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Unbiased Criticisms for the Game

Author
Thierry Orlenard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#281 - 2015-10-25 22:33:47 UTC
Dror wrote:
Newbies flying capitals is the best possibility for larger-scale engagements.



Madman or troll? You be the judge, dear reader.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#282 - 2015-10-25 22:36:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Dror wrote:
... Newbies aren't instigating sov in frigates either. ..Pretty simple correlation with low amounts of action.
SOV + newbies?
What you want will benefit veterans more and shut out newbies even more so than currently.

Example:
You probably have this fantasy that you and your three friends who have done a few missions together or something, would be able to jump into carriers and dreadnaughts then go claim a Null Sec system.
While you are merrily bashing away at some POS or some such, along would come a bunch of T1 cruisers, speed tank the dreadnaughts, kill the drones and then proceed to mop the floor with you. Then your bunch would go crying back to High Sec or quit.

EVE is about composition and execution.
Not the ships you fly.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#283 - 2015-10-25 23:17:15 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
How the **** can a newbie fly a cap when they don't even know what it does or afford one? it starts at 2B isk. So what is next. Get rid of isk. You don't even follow your own bloody game theory crap.

Can you please go and play star citizen or elite instead? Please.

Seems the relevant question is why they would. They probably wouldn't up through some point, but that's fine. What they could do is more effectively make ISK and play the game. Some sources would say that's a trend for effectiveness, which is correlative with enjoyment and coming back for more. The cool part about an open door is that if what's on the other side is really cool, it gets attention.

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Dror wrote:
... Newbies aren't instigating sov in frigates either. ..Pretty simple correlation with low amounts of action.
SOV + newbies?
What you want will benefit veterans more and shut out newbies even more so than currently.

Example:
You probably have this fantasy that you and your three friends who have done a few missions together or something, would be able to jump into carriers and dreadnaughts then go claim a Null Sec system.
While you are merrily bashing away at some POS or some such, along would come a bunch of T1 cruisers, speed tank the dreadnaughts, kill the drones and then proceed to mop the floor with you. Then your bunch would go crying back to High Sec or quit.

EVE is about composition and execution.
Not the ships you fly.

SP limits politics, though, doesn't it? It limits strategy?

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#284 - 2015-10-26 00:30:13 UTC
Dror wrote:
SP limits politics, though, doesn't it? It limits strategy?
No, Politics are purely interpersonal and hold no bearing on SP. SP promotes strategy by giving limitations to work around.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#285 - 2015-10-26 01:29:31 UTC
Dror wrote:
In other words, "*strawman*".

Newbies aren't instigating sov in frigates either. ..Pretty simple correlation with low amounts of action.


Dror-y boy, are you ever going to respond to me? Pretty please? I just want to talk to you, and you just ignore me. My feelings are hurt. Please talk to me!

Your trolling and ability to start the same thread over and over is fun!
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#286 - 2015-10-26 01:55:03 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Dror wrote:
SP limits politics, though, doesn't it? It limits strategy?
No, Politics are purely interpersonal and hold no bearing on SP. SP promotes strategy by giving limitations to work around.

Everything's effected by SP.

Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Dror wrote:
In other words, "*strawman*".

Newbies aren't instigating sov in frigates either. ..Pretty simple correlation with low amounts of action.


Dror-y boy, are you ever going to respond to me? Pretty please? I just want to talk to you, and you just ignore me. My feelings are hurt. Please talk to me!

Your trolling and ability to start the same thread over and over is fun!

Can you provide a worst case scenario that doesn't have to do with rep or sec status?

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#287 - 2015-10-26 02:11:38 UTC
Dror wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Dror wrote:
SP limits politics, though, doesn't it? It limits strategy?
No, Politics are purely interpersonal and hold no bearing on SP. SP promotes strategy by giving limitations to work around.

Everything's effected by SP.
No, social aspects are effected by the people engaging socially. SP doesn't dictate this.
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#288 - 2015-10-26 02:21:42 UTC
Dror wrote:

All of these are, basically, literally not playing the game, where they could be actually strategizing and engaging. You're just suggesting to not play the game wherever the newbies come upon something more intense than their T1s. PS, that's no fair playing field (as is mentioned to increase interest and game loyalty.. which arguably lessens without the fairness).

The point of a game without SP is that there's no SP. Is that obvious? "Having no BS 'skills'" is literally a worthless criticism.

The claims about SP increasing character investment/involvement (ownership and social identity) are baseless. The thread discussion already mentions how it decreases them.



no that is the game

but feel free to mangle the english/hipster language in your desperate attempt at self-justification
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#289 - 2015-10-26 02:42:19 UTC
Dror wrote:
Newbies flying capitals is the best possibility for larger-scale engagements.


this is just nonsense

if you want newbies - whoever they are - to be involved in large scales engagements then everyone would be restricted to flying frigates (with very restricted gear) and there would be no campaign development (i.e SP)
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#290 - 2015-10-26 02:50:45 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
How the **** can a newbie fly a cap when they don't even know what it does or afford one?


oh come now

surely you know that capital ships in large scale actions are simple point and click

there is no long term planning - or supporting players - or resource management

the titan pilot merely dons a flying helmet and goggles and takes to the skies like a god

there was no moment when they nearly went bankrupt - or wet themselves going in low sec - or rigged their fighting ship to go mining to get the extra bit of dosh - no angry words in local at some slight or antoher

in fact there is no game

just the barest semblance of a theory based on some phone ap or another
Bobb Bobbington
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#291 - 2015-10-26 02:59:44 UTC
Thierry Orlenard wrote:
Dror wrote:
Newbies flying capitals is the best possibility for larger-scale engagements.



Madman or troll? You be the judge, dear reader.


What if he's the 'mad troller', sort of like the mad hatter in Alice in Wonderland except he goes around trolling forums?

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.

Aoife Fraoch
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#292 - 2015-10-26 03:02:52 UTC
Dror wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
How the **** can a newbie fly a cap when they don't even know what it does or afford one? it starts at 2B isk. So what is next. Get rid of isk. You don't even follow your own bloody game theory crap.

Can you please go and play star citizen or elite instead? Please.

Seems the relevant question is why they would. They probably wouldn't up through some point, but that's fine. What they could do is more effectively make ISK and play the game. Some sources would say that's a trend for effectiveness, which is correlative with enjoyment and coming back for more. The cool part about an open door is that if what's on the other side is really cool, it gets attention.

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Dror wrote:
... Newbies aren't instigating sov in frigates either. ..Pretty simple correlation with low amounts of action.
SOV + newbies?
What you want will benefit veterans more and shut out newbies even more so than currently.

Example:
You probably have this fantasy that you and your three friends who have done a few missions together or something, would be able to jump into carriers and dreadnaughts then go claim a Null Sec system.
While you are merrily bashing away at some POS or some such, along would come a bunch of T1 cruisers, speed tank the dreadnaughts, kill the drones and then proceed to mop the floor with you. Then your bunch would go crying back to High Sec or quit.

EVE is about composition and execution.
Not the ships you fly.

SP limits politics, though, doesn't it? It limits strategy?


Brave Newbies et al.

Your argument is invalid.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#293 - 2015-10-26 03:07:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Dror wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Dror wrote:
SP limits politics, though, doesn't it? It limits strategy?
No, Politics are purely interpersonal and hold no bearing on SP. SP promotes strategy by giving limitations to work around.

Everything's effected by SP.

Not at all.

There are a lot of things in the game that come down solely to your skills as a person and particularly your organisational, interpersonal, cognitive and other skills.

Being a Logistics Director has almost nothing to do with skillpoints and much more the ability to organise, schedule and manage other people and information.

Being a Diplomat has much more to do with cognitive and interpersonal skills than it does with any skillbook.

Being a good educator in the game has much more to do with organisational and communication skills than what skillpoints your character has.

There are many more examples where roles and functions within the game depend more on the life skills of the player than they do on the skillpoints of the character.

Skillpoints provide flexibility for the character at the immediate (tactical) gameplay level. The real game is played at the meta level (operational and strategic), where the most successful players have the RL skills to achieve their goals, no matter which character they are using at the time.
Bobb Bobbington
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#294 - 2015-10-26 03:13:15 UTC
You know what'd be really funny? If he started asking for ships not to be destroyed upon death.

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.

Aoife Fraoch
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#295 - 2015-10-26 03:17:53 UTC
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
You know what'd be really funny? If he started asking for ships not to be destroyed upon death.


I think that will be his next thread. Followed by another asking that gated complexes enforce even fleet numbers.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#296 - 2015-10-26 03:40:18 UTC
I'm going to have to give this one pretty low marks I'm afraid. Far too much text for too little outrage and controversy.

Trolling is a fine art, and usually more effective when the game industry as a whole... and this particular very successful twelve year old game... show how incorrect your assertions are at a glance.

Keep at it though, you have potential. Less text but more outrageous assertion that you're speaking facts, rather than half thought out game design 101 theory... that should be your mantra.

And try not to be so obvious about it next time.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#297 - 2015-10-26 04:15:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Cidanel Afuran
Dror wrote:
Can you provide a worst case scenario that doesn't have to do with rep or sec status?


I've already told you, oh sweet Dror of mine.

Vets who've played for years will quit, because we don't want to be carebears in space like yourself. EVE would do a 180 degree flip from being what it is to a themepark WoW in space game, causing the subscribers who have make it one of the highest rated MMOs in existence for over a decade into just another run of the mill game. It would ruin what makes EVE, EVE.

For the sixth time in this thread, can you respond to this champ?

Actions have consequences. We like that. I can't blindly re-roll a new character and have the same skills. My reputation is tied to my name, and I have to live with my actions. We like that also. If you remove time-based SPs, reputation is suddenly meaningless, as anyone can re-roll a new character at any time. The entire social-political landscape of EVE disappears overnight.

Look forward to how you dodge this point for the sixth time, Dror-y boy.

Rep and sec status are 90% of the game. Asking to ignore rep or sec status in EVE the same as asking someone to ignore the fact they have to shoot guns in counterstrike....Have you even played EVE, Mr. Dror McTrollingSon?
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#298 - 2015-10-26 05:01:49 UTC
where the fck is @tipia when you need him!!!

@OP, dude, just quit, all of us know you don't like EvE and we don't like you either. bye o7

Just Add Water

Chopper Rollins
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#299 - 2015-10-26 05:36:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Chopper Rollins
Dror wrote:

Realistic paintings aren't about subjective ideas of how reality functions. They follow rules and guidelines for the truth. Come. It's a great place.


This is one of the places Dror runs to under pressure, whacky analogies. Then when that gets strained by sense, it's back to game design 101 extracts mixed with incoherent, stilted high school debating.
The one place he won't run to is speaking from an informed point of view. A goon, a PL fc, a 5yr hisec mission running miner, any of these could sound informed and have opinions. It's pretty clear we're dealing with someone who hasn't played EvE.


edit: realistic paintings are problem solving exercises, which have been performed better by machines for over a century, allowing distortions in art beyond the bland goal of realism. Truth is nothing to do with realism, since problem solving is a less arbitrary decision making process than finding 'truth'. Thanks for coming, watching you get destroyed is getting a bit old now.

Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.

Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#300 - 2015-10-26 07:06:42 UTC
How is this thread not locked yet?

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.