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Unbiased Criticisms for the Game
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Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#241 - 2015-10-25 02:21:33 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Dror wrote:
Can you list a reason why there should be an arbitrary gate? Could you, unless specifying how it's relevant, exclude other games? Can you drop the pretense.. maybe explain how it seems that giving veterans x00M SP, relatively speaking, is a problem for them?
Veteran groups can afford better ships, repeatedly.

After you remove skill points, which limits veterans as much as newbies (the sweet spot for skill points, time and so forth is in the middle) and realise that you have crushed new players by allowing veterans to fly anything - will you then call for the removal of ISK?

To highlight why you are deluded, I repeat, go and experience the test server.


To be honest, EVE should be balanced acoording to test server data where everyone has free access to perfect everything. THEN it should be balanced for ISK.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#242 - 2015-10-25 02:23:26 UTC
Scuzzy Logic wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Dror wrote:
Can you list a reason why there should be an arbitrary gate? Could you, unless specifying how it's relevant, exclude other games? Can you drop the pretense.. maybe explain how it seems that giving veterans x00M SP, relatively speaking, is a problem for them?
Veteran groups can afford better ships, repeatedly.

After you remove skill points, which limits veterans as much as newbies (the sweet spot for skill points, time and so forth is in the middle) and realise that you have crushed new players by allowing veterans to fly anything - will you then call for the removal of ISK?

To highlight why you are deluded, I repeat, go and experience the test server.


To be honest, EVE should be balanced acoording to test server data where everyone has free access to perfect everything. THEN it should be balanced for ISK.

Not sure if obvious, but Sisi has limited SP.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Bobb Bobbington
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#243 - 2015-10-25 02:35:46 UTC
Dror wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
As I've said before, it's the ENTIRE GAME! To overcome the obstacles! That's its ENTIRE NICHE.

Surely, it's within realization that the best method of getting beyond SP is just paying for it?


Well. You officially reached 0/10 on the troll meter. Either that, or simply can't realize that some people relish a challenge, not the easy way out of buying a toon.

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#244 - 2015-10-25 02:38:57 UTC
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
Dror wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
As I've said before, it's the ENTIRE GAME! To overcome the obstacles! That's its ENTIRE NICHE.

Surely, it's within realization that the best method of getting beyond SP is just paying for it?


Well. You officially reached 0/10 on the troll meter. Either that, or simply can't realize that some people relish a challenge, not the easy way out of buying a toon.


Teckos Pech wrote:
Or buy PLEX which is how I bet many do it.

If you can make 180 million/hour to get to 30 billion requires 166.67 hours.

Or you could buy 25 PLEX (assuming a price of 1.2 billion/PLEX), or $498.75. Which if you make $20/hour after taxes is about 25 hours of work.

You do the calculus...

Which do you value more:

1. 166.67 hour of leisure spent grinding ISK,
2. 25 hours worth of after tax income?

And 30 billion is a bit high, IMO (that is about a 60 million SP character). Getting a character that has good logistics skills so you can fly logi and a few other doctrines would probably cost quite a bit less.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Bobb Bobbington
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#245 - 2015-10-25 02:47:37 UTC
That doesn't prove anything. Like I said, some people simply enjoy the challenge, or don't want to drop $500 on a game. Why is it so hard to understand that sometimes the hardest path can be the funnest? Besides, plex doesn't 'buy' SP. You can't create SP out of thin air with plex. You pay somebody to take their toon. Either way it still takes months to get. And if you buy a toon then it might not have the specific skills you want.

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#246 - 2015-10-25 02:48:14 UTC
Scuzzy Logic wrote:
... EVE should be balanced according to test server data where everyone has free access to perfect everything. ...
EVE can be balanced without test data.
It is possible to simple table the possible damage output, ranges, tank abilities and so forth then balance them against each other.

It is considered good game design under current thinking to get players to chase flavour of the month and cycle through content.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#247 - 2015-10-25 02:52:37 UTC
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
That doesn't prove anything. Like I said, some people simply enjoy the challenge, or don't want to drop $500 on a game. Why is it so hard to understand that sometimes the hardest path can be the funnest? Besides, plex doesn't 'buy' SP. You can't create SP out of thin air with plex. You pay somebody to take their toon. Either way it still takes months to get. And if you buy a toon then it might not have the specific skills you want.

Except, making ISK is a pretty poor overall experience, especially for fresh characters.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Top Guac
Doomheim
#248 - 2015-10-25 02:59:09 UTC
Dror wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
That doesn't prove anything. Like I said, some people simply enjoy the challenge, or don't want to drop $500 on a game. Why is it so hard to understand that sometimes the hardest path can be the funnest? Besides, plex doesn't 'buy' SP. You can't create SP out of thin air with plex. You pay somebody to take their toon. Either way it still takes months to get. And if you buy a toon then it might not have the specific skills you want.

Except, making ISK is a pretty poor overall experience, especially for fresh characters.

Top Guac.

You got data to support that, or is that just what you think?

I have a great time doubling ISK. I seem to have doubled mine several times over already.
Bobb Bobbington
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#249 - 2015-10-25 03:01:40 UTC
Dror wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
That doesn't prove anything. Like I said, some people simply enjoy the challenge, or don't want to drop $500 on a game. Why is it so hard to understand that sometimes the hardest path can be the funnest? Besides, plex doesn't 'buy' SP. You can't create SP out of thin air with plex. You pay somebody to take their toon. Either way it still takes months to get. And if you buy a toon then it might not have the specific skills you want.

Except, making ISK is a pretty poor overall experience, especially for fresh characters.


Wait, so are you protesting against having to be patient, or having to actually work to advance in games? Either way, like I said, the WHOLE point of Eve is overcoming obstacles. How many times do I need to say that?

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#250 - 2015-10-25 03:08:43 UTC
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
Dror wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
That doesn't prove anything. Like I said, some people simply enjoy the challenge, or don't want to drop $500 on a game. Why is it so hard to understand that sometimes the hardest path can be the funnest? Besides, plex doesn't 'buy' SP. You can't create SP out of thin air with plex. You pay somebody to take their toon. Either way it still takes months to get. And if you buy a toon then it might not have the specific skills you want.

Except, making ISK is a pretty poor overall experience, especially for fresh characters.


Wait, so are you protesting against having to be patient, or having to actually work to advance in games? Either way, like I said, the WHOLE point of Eve is overcoming obstacles. How many times do I need to say that?

If only that improved retention rate. In other words, your argument is shallow and based on nothing, apparently, but an appeal to tradition.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Yusef Brion
Big Yellow Pidgeon Inc.
#251 - 2015-10-25 03:08:55 UTC
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
Wait, so are you protesting against having to be patient, or having to actually work to advance in games? Either way, like I said, the WHOLE point of Eve is overcoming obstacles. How many times do I need to say that?


I think he's trying to win a bet, and this thread is all our punishment.

The more I read the forums over the years, the more I swear. To god. That the typos are intentional mistakes. Part o f the encryption.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#252 - 2015-10-25 03:22:26 UTC
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
... Wait, so are you protesting against having to be patient, ...?...
Kids these days want immediate self gratification and don't understand that a greater sense of accomplishment comes from achieving larger goals despite adversity and "random" obsticles.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Bobb Bobbington
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#253 - 2015-10-25 03:26:19 UTC
Yusef Brion wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
Wait, so are you protesting against having to be patient, or having to actually work to advance in games? Either way, like I said, the WHOLE point of Eve is overcoming obstacles. How many times do I need to say that?


I think he's trying to win a bet, and this thread is all our punishment.


Yea... I mean he trolled pretty convincingly, I honestly thought he was being truthful for a while, but now I've sort of given up and just put in a few edgewise comments every now and then. But this troll's life is done.

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#254 - 2015-10-25 03:37:01 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
... Wait, so are you protesting against having to be patient, ...?...
Kids these days want immediate self gratification and don't understand that a greater sense of accomplishment comes from achieving larger goals despite adversity and "random" obsticles.


Bobb Bobbington wrote:
Yusef Brion wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
Wait, so are you protesting against having to be patient, or having to actually work to advance in games? Either way, like I said, the WHOLE point of Eve is overcoming obstacles. How many times do I need to say that?


I think he's trying to win a bet, and this thread is all our punishment.


Yea... I mean he trolled pretty convincingly, I honestly thought he was being truthful for a while, but now I've sort of given up and just put in a few edgewise comments every now and then. But this troll's life is done.

There's plenty of a lot deeper criticisms than that.

Enjoy.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Bobb Bobbington
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#255 - 2015-10-25 03:53:57 UTC
Well if you're going to criticize for the sake of criticizing, you may as well go full out instead of half-assing it, right?

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.
Aoife Fraoch
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#256 - 2015-10-25 05:08:34 UTC
Dror wrote:
Aoife Fraoch wrote:
Dror wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
So... you believe players should be able to use everything to full effect if they have it... because you're mad about having to wait... so you think Eve should be more like WoW... destroying it's niche and alienating all of it's customer base... and killing CCP...

Can you list a reason why there should be an arbitrary gate? Could you, unless specifying how it's relevant, exclude other games? Can you drop the pretense.. maybe explain how it seems that giving veterans x00M SP, relatively speaking, is a problem for them?




Why can't you admit that this game isn't for you and maybe getting a level boosted WOW character or a few premium vehicles in a world of x game is more your thing?

You miss the point of the game. You forget that eve is about groups first. Yes you can play solo, but you are limited if you do. Playing in a group opens up opportunities and with good organisation makes you competitive regardless of SP. the fact that the people I fly with in game are still here even though the original Corp got dogpiled by mercs demonstrates this.

Just because you can not understand this and dress up your frustrating in a cargo cult-esk soup of words and half understood concepts doesn't change this.

Perhaps you need a new hobby?


QFT:

Aerasia wrote:
The numbers aren't public, but I'd imagine most people who trial EVE don't sub.
50% of those who do sub are gone within a month.
90% of those who do sub are gone within 6 months.
What represents the overall churn for EVE? 99.9% no longer playing? 99.999%? More?
Of that small percent, 25,000 characters are purchased each year to skip the SP grind.

"A vanishingly small, nearly imperceptible percentage of people can stomach the SP system and therefore it's fine." isn't a convincing argument.


Edit:
@ Scuzzy Logic,

I'm sure there's a limit on the amount of clients the game can support.


So it is all just conjecture.
Deck Cadelanne
CAStabouts
#257 - 2015-10-25 09:09:07 UTC
Dror wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
Can I just point out, again, how us simply being here refutes your point? If they're design was a bad idea there's no way they'd have made it 11 (12?) years

Yet, probably a huge percentage of the forums would criticize some design crux of WoW's popularity.. It says nothing.


Here's a little "unbiased criticism" of your original and subsequent posts.

Yes, yes. WoW is awesome and EVE should be like WoW because lots of players play WoW. Your point is abundantly clear even though you only come around to it through ridiculously convoluted arguments.

You fail to recognize why you are wrong (as demonstrated by you posting such a screed here, of all places), how your "logic" is so deeply flawed it can't even be described as such, you respond to counter-arguments with complete nonsense (literally, nonsense: constructions that make no sense at all).

You do realize you are a complete fool for posting this here, in this forum?

You do realize you are literally wasting your time and making yourself look like more and more of an idiot by carrying on with this?

You are demonstrating a complete failure to actually understand the theory you are claiming to promote while simultaneously demonstrating a singular inability to actually make a coherent statement, let alone a well-reasoned argument.

"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."

- Hunter S. Thompson
Abon
Pandorum Research Incorporated
#258 - 2015-10-25 09:51:09 UTC
slightly off topic but oh dear i just got up and you post SWG stuff. why? WHYYYYY? Sad

i still want to smack Smedley over his stupid mouth with a wet towel for ruining it.
Thierry Orlenard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#259 - 2015-10-25 10:09:39 UTC
Aoife Fraoch wrote:
Dror wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
So... you believe players should be able to use everything to full effect if they have it... because you're mad about having to wait... so you think Eve should be more like WoW... destroying it's niche and alienating all of it's customer base... and killing CCP...

Can you list a reason why there should be an arbitrary gate? Could you, unless specifying how it's relevant, exclude other games? Can you drop the pretense.. maybe explain how it seems that giving veterans x00M SP, relatively speaking, is a problem for them?




Why can't you admit that this game isn't for you and maybe getting a level boosted WOW character or a few premium vehicles in a world of x game is more your thing?


Honestly, from his comments, I have concluded that he is the kind of guy who would purchase a level 90 boosted character in WoW, then run to their forums and whine that he has to go those final 10 levels and work to gear up at 100 all by himself.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#260 - 2015-10-25 10:41:47 UTC
Top Guac wrote:
Top Guac.

You got data to support that, or is that just what you think?

I have a great time doubling ISK. I seem to have doubled mine several times over already.

Do you have data to support that you make at least 180M/hr.. and that you enjoy doing that for 170hrs.?

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Kids these days want immediate self gratification and don't understand that a greater sense of accomplishment comes from achieving larger goals despite adversity and "random" obsticles.

Do you actually have any evidence for any of this? In fact, it's discussed in the thread exactly how SP negatively effects game loyalty.. and it's not as if the PCU is claiming anything else.

Aoife Fraoch wrote:
So it is all just conjecture.

Please quote what is, then; but the discussion about studies? Nope. Especially not if you can't support any opposing hypotheses.

Deck Cadelanne wrote:
Yes, yes. WoW is awesome and EVE should be like WoW because lots of players play WoW.

You are demonstrating a complete failure to actually understand the theory you are claiming to promote while simultaneously demonstrating a singular inability to actually make a coherent statement, let alone a well-reasoned argument.

Strawman.

Then, refute it.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.