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Unbiased Criticisms for the Game
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#341 - 2015-10-26 17:08:36 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Dror wrote:
Hmm? I just explained how SP limits creativity, and there's a list of creative-friendly constraints in this thread already.Enjoy.


Dror, that just proves you aren't creative at all, and think the only content in game is what you can find in a 30 second google search.

Thanks for proving my point though

So, refute it.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#342 - 2015-10-26 17:10:15 UTC
Dror wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dror wrote:
creativity
Creativity is making the most of what you have.

As for the SP system, it creates aspiration. A reward earned is worth far more than something handed out to all and sundry.

Everything it adds only come because it originally removes them. You're literally saying that not being able to play the game to its fullest potential is helpful.

Also, that's an awful definition of creativity.
How so? To make the maximum use of limited resources (in this case SP, isk and choice of flyable hulls) requires creativity and/or knowledge.

SP doesn't remove anything, it only adds. It's the "equivalent" of RL career progression, as your skills increase so do your theoretical abilities. The system is set up to allow you, the player, to initially learn the basics and then hone your skills, both personal and ingame, as you climb the ship class ladder.

Career progression in the real world is basically the same, you start at the bottom, you learn the basics, you hone your skills, you learn more stuff and you work your way up the ladder.

Would you also say that career progression in the real world removes stuff from somebody starting at the bottom of the employment ladder?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Feyd's Survival Pack
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#343 - 2015-10-26 17:44:14 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dror wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dror wrote:
creativity
Creativity is making the most of what you have.

As for the SP system, it creates aspiration. A reward earned is worth far more than something handed out to all and sundry.

Everything it adds only come because it originally removes them. You're literally saying that not being able to play the game to its fullest potential is helpful.

Also, that's an awful definition of creativity.
How so? To make the maximum use of limited resources (in this case SP, isk and choice of flyable hulls) requires creativity and/or knowledge.

SP doesn't remove anything, it only adds. It's the "equivalent" of RL career progression, as your skills increase so do your theoretical abilities. The system is set up to allow you, the player, to initially learn the basics and then hone your skills, both personal and ingame, as you climb the ship class ladder.

Career progression in the real world is basically the same, you start at the bottom, you learn the basics, you hone your skills, you learn more stuff and you work your way up the ladder.

Would you also say that career progression in the real world removes stuff from somebody starting at the bottom of the employment ladder?

That might be the definition of ingenuity; but saying that's the definition of creativity is like saying that being given a rock produces more creativity than a full set of paints.

Thereof, SP definitely does "remove" options from the full spectrum of the game. Furthermore, there are very few RL jobs that are renowned for entertaining progression.. In fact, the job itself should be entertaining.. not "unlocking" more potential. There's probably not even a job that offers more from unlocks than from the experience, worth saying because "intrinsic motivation is much more powerful than extrinsic motivation (better for creativity, etc.)".

SP is an extrinsic motivator -- pay the sub, be rewarded with a skill queue and eventual options. Yet, CCP themselves are saying that intrinsic motivation (the openness of learning and mastery and exploration) is better than extrinsic motivation ("unlocking ships"). So, what now?

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#344 - 2015-10-26 17:56:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Dror wrote:
That might be the definition of ingenuity;
How do you separate the two? Ingenuity involves solving difficult problems, often in creative ways. They also happen to be synonyms for each other.

Quote:
but saying that's the definition of creativity is like saying that being given a rock produces more creativity than a full set of paints.
It's a definition, it's not the definition. Creativity is being able to create or invent something, creating viable tactics using what you have is being creative.

What you're suggesting is neither creative nor ingenious, you just want CCP to give stuff to you off the bat.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Bobb Bobbington
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#345 - 2015-10-26 18:01:20 UTC
Dror wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
Dror wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
*sigh*

The 'arbitrary gate' aren't arbitrary. The 'gates' are the entire game. They're the whole point of the game. They're why we play the game. Want me to say this again for the nth time in a row?

"SP is the whole game." Is that really worth posting, as if it refutes any of the posts on this very page?


Not just SP, but all of the difficulties in Eve. SP is only one of them, but a very needed one of them. And yes, it is worth posting, because evidently you can't accept the fact that the challenge is the fun part.

Now it's that setting a queue is challenging. The standards!

What do you have to lose from gaining x00M SP, per se?


SP incites meaningful, permanent choices. For instance, for some bass-ackward reason one of the first level V skills I trained was salvaging, even though I've only used it once or twice. I also trained mining skills, and have never used them in something like a year and a half. Normally, I'd never be able to get those SP back. Now, with the introduction of skill packets, this choice becomes rather obsolete, which is why I'm against skill packets. But it used to be a meaningful, permanent choice that was part of the core of Eve. Eve is all about permanent choices, and SP was a way of delivering it and rewarding players to become loyal and play longer. Like I've said, it's supposed to be a barrier to overcome, just like everything else in Eve.

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#346 - 2015-10-26 18:13:31 UTC
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
Dror wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
Dror wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
*sigh*

The 'arbitrary gate' aren't arbitrary. The 'gates' are the entire game. They're the whole point of the game. They're why we play the game. Want me to say this again for the nth time in a row?

"SP is the whole game." Is that really worth posting, as if it refutes any of the posts on this very page?


Not just SP, but all of the difficulties in Eve. SP is only one of them, but a very needed one of them. And yes, it is worth posting, because evidently you can't accept the fact that the challenge is the fun part.

Now it's that setting a queue is challenging. The standards!

What do you have to lose from gaining x00M SP, per se?


SP incites meaningful, permanent choices. For instance, for some bass-ackward reason one of the first level V skills I trained was salvaging, even though I've only used it once or twice. I also trained mining skills, and have never used them in something like a year and a half. Normally, I'd never be able to get those SP back. Now, with the introduction of skill packets, this choice becomes rather obsolete, which is why I'm against skill packets. But it used to be a meaningful, permanent choice that was part of the core of Eve. Eve is all about permanent choices, and SP was a way of delivering it and rewarding players to become loyal and play longer. Like I've said, it's supposed to be a barrier to overcome, just like everything else in Eve.

That's still implying that all barriers are some equally-interesting design, and that's just shallow. If a character limited themselves to frigates, they wouldn't necessarily have more fun than if they played whatever -- especially if the whatever actually improves their fleet comp or corp productivity. The same is true for having fewer ISK-making options. Fewer goods is fewer stations with goods, which is more travel, which is less interesting content.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Bobb Bobbington
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#347 - 2015-10-26 18:23:44 UTC
Exactly! While a character unlocks one thing, he has to wait to unlock another. That creates meaningful choices. It also incites excitement when you can "Finally fly a battleship!" etc etc. But at the same time it doesn't harm nubs, since training a base skill to level 4 takes one day, but to level 5 it takes an entire week, so new players can get caught up, while vets still have a small advantage in SP. You don't need perfect level 5 skills to perform well in a fleet, you can get by in a destroyer fleet with T1 guns, destroyer 3, and enough skills for a few tanking mods. You won't be optimal, but you'd still be operating at something like 70-75% of what a vet might in only a few day's training.

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#348 - 2015-10-26 18:31:19 UTC
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
Exactly! While a character unlocks one thing, he has to wait to unlock another. That creates meaningful choices. It also incites excitement when you can "Finally fly a battleship!" etc etc. But at the same time it doesn't harm nubs, since training a base skill to level 4 takes one day, but to level 5 it takes an entire week, so new players can get caught up, while vets still have a small advantage in SP. You don't need perfect level 5 skills to perform well in a fleet, you can get by in a destroyer fleet with T1 guns, destroyer 3, and enough skills for a few tanking mods. You won't be optimal, but you'd still be operating at something like 70-75% of what a vet might in only a few day's training.

Exactly, what? There's less content?

All of that downplays how much training there is for diversity. The game is advertised for diversity. Checkmate.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Bobb Bobbington
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#349 - 2015-10-26 18:43:45 UTC
Dror wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
Exactly! While a character unlocks one thing, he has to wait to unlock another. That creates meaningful choices. It also incites excitement when you can "Finally fly a battleship!" etc etc. But at the same time it doesn't harm nubs, since training a base skill to level 4 takes one day, but to level 5 it takes an entire week, so new players can get caught up, while vets still have a small advantage in SP. You don't need perfect level 5 skills to perform well in a fleet, you can get by in a destroyer fleet with T1 guns, destroyer 3, and enough skills for a few tanking mods. You won't be optimal, but you'd still be operating at something like 70-75% of what a vet might in only a few day's training.

Exactly, what? There's less content?

All of that downplays how much training there is for diversity. The game is advertised for diversity. Checkmate.


Heh, you're funny. You know that? You should do stand up comedy. Eve online is advertised as being hard, as being a challenge. It's advertised as 'lawless', be a scammer, or a pirate, go harvest player's tears CCP doesn't care. Eve's advertised as being a hard place to live in. It has never advertised being easy, or being "diverse" (aka do whatever you want, when you want).

Queen to B-4 Big smile See I can make chess references too Cool

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#350 - 2015-10-26 18:47:53 UTC
Dror wrote:
So, refute it.


Your selective attention is acting up again. You should see a doctor about that.

Have you been reading this thread?
Odie McCracken
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#351 - 2015-10-26 19:00:28 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Dror wrote:
So, refute it.


Your selective attention is acting up again. You should see a doctor about that.

Have you been reading this thread?


The reading definitely seems selective. Then he'll quote something he said earlier in the thread like that will make it suddenly relevant.

It's fun to watch in a way. It's like he's said that water isn't wet and it's up to us to prove that it is.
LancashireUK
R.O.S.A.
#352 - 2015-10-26 19:05:31 UTC  |  Edited by: LancashireUK
Dror wrote:
.....It was true for SWG. SP's limits are incredibly awful.


SWG failed due to poorly implemented changes.

talkGEEK || The Volition Cult
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#353 - 2015-10-26 19:28:50 UTC
Odie McCracken wrote:
The reading definitely seems selective. Then he'll quote something he said earlier in the thread like that will make it suddenly relevant.

It's fun to watch in a way. It's like he's said that water isn't wet and it's up to us to prove that it is.


In the last one of these threads he made I quoted CCP Falcon's explanation of why the NPE is so difficult and he called what Falcon said wrong.

That was amusing.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#354 - 2015-10-26 21:52:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Odie McCracken wrote:
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Your selective attention is acting up again. You should see a doctor about that.

Have you been reading this thread?


The reading definitely seems selective.
Indeed it does, he's not interested in what anybody else has to say unless he can dispute it (poorly for the most part) or it agrees with his uninformed opinions.

Quote:
Then he'll quote something he said earlier in the thread like that will make it suddenly relevant.
Self referential quotes of himself saying "look what I wrote, I'm right and you're not" shows just how poor his hand really is. Any external references he cites are belittled by his lack of understanding the material or the improper use of it when applied to a game whose spirit harks back to when gaming was challenging and not so mainstream.

Quote:
It's fun to watch in a way. It's like he's said that water isn't wet and it's up to us to prove that it is.
That depends on what state the water is in Twisted

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#355 - 2015-10-26 22:08:18 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Self referential quotes of himself saying "look what I wrote, I'm right and you're not" shows just how poor his hand really is. Any external references he cites are belittled by his lack of understanding the material or the improper use of it when applied to a game whose spirit harks back to when gaming was challenging and not so mainstream.


But Jonah, he read a few paragraphs in an article on game design. Why wouldn't that mean he knows more than the company who has designed and run the game for 10+ years?
Jenshae Chiroptera
#356 - 2015-10-26 22:31:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
My little amusement is that he is holding up games with levelling systems. Systems in which there is severe level range restrictions with regards to who you can meaningfully play with.

Mean while, we have this SP system where a week old new player can be useful in even the greatest of battles. That they are new and "low value" makes them intrinsically valuable. They can scout ahead with no implants or cheap ones, in cheap ships, if they join an established group they can have their assets continuously replaced without being a burden and learning how to play in the process.
(Hae to love those newbies who try e-war frigates and become really exceptional e-war pilots later on)

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#357 - 2015-10-26 23:19:18 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
My little amusement is that he is holding up games with levelling systems. Systems in which there is severe level range restrictions with regards to who you can meaningfully play with.

Mean while, we have this SP system where a week old new player can be useful in even the greatest of battles. That they are new and "low value" makes them intrinsically valuable. They can scout ahead with no implants or cheap ones, in cheap ships, if they join an established group they can have their assets continuously replaced without being a burden and learning how to play in the process.
(Hae to love those newbies who try e-war frigates and become really exceptional e-war pilots later on)
Yep.

Blood thirsty newbies and low SP characters en-masse in cheap ships are scarily effective, especially if at least one of them has a clue; at least one major nullsec corp started that way.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
ficr
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#358 - 2015-10-26 23:49:02 UTC
helana Tsero wrote:

Also EvE has more stuff to do than pretty much any game you could name... however finding that content is harder than the majority of games


QFT
THIS is the FAQ to new player's "What do I do now?" gripe. Once you find that content it's like the Wizard of Oz changing from black and white to color.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#359 - 2015-10-27 00:44:53 UTC
It is only hard to find if your iq is closse is close to a rock and you have never heard of the internet

Delt0r Garsk
***** N Giggles
Likes received: 463

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#360 - 2015-10-27 03:30:44 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:


The SP system creates aspiration, sitting in your dream ships is the reward for the work you put in getting there; a reward earned is worth far more than something handed out to all and sundry.


I'd suggest it creates delusion - it's not until you sit in your dream ship that you realize the faults and failures in your training plan