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The Archon Carrier, is it worth it?
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Valea Silpha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2012-01-05 18:52:20 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
All this talk about insuring your carrier and faction BS - that's totally silly talk unless you intend to neglect basic due diligence towards your personal safety. You have to remember that PVE ships don't pop that often and if your insurance expires you just wasted that ISK. And your insurance almost certainly will expire.

I'm really rather flabbergasted at how risk averse your average 0.0 denizen appears to be when compared to your average low sec denizen. People in low sec don't seem to blink over taking carriers into L5s and pimped out faction BS's into L4s and pimped out deadspace fit bombers into FW missions. And in a lot of ways the population density of hostiles in low sec is higher than that of 0.0.

-Liang


This all makes perfect sense...
...if that carrier is doing only PvE.

Carriers are multi-purpose. It's easy -- trivial, even -- to refit them from PvP to PvE at a moment's notice. And if you're regularly using that carrier for the benefit of your corporation or alliance, there's going to be enough risk to justify insuring it. If you can then leverage that insurance premium into making a profit, then so much the better.

I think you're missing the larger picture, Liang. People can use ships for more than one thing...Roll


They can use ships for more than one thing, but its not the best idea. PvE ships are your bread and butter. They buy your ammo, your fuel, you everything. You use them conservatively.

If you refit your PvE archon to pvp and it goes pop, chances are that you just lost the ship that makes you the money that you and your corp rely on.

Despite the general level of idiocy in eve, I figured that most people by now had worked out that shitting where you eat is ********. If you wanna pewpew, get a specific ship to pew pew in, so that when that ship goes pop (and it will, it is dead from the second it undocks) you aren't suddenly adrift with no easy way to get back on the horse.

It's just common sense.

You don't take your company car into a demolition derby, for example. It may be cheaper for the first time you take it out, because you only need one ship (or car) but once you've had your fun and thing explode you are left with no way to get into the next event.
Aamrr
#22 - 2012-01-05 19:12:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Aamrr
If a ship is so vital that you absolutely cannot be without it for even a moment, one would think that you'd have a replacement for it. And since THAT one doesn't have to be insured, there's no cost for having it in reserve.

And for the rest of us that apparently can deal with having to wait a few hours while we get a replacement, we'll content ourselves with the fact that our insurance premium paid more than the cost of a T1 cruiser (T3's) or T1 battleship (pirate battleship).

Edit: And if you can't afford a duplicate, you obviously shouldn't be flying it in the first place -- don't fly what you can't afford to lose (or replace).
Justin Cody
War Firm
#23 - 2012-01-05 20:08:24 UTC
Kiryu Oranos wrote:
Hey guys,
I'm fully trained for a carrier, and I was just wondering if its worth spending 800m + 150 to fit it, I would use it for PvE and Armor triage.
-Kiryu


It is probably worth spending more than 150M to fit it. But yes it is worth it. Let me know if you plan on moving down to low sec solitude. We have lots of people here who would like to help you with your fits.
AstarothPrime
Pecunia Infinita
#24 - 2012-01-05 21:38:30 UTC
Kaanchana wrote:
AstarothPrime wrote:
King Rothgar wrote:
I once tackled and killed a thanny in a low sec belt with my revelation. That is all.Lol


You make it sound like its you look at carrier in your noobship and it explodes...

It aint like this. Semi well fit archon with cap repper and cap recharge rigs has around 4000 DPS perma tank and needs 4-5 large neuts to hurt its cap down to the point where he actually starts to feel the neuting.

If you solo popped carrier with subcap - he was definitely floating somewhere afk.
But then again - youll never see solo attacks on carriers - fleets of 20 are more likely

Regards

I.


I am pretty sure revelation is not a sub cap. Roll

And many ratting carrier killmails show them to have LAR fitted..



My bad about revelation 101% - kinda dislexic reading... nevertheless - if you solo tackled and popped a carrier in a dread it needed large balls and luck to execute
Im more afraid of SBs packing a cyno and titan within 10ish ly ready to bridge a blob of eagerbeavers on me...

Fitting LAR on carrier is actually - WTF moment...

For the bloke saying there is no "XLAR" there is CAPITAL LAR which is just pure awesome...

I.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#25 - 2012-01-05 21:46:06 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
All this talk about insuring your carrier and faction BS - that's totally silly talk unless you intend to neglect basic due diligence towards your personal safety. You have to remember that PVE ships don't pop that often and if your insurance expires you just wasted that ISK. And your insurance almost certainly will expire.

I'm really rather flabbergasted at how risk averse your average 0.0 denizen appears to be when compared to your average low sec denizen. People in low sec don't seem to blink over taking carriers into L5s and pimped out faction BS's into L4s and pimped out deadspace fit bombers into FW missions. And in a lot of ways the population density of hostiles in low sec is higher than that of 0.0.

-Liang


This all makes perfect sense...
...if that carrier is doing only PvE.

Carriers are multi-purpose. It's easy -- trivial, even -- to refit them from PvP to PvE at a moment's notice. And if you're regularly using that carrier for the benefit of your corporation or alliance, there's going to be enough risk to justify insuring it. If you can then leverage that insurance premium into making a profit, then so much the better.

I think you're missing the larger picture, Liang. People can use ships for more than one thing...Roll


Don't PVP in your PVE ship. Buy another carrier.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
AstarothPrime
Pecunia Infinita
#26 - 2012-01-05 21:46:37 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
All this talk about insuring your carrier and faction BS - that's totally silly talk unless you intend to neglect basic due diligence towards your personal safety. You have to remember that PVE ships don't pop that often and if your insurance expires you just wasted that ISK. And your insurance almost certainly will expire.
-Liang



If we are talking about mandatory non insured 30% ship its:

250M upon carrier popping
25M upon faction BS popping

Provided they pretty much cost the same id rather lose cap fit 1.5B isk archon then faction fit 1.5B isk nightmare ;)

I.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#27 - 2012-01-05 21:52:43 UTC
My point was that insuring a PVE ship is silly since it just isn't going to pop that often - whether you're in high sec, low sec, or 0.0. Hell, you can even PVE in hostile 0.0 for months at a time without losing a ship.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#28 - 2012-01-05 22:30:32 UTC
AstarothPrime wrote:
King Rothgar wrote:
I once tackled and killed a thanny in a low sec belt with my revelation. That is all.Lol


You make it sound like its you look at carrier in your noobship and it explodes...

It aint like this. Semi well fit archon with cap repper and cap recharge rigs has around 4000 DPS perma tank and needs 4-5 large neuts to hurt its cap down to the point where he actually starts to feel the neuting.

If you solo popped carrier with subcap - he was definitely floating somewhere afk.
But then again - youll never see solo attacks on carriers - fleets of 20 are more likely

Regards

I.


I'm in the mood to better explain that kill now. I and a buddy found a carrier "protecting" an orca and about 5-6 covetors in a low sec belt. It was only the two of us and we really wanted to give it a go, so we did. We used my revelation and his carrier (archon I think). The orca and most of the covetors got away, but I was able to tackle the thanny before it warped off while my buddy took out one or two sluggish miners. The thanny was a complete **** fit obviously else we wouldn't have been able to kill it with just one dread and a carrier.

Before he went down though, the miners went to their POS and swapped into some of the worst fit ships I've seen in all my time playing this game and we obviously wiped them out too. Only time I've ever alpha'd a drake. He was fit with no tank and loads of ECM. Yes, he attempted to ECM my sieged revelation. Obviously it didn't work. That corp was full of all kinds of special.Lol

This took place about 2 years ago and the corp I was in is now defunct and thus so is the corp kb. It is on battleclinic but I really can't be bothered to sift through months of km's trying to find it, especially since there isn't any way to jump to specific pages on the kill list, have to move 3 pages at a time or something along those lines.What?

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2012-01-05 23:38:19 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
All this talk about insuring your carrier and faction BS - that's totally silly talk unless you intend to neglect basic due diligence towards your personal safety. You have to remember that PVE ships don't pop that often and if your insurance expires you just wasted that ISK. And your insurance almost certainly will expire.

I'm really rather flabbergasted at how risk averse your average 0.0 denizen appears to be when compared to your average low sec denizen. People in low sec don't seem to blink over taking carriers into L5s and pimped out faction BS's into L4s and pimped out deadspace fit bombers into FW missions. And in a lot of ways the population density of hostiles in low sec is higher than that of 0.0.

-Liang


This all makes perfect sense...
...if that carrier is doing only PvE.

Carriers are multi-purpose. It's easy -- trivial, even -- to refit them from PvP to PvE at a moment's notice. And if you're regularly using that carrier for the benefit of your corporation or alliance, there's going to be enough risk to justify insuring it. If you can then leverage that insurance premium into making a profit, then so much the better.

I think you're missing the larger picture, Liang. People can use ships for more than one thing...Roll

Exactly, Aamrr. Carriers (especially those flown in small capital gangs) can flip fittings at a moment's notice (R&K actually had carriers swapping between triage and Pantheon fittings on the fly during one recent fight, resulting in the primed carrier having very high Pantheon-esque resists while being repped by the other carrier who was triaged). So, switching the same hull from PvE to PvP to back again on the fly would be not at all unexpected (think of getting jumped while double escalating a C5 anom, for instance).
Leonova Klystra
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-01-05 23:58:25 UTC
AstarothPrime wrote:

* no site / rat can break its tank no matter how wrong u fit it


http://assetsus2.wordansassets.com/wordansfiles/images/2011/3/8/69466/69466_340.jpg?1299636737
Aamrr
#31 - 2012-01-06 00:00:46 UTC
Leonova Klystra wrote:
A thoroughly entertaining post.


+1 to you, good sir. +1.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#32 - 2012-01-06 00:05:46 UTC
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui wrote:
Aamrr wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
All this talk about insuring your carrier and faction BS - that's totally silly talk unless you intend to neglect basic due diligence towards your personal safety. You have to remember that PVE ships don't pop that often and if your insurance expires you just wasted that ISK. And your insurance almost certainly will expire.

I'm really rather flabbergasted at how risk averse your average 0.0 denizen appears to be when compared to your average low sec denizen. People in low sec don't seem to blink over taking carriers into L5s and pimped out faction BS's into L4s and pimped out deadspace fit bombers into FW missions. And in a lot of ways the population density of hostiles in low sec is higher than that of 0.0.

-Liang


This all makes perfect sense...
...if that carrier is doing only PvE.

Carriers are multi-purpose. It's easy -- trivial, even -- to refit them from PvP to PvE at a moment's notice. And if you're regularly using that carrier for the benefit of your corporation or alliance, there's going to be enough risk to justify insuring it. If you can then leverage that insurance premium into making a profit, then so much the better.

I think you're missing the larger picture, Liang. People can use ships for more than one thing...Roll

Exactly, Aamrr. Carriers (especially those flown in small capital gangs) can flip fittings at a moment's notice (R&K actually had carriers swapping between triage and Pantheon fittings on the fly during one recent fight, resulting in the primed carrier having very high Pantheon-esque resists while being repped by the other carrier who was triaged). So, switching the same hull from PvE to PvP to back again on the fly would be not at all unexpected (think of getting jumped while double escalating a C5 anom, for instance).


This doesn't really change the fact that you should separate out your intended PVP ships from your intended PVE ships. Having 2 (or even more) carriers lets you grab the right one fitted for the job right now and get in the fight quicker and with less risk of ******* up your fit on accident.

Also, it can be cheaper than constantly swapping out rigs (if you've got some gimicky setup).

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Admiral Pelleon
White Shadow Imperium
#33 - 2012-01-06 01:24:38 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
My point was that insuring a PVE ship is silly since it just isn't going to pop that often - whether you're in high sec, low sec, or 0.0. Hell, you can even PVE in hostile 0.0 for months at a time without losing a ship.

-Liang


Yep.

Last year during the GREAT NORTHERN WAR we jumped a carrier full of T3's into Delve and had a field day for over a month.

Those who cannot keep up will be left behind, to watch from a distance. And those who stand in our way will not watch at all.
Aamrr
#34 - 2012-01-06 08:08:09 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
This doesn't really change the fact that you should separate out your intended PVP ships from your intended PVE ships. Having 2 (or even more) carriers lets you grab the right one fitted for the job right now and get in the fight quicker and with less risk of ******* up your fit on accident.

Also, it can be cheaper than constantly swapping out rigs (if you've got some gimicky setup).

-Liang


I'm sorry. That's a non-argument. If you've been playing Eve long enough to skill into and purchase a carrier, you should be able to fit your ship properly. There's saved fittings, there's XML imports, there's all variety of tools to automate this stuff, even if your brain is too comotose to "drag module to slot. drag next module to slot."

If a ship is insured, rigs are really the ONLY reason you should be switching to another ship. And who uses anything but CCCs on their carriers anyway?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#35 - 2012-01-06 08:12:01 UTC
Aamrr wrote:

I'm sorry. That's a non-argument. If you've been playing Eve long enough to skill into and purchase a carrier, you should be able to fit your ship properly. There's saved fittings, there's XML imports, there's all variety of tools to automate this stuff, even if your brain is too comotose to "drag module to slot. drag next module to slot."

If a ship is insured, rigs are really the ONLY reason you should be switching to another ship. And who uses anything but CCCs on their carriers anyway?


If you've been playing Eve long enough to skill into a carrier, you should be able to buy multiple carriers. Don't intentionally PVP in your PVE ship. Its ******* stupid.

-Liang

Ed: Also... :)

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#36 - 2012-01-06 08:23:17 UTC
Liang is right on mixing pvp and pve ships. Years ago when I bought my first carrier, I immediately started running lvl5's so I could buy a second. The original carrier remained a pve only ship while the second one was used for pvp. I have maintained this setup ever since. Sure a triage archon and a pve archon both use CCC rigs, so I wouldn't lose anything if I just swapped saved fits. But it is far simpler to have two ships. You never have to worry about something glitching in the refit or screwing up and forgetting to put stront in it. Both are always ready to go as you need them fitted. And lets face it, if you're doing pve in a carrier, you should be rolling in isk very quickly.

Also, don't insure your pve ships ffs. What the hell. I'll admit I've lost a few over the years but keeping them insured would cost 10x as much as just taking the full loss when it happens.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Death Toll007
Perkone
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-01-06 08:26:37 UTC
OP: No it is not worth it.

From the sounds of your post you have been skilling and saving for this archon for some time. If you can afford the loss, then by all means, PvE in it.

Ultimately the Carrier is an excellent platform for either, but like all ships will have a learning curve. The learning curve for carriers is more expensive than most.

Now if your corporation has several capital capable pilots, or you are willing to move to a corporation with capital capable pilots, feel free to learn, would recommend first doing so on SISI... great way to have a cheap learning curve.

Ultimately it is your call.

-DT
Aamrr
#38 - 2012-01-06 08:27:10 UTC
You keep saying that, but you've got no quantitative argument to back it up. There's a clear and definite benefit for doing so -- you benefit from your insurance premium while participating in both PvE and PvP -- and there's absolutely no drawback.

If you've got a spare carrier as you suggest, then you won't be inconvenienced if you lose the first, no matter whether it was lost in PvE or PvP. Swap the modules in station, leave the stuff you don't need in the hangar, and you've got nothing more to lose than what you'd normally bring out -- except that now, you get an insurance payout if you're unfortunate enough to lose a ship during PvE activities.

"It's stupid" isn't an argument. "You get X benefit during Y activity at no additional Z cost" is an argument. Numbers, circumstantial advantages...all of these things are arguments. It seems like you've gotten rather out of practice in your hiatus. You could benefit from some review. And courtesy, for that matter.
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#39 - 2012-01-06 09:32:45 UTC
Swapping fits on a regular basis is asking for trouble. I don't know of anyone in game who has done so for any significant length of time that hasn't made a fatal error in doing so. It also takes a few minutes, even with the fits saved. Additionally, do not insure capitals, pve or pvp unless you are planning to lose it (ie cyno bait carrier). It just isn't cost effective. Thus there is no insurance advantage. I've never lost a pve carrier and I don't lose pvp carriers often enough to bother insuring those either.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Ultim8Evil
War Eagle Fleet
Goonswarm Federation
#40 - 2012-01-06 11:38:10 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
If you've been playing Eve long enough to skill into a carrier, you should be able to buy multiple carriers. Don't intentionally PVP in your PVE ship. Its ******* stupid.

-Liang

Ed: Also... :)


Why is no-one listening to this person?

Follow me on Twitter for literally no good reason @TheUltim8Evil
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