rake it in with lv4s and burners in LS. No idea if such a place exists though Pirate



Only because I don't run low-sec missions anymore. But HOPHIB

That is all.

And yes, Burners in Hophib will give you over 23k lp per mission if I remember correctly. Although, its crap LP

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#90 - 2015-10-27 18:22:41 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
It actually looks like most people don't even *believe* that it's possible to do what some of us are doing, never mind actually running burners at all. A number are also running them extremely inefficiently, using multiple characters to run them and using anything from Marauders to some of the slowest battleships in the game to complete unnecessary normal lv4 missions. From observing the ships undocking in popular trade hubs a very *very* small portion of the mission running population is running at even remotely a good efficiency. We've had people that have been running missions for more years than my character has existed that are getting barely over 100mill/h on a good day for pete's sake.

My hat's off to you for excelling and setting a standard with mission running that I continue to aspire to. Big smile

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#91 - 2015-10-27 19:00:37 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Why do you feel it needs to be nerfed? Keep in mind that burners don't inject much isk into the economy, compared to nullsec ratting for example.

I think you misread my comment... I meant with how successful players are at running them, when is the inevitable nerf bat going to hammer them?

there are a few small very direct nerfs that could be made to reduce blitzing income, and not really hurt the general population.

personally I'd like to see a risk/reward balance pass, feel like there are a lot of little oddities in the system. That said risk/reward is more complex than high/low/null/wh. Imo you shouldn't compare afk ishtar ratting to lv4 blitzing. Where FW has multiple sub parts, offensive/defensive plexing, and missions. to call for nerfs to whole groups of sec bands is just overly simplistic and not useful.

CCP seems to have some ideas too https://www.themittani.com/features/huge-changes-coming-drifters-standings-and-more Shocked

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#92 - 2015-10-27 19:46:23 UTC
Quote:
- The Burner mission AI will eventually be adapted for every NPC ship in the game. That being said, CCP does expect some bugs and weird behaviors, and will keep an active eye on NPC behaviour. Burner missions might also be expanded to the Opportunity system as a part of the new player experience.
- CCP knows that there needs to be a greater variety of missions. There are no plans to make the missions safer for the mission runners. Hiding things behind locked acceleration gates is not good gameplay.


Those two points especially make me pretty excited.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#93 - 2015-10-27 20:05:33 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Those two points especially make me pretty excited.

The PvE ideas are all pretty exciting, to be honest. Tribute in particular sounds quite appealing...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#94 - 2015-10-27 20:21:31 UTC
Hmm actually this is probably the most important part of that whole article:
Quote:
Tracking player participation is a very big part of moving forward. From Data sites to Rogue Drones, Burner missions to highsec Incursions, CCP knows what content players are engaging in, and what players are being rewarded with. When confronted about highsec Incursions, for example, CCP Affinity stated that Sansha Incursions running forever does not make much sense. For now, they will likely bump up the payout for null and low Incursions. Rogue Drones and Data Sites are also being discussed due to remarkably poor player participation.


CCP knows that they can make a mechanic as engaging and 'fun' as they want but if it's not giving players worthwhile rewards no one is going to run them ever. And they can track this.

I feel this is where CCP struck the goldmine with burners. It's fun and engaging, a lot more so than semi afk pressing f1 every 30 seconds watching battleship after battleship slowly get chipped at and explode, while still paying out a very nice amount of both isk and LP. The LP that helps reduce the impact of the isk injection by acting as an isk sink. It gives a reason for players to have multiple ships in station and for them to be constantly switching from one to the other.

And yea the tribute system sound kinda nice actually. lot of potential there or some interesting rewards. 30 day police skins anyone? Bear

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#95 - 2015-10-27 20:54:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Ion Kirst
IMHO . . .

It seems like eventually everything in EVE reaches a peak and then fades, or it becomes common place. If it all becomes easy to do, then really what's the point.

Let me try to explain my thoughts.

Any player just starting out doing L1 missions is in awe. They progress to L2, find things a bit tougher. On thru L3 to L4s.

Eventually, L4s become boring, like Anize said, " pressing F1 every 30 sec" over and over.

Then Burner missions appeared. I lost a few ships early on, trying to find something to take them out.

Now, there's fits designed for specific Burner missions, and they now too have become easy. They just pay out a lot more, and take way less time.

Same with Incursions. Once EVE players figured out how to do it, it became very easy to do. Another cash cow.

There is a level of excitement that has returned to me in BLITZING L3 missions. That excitement just wasn't there in a Golem. (Everything takes f o r e v e r).

I'm not in it for the ISK anymore, I have more than enough. I want excitement, a challenge. Something to get this old heart pumping.

When I log on, with this character, it is most likely to run a couple of L4s, and then call it a night. I don't have time for much more. Now with L4 Burner missions, I don't have to be on EVE as much, if all I wanted to do is run a couple of missions.

So I'm sure those brief moments of excitement will last, but it will eventually fade.

Anize I don't want to take anything away from what you have done. It's not easy to keep track of all those numbers and then post them for people to analyze and question. Do they think we sit around making this stuff up? Good job.

-Kirst

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#96 - 2015-10-27 21:19:07 UTC
Ion Kirst wrote:

Now, there's fits designed for specific Burner missions, and they now too have become easy. They just pay out a lot more, and take way less time.

Well yes and no. One of the biggest differences, for me at least is that to run the burners as effectively as possible, there's so much more things to do and keep track of on a second by second basis compared to normal lv4s.

Some of it is very similar to blitzing Lv3s in a smaller ship in fact and some closer to PvP. I need to check my heat levels on all my modules, tank, guns, etc. so I don't burn em out. I need to keep an eye on my cap and cap inject when necessary. I need to make sure none of my modules deactivate and reactivate them when they do go offline. I need to keep range and react when a burner gets a lucky wrecking hits or a couple of wrecking hits in a row. Overheat the repper if that happens or else I go boom. Theres drone control/aggro (far higher than you will find in any other mission) you have to manage, constantly swapping out drones. most of the cruiser burners even have a lot of manual piloting involved, etc. so it's constant second to second activity.

Not all of these things are perhaps strictly required, but they make a huge difference in completion time. The same can not be said for normal Lv4s. Manual piloting/transversal matching might have a very minor impact but due to the sheer amount of EHP you have to grind through, OH has absolutely no advantage whatsoever.

So yea, a little bit of the excitement of PvP combined with getting a really nice payout.

Quote:

Anize I don't want to take anything away from what you have done. It's not easy to keep track of all those numbers and then post them for people to analyze and question. Do they think we sit around making this stuff up? Good job.

-Kirst

No probs, people like different things. So long as you've at least tried it as you have then I don't mind.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#97 - 2015-10-27 21:57:55 UTC
I tested what it would take to get my agent standings to -2 from a positive standing of around 3.5. 20 missions. I even had to decline not only multiple normal lv4 'blitz missions' but I also had to decline quite a few burners as well. I have to admit though that it was an impressive amount of bad missions in a row. Don't see it often but then I did have to decline multiple normal and burner missions(that dont show up).

It only took one mission that I had to use my mission pulling alt for to fix the standings and it wasn't even a 'good' mission, just any old scrappy mission works fine.

http://puu.sh/kZXL3/266a20b9df.jpg

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#98 - 2015-10-27 22:00:54 UTC
Completing storyline missions can make a huge difference.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#99 - 2015-10-27 22:21:47 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Completing storyline missions can make a huge difference.

For Faction standing definitely. Especially the combat ones. I think the really bigs ones are like 15% boost to faction standing.

For agent standings however storylines don't do anything. I do always keep one eye on it but I had to actively sabotage my process to actually get to -2. Just some more numbers for those interested Smile

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#100 - 2015-10-27 22:53:46 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Completing storyline missions can make a huge difference.

For Faction standing definitely. Especially the combat ones. I think the really bigs ones are like 15% boost to faction standing.

And corporation. Once you reach 9 standing or higher you really start to see the law of diminishing returns (even with the combat-orientated Storyline missions).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.