These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Unbiased Criticisms for the Game
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#221 - 2015-10-25 00:12:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Dror
Paul Pohl wrote:
and you seem to have missed the point that not every game boils down to running across the table

perhaps you should consider that a game of strategy and tactics - might actually require strategy and tactics

How can low SP allow strategy and tactics? That's exactly the point, obviously.

Paul Pohl wrote:
the mere mention of 'classes' makes it invalid in eve

It's not about classes, except that they tend to have direct counters which causes problems with fair play and opportunity. It says, basically, that even if classes are necessary, the game should allow an equal opportunity to win a battle.

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Dror wrote:
... Why is a character playing what and how he likes silly? ....
You really do want us to do your thinking for you, don't you?
- Eggs in one basket; large loss and frequently a subsequent quitting of the game.
- The losses incurred by their alliance / friends when they do something stupid like jump a Titan into enemy space.

There are more but my bath is getting cold.

The former is a fabricated implication ignoring standards and what's motivating. The latter is basically the same idea.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#222 - 2015-10-25 00:41:01 UTC
Dror wrote:

How can low SP allow strategy and tactics? That's exactly the point, obviously..


uhhhh .... let me think... hang on... hang on.... it'll come to me in a minute....

how about not fighting when you know you will lose?
or perhaps not fighting over something that is not worth fighting about?
or waiting until you have the skills required to win - or indeed the 'buddies'....

you know - like 'a plan' meaning a strategy - and tactics being the way in which you will carry out the plan

or indeed not fighting at all - you could have the most tip-tip T3 this/ that/or whatever in the universe - but if I have set out to corner the market in mining crystals in a sector at the other end of the universe - I doubt my low skill-set is going to have the slightest impact on either your game or mine

or have I missed something obvious?

oh and btw - another fallacy I notice you have been peddling is the idea that capital ships should be easily obtainable to 'newbs' (whatever that means) - which is fine, until you get a shiny battleship and realize that there are a whole bunch of skills that you have skipped while running to get the cool 'big' ship, that you need to actually fly - in fact all you have really done is acquire a brick in space

which is the beauty of the SP system - because it is not until you reach the 'goal' that you understand what skills you actually need - which in turn leads to added character investment/involvement and all the stuff quoted in the article - that apparently eve doesn't have - until you play it
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#223 - 2015-10-25 00:50:31 UTC
Paul Pohl wrote:
Dror wrote:

How can low SP allow strategy and tactics? That's exactly the point, obviously..


uhhhh .... let me think... hang on... hang on.... it'll come to me in a minute....

how about not fighting when you know you will lose?
or perhaps not fighting over something that is not worth fighting about?
or waiting until you have the skills required to win - or indeed the 'buddies'....

you know - like 'a plan' meaning a strategy - and tactics being the way in which you will carry out the plan

or indeed not fighting at all - you could have the most tip-tip T3 this/ that/or whatever in the universe - but if I have set out to corner the market in mining crystals in a sector at the other end of the universe - I doubt my low skill-set is going to have the slightest impact on either your game or mine

or have I missed something obvious?

oh and btw - another fallacy I notice you have been peddling is the idea that capital ships should be easily obtainable to 'newbs' (whatever that means) - which is fine, until you get a shiny battleship and realize that there are a whole bunch of skills that you have skipped while running to get the cool 'big' ship, that you need to actually fly - in fact all you have really done is acquire a brick in space

which is the beauty of the SP system - because it is not until you reach the 'goal' that you understand what skills you actually need - which in turn leads to added character investment/involvement and all the stuff quoted in the article - that apparently eve doesn't have - until you play it

All of these are, basically, literally not playing the game, where they could be actually strategizing and engaging. You're just suggesting to not play the game wherever the newbies come upon something more intense than their T1s. PS, that's no fair playing field (as is mentioned to increase interest and game loyalty.. which arguably lessens without the fairness).

The point of a game without SP is that there's no SP. Is that obvious? "Having no BS 'skills'" is literally a worthless criticism.

The claims about SP increasing character investment/involvement (ownership and social identity) are baseless. The thread discussion already mentions how it decreases them.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Odie McCracken
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#224 - 2015-10-25 01:04:39 UTC
Some people say cucumbers taste better pickled.


/shrug.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#225 - 2015-10-25 01:25:59 UTC
Odie McCracken wrote:
Some people say cucumbers taste better pickled.


/shrug.

Then why are they in a non-pickled thread?

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#226 - 2015-10-25 01:26:07 UTC
Dror wrote:
... The point of a game without SP is that there's no SP. ....
You are bent out of shape about Skill Points. Somehow you think this limits you.
You limit you.

Solo vs multiple is exceptional, discard that for the purposes of your goals and this discussion.

Provi Bloc (a Null Sec coalition) field:

  • Ruptures
  • Thoraxes
  • Stabbers
  • Drakes (before missle boost)
  • Nagas
  • Frigates and destroyers.
  • Bombers that don't cloak up.
Are you going to tell me that those ships require a lot of skill points to fly?
This results in all sorts of things, like a Naga fleets wiping out a Tempest Fleet Issue fleet that has carriers backing it up and is flown by older, higher SP characters.

Why?

ArrowEVE combat is about composition and execution.

The extreme example of this, is Rooks and Kings, they can take a small group and stand toe-to-toe with a much larger force, partly, yes because they have high skill point characters but mostly because they have a group of intelligent players, who fly perfect compositions and execute their plans with precision.

If Goons could get 500 players on that level of competence and they had no skill points requirements, then that would really shut new players out.

Skill points limit how many blingy ships veteran groups can field and that actually makes content more accessible for new players.
Look up a NPSI gleet and join them. You can roam through Null Sec space in interceptors, destroyers and various other cheap stuff.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#227 - 2015-10-25 01:30:03 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Dror wrote:
... The point of a game without SP is that there's no SP. ....
You are bent out of shape about Skill Points. Somehow you think this limits you.
You limit you.

Solo vs multiple is exceptional, discard that for the purposes of your goals and this discussion.

Provi Bloc (a Null Sec coalition) field:

  • Ruptures
  • Thoraxes
  • Stabbers
  • Drakes (before missle boost)
  • Nagas
  • Frigates and destroyers.
  • Bombers that don't cloak up.
Are you going to tell me that those ships require a lot of skill points to fly?
This results in all sorts of things, like a Naga fleets wiping out a Tempest Fleet Issue fleet that has carriers backing it up and is flown by older, higher SP characters.

Why?

ArrowEVE combat is about composition and execution.

The extreme example of this, is Rooks and Kings, they can take a small group and stand toe-to-toe with a much larger force, partly, yes because they have high skill point characters but mostly because they have a group of intelligent players, who fly perfect compositions and execute their plans with precision.

If Goons could get 500 players on that level of competence and they had no skill points requirements, then that would really shut new players out.

Skill points limit how many blingy ships veteran groups can field and that actually makes content more accessible for new players.
Look up a NPSI gleet and join them. You can roam through Null Sec space in interceptors, destroyers and various other cheap stuff.

Should I call you out with words or just post a picture?

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Bobb Bobbington
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#228 - 2015-10-25 01:39:13 UTC
Dror wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Dror wrote:
... The point of a game without SP is that there's no SP. ....
You are bent out of shape about Skill Points. Somehow you think this limits you.
You limit you.

Solo vs multiple is exceptional, discard that for the purposes of your goals and this discussion.

Provi Bloc (a Null Sec coalition) field:

  • Ruptures
  • Thoraxes
  • Stabbers
  • Drakes (before missle boost)
  • Nagas
  • Frigates and destroyers.
  • Bombers that don't cloak up.
Are you going to tell me that those ships require a lot of skill points to fly?
This results in all sorts of things, like a Naga fleets wiping out a Tempest Fleet Issue fleet that has carriers backing it up and is flown by older, higher SP characters.

Why?

ArrowEVE combat is about composition and execution.

The extreme example of this, is Rooks and Kings, they can take a small group and stand toe-to-toe with a much larger force, partly, yes because they have high skill point characters but mostly because they have a group of intelligent players, who fly perfect compositions and execute their plans with precision.

If Goons could get 500 players on that level of competence and they had no skill points requirements, then that would really shut new players out.

Skill points limit how many blingy ships veteran groups can field and that actually makes content more accessible for new players.
Look up a NPSI gleet and join them. You can roam through Null Sec space in interceptors, destroyers and various other cheap stuff.

Should I call you out with words or just post a picture?



Lol, tries to explain a comeback with a picture totally unrelated to the original comment.

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#229 - 2015-10-25 01:42:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Dror wrote:
... Should I call you out with words or just post a picture?
*Sigh.*Roll

Edit: If you are having trouble finding Provi Bloc then look for "corebloodbrothers" or myself on beta.eve-kill.net
(Since it is against forum rules for me to link kill mails in this thread as examples)

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#230 - 2015-10-25 01:46:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Dror
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
Dror wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Dror wrote:
... The point of a game without SP is that there's no SP. ....
You are bent out of shape about Skill Points. Somehow you think this limits you.
You limit you.

Solo vs multiple is exceptional, discard that for the purposes of your goals and this discussion.

Provi Bloc (a Null Sec coalition) field:

  • Ruptures
  • Thoraxes
  • Stabbers
  • Drakes (before missle boost)
  • Nagas
  • Frigates and destroyers.
  • Bombers that don't cloak up.
Are you going to tell me that those ships require a lot of skill points to fly?
This results in all sorts of things, like a Naga fleets wiping out a Tempest Fleet Issue fleet that has carriers backing it up and is flown by older, higher SP characters.

Why?

ArrowEVE combat is about composition and execution.

The extreme example of this, is Rooks and Kings, they can take a small group and stand toe-to-toe with a much larger force, partly, yes because they have high skill point characters but mostly because they have a group of intelligent players, who fly perfect compositions and execute their plans with precision.

If Goons could get 500 players on that level of competence and they had no skill points requirements, then that would really shut new players out.

Skill points limit how many blingy ships veteran groups can field and that actually makes content more accessible for new players.
Look up a NPSI gleet and join them. You can roam through Null Sec space in interceptors, destroyers and various other cheap stuff.

Should I call you out with words or just post a picture?



Lol, tries to explain a comeback with a picture totally unrelated to the original comment.

Is it really news that newbies basically just get frigates.. in a T3D meta. ..That Lokis and Proteuses are some of the top ships, completely beyond implications of their limited presence.

These all seem like straight barriers to newbies playing interesting (self-directed) roles in effecting the game realm. Furthermore, the option of ridding their training queue of their own character comes quite abruptly in the game. These base from the ideas mentioned about character ownership and effectiveness being key. That, with "limited content" being the same, is yet to be refuted. Any ideas?

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#231 - 2015-10-25 01:49:09 UTC
Dror wrote:
... Is it really news that newbies basically just get frigates.. in a T3D meta. ...
This is not a skill point problem.
This is a stupid ship design problem.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#232 - 2015-10-25 01:50:53 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Dror wrote:
... Is it really news that newbies basically just get frigates.. in a T3D meta. ...
This is not a skill point problem.
This is a stupid ship design problem.

According to these post links, it's a whole game design problem.

Maybe you can limit the scope of the discussion within actual science. CCP mentions it. It's relevant.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Bobb Bobbington
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#233 - 2015-10-25 01:54:00 UTC
Dror wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
Dror wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Dror wrote:
... The point of a game without SP is that there's no SP. ....
You are bent out of shape about Skill Points. Somehow you think this limits you.
You limit you.

Solo vs multiple is exceptional, discard that for the purposes of your goals and this discussion.

Provi Bloc (a Null Sec coalition) field:

  • Ruptures
  • Thoraxes
  • Stabbers
  • Drakes (before missle boost)
  • Nagas
  • Frigates and destroyers.
  • Bombers that don't cloak up.
Are you going to tell me that those ships require a lot of skill points to fly?
This results in all sorts of things, like a Naga fleets wiping out a Tempest Fleet Issue fleet that has carriers backing it up and is flown by older, higher SP characters.

Why?

ArrowEVE combat is about composition and execution.

The extreme example of this, is Rooks and Kings, they can take a small group and stand toe-to-toe with a much larger force, partly, yes because they have high skill point characters but mostly because they have a group of intelligent players, who fly perfect compositions and execute their plans with precision.

If Goons could get 500 players on that level of competence and they had no skill points requirements, then that would really shut new players out.

Skill points limit how many blingy ships veteran groups can field and that actually makes content more accessible for new players.
Look up a NPSI gleet and join them. You can roam through Null Sec space in interceptors, destroyers and various other cheap stuff.

Should I call you out with words or just post a picture?



Lol, tries to explain a comeback with a picture totally unrelated to the original comment.

Is it really news that newbies basically just get frigates.. in a T3D meta. ..That Lokis and Proteuses are some of the top ships, completely beyond implications of their limited presence.

These all seem like straight barriers to newbies playing interesting (self-directed) roles in affecting the game realm. Furthermore, the option of ridding their training queue of their own character comes quite abruptly in the game. These base from the ideas mentioned about character ownership and effectiveness being key. That, with "limited content" being the same, is yet to be refuted. Any ideas?


So... you believe players should be able to use everything to full effect if they have it... because you're mad about having to wait... so you think Eve should be more like WoW... destroying it's niche and alienating all of it's customer base... and killing CCP...

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#234 - 2015-10-25 01:57:52 UTC
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
So... you believe players should be able to use everything to full effect if they have it... because you're mad about having to wait... so you think Eve should be more like WoW... destroying it's niche and alienating all of it's customer base... and killing CCP...

Can you list a reason why there should be an arbitrary gate? Could you, unless specifying how it's relevant, exclude other games? Can you drop the pretense.. maybe explain how it seems that giving veterans x00M SP, relatively speaking, is a problem for them?


"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#235 - 2015-10-25 02:01:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Dror wrote:
Can you list a reason why there should be an arbitrary gate? Could you, unless specifying how it's relevant, exclude other games? Can you drop the pretense.. maybe explain how it seems that giving veterans x00M SP, relatively speaking, is a problem for them?
Veteran groups can afford better ships, repeatedly.

After you remove skill points, which limits veterans as much as newbies (the sweet spot for skill points, time and so forth is in the middle) and realise that you have crushed new players by allowing veterans to fly anything - will you then call for the removal of ISK?

To highlight why you are deluded, I repeat, go and experience the test server.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Bobb Bobbington
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#236 - 2015-10-25 02:04:58 UTC
Dror wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
So... you believe players should be able to use everything to full effect if they have it... because you're mad about having to wait... so you think Eve should be more like WoW... destroying it's niche and alienating all of it's customer base... and killing CCP...

Can you list a reason why there should be an arbitrary gate? Could you, unless specifying how it's relevant, exclude other games? Can you drop the pretense.. maybe explain how it seems that giving veterans x00M SP, relatively speaking, is a problem for them?





As I've said before, it's the ENTIRE GAME! To overcome the obstacles! That's its ENTIRE NICHE.

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#237 - 2015-10-25 02:06:38 UTC
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
As I've said before, it's the ENTIRE GAME! To overcome the obstacles! That's its ENTIRE NICHE.

Surely, it's within realization that the best method of getting beyond SP is just paying for it?

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Dror wrote:
Can you list a reason why there should be an arbitrary gate? Could you, unless specifying how it's relevant, exclude other games? Can you drop the pretense.. maybe explain how it seems that giving veterans x00M SP, relatively speaking, is a problem for them?
Veteran groups can afford better ships, repeatedly.

After you remove skill points, which limits veterans as much as newbies (the sweet spot for skill points, time and so forth is in the middle) and realise that you have crushed new players by allowing veterans to fly anything - will you then call for the removal of ISK?

To highlight why are you are deluded, I repeat, go and experience the test server.

You're arguing to extremes.

There's no reason to say that newbies would have no place in the sandbox. A huge niche is shown pretty evidently with a certain hierarchy of motivation -- protip: it's benevolence and unity.

Strategy is fun. If that includes recruiting newbs, and literally any that would pay for the game, magnificent!

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Aoife Fraoch
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#238 - 2015-10-25 02:12:59 UTC
Dror wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
So... you believe players should be able to use everything to full effect if they have it... because you're mad about having to wait... so you think Eve should be more like WoW... destroying it's niche and alienating all of it's customer base... and killing CCP...

Can you list a reason why there should be an arbitrary gate? Could you, unless specifying how it's relevant, exclude other games? Can you drop the pretense.. maybe explain how it seems that giving veterans x00M SP, relatively speaking, is a problem for them?




Why can't you admit that this game isn't for you and maybe getting a level boosted WOW character or a few premium vehicles in a world of x game is more your thing?

You miss the point of the game. You forget that eve is about groups first. Yes you can play solo, but you are limited if you do. Playing in a group opens up opportunities and with good organisation makes you competitive regardless of SP. the fact that the people I fly with in game are still here even though the original Corp got dogpiled by mercs demonstrates this.

Just because you can not understand this and dress up your frustrating in a cargo cult-esk soup of words and half understood concepts doesn't change this.

Perhaps you need a new hobby?
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#239 - 2015-10-25 02:19:35 UTC
Lack of diminishing returns on ''Bring more players'' leads to a situation where multiboxing is a solution to literally every issue sort of ''I don,t have enough eyes/money to handle all these toons''.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#240 - 2015-10-25 02:20:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Dror
Aoife Fraoch wrote:
Dror wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
So... you believe players should be able to use everything to full effect if they have it... because you're mad about having to wait... so you think Eve should be more like WoW... destroying it's niche and alienating all of it's customer base... and killing CCP...

Can you list a reason why there should be an arbitrary gate? Could you, unless specifying how it's relevant, exclude other games? Can you drop the pretense.. maybe explain how it seems that giving veterans x00M SP, relatively speaking, is a problem for them?




Why can't you admit that this game isn't for you and maybe getting a level boosted WOW character or a few premium vehicles in a world of x game is more your thing?

You miss the point of the game. You forget that eve is about groups first. Yes you can play solo, but you are limited if you do. Playing in a group opens up opportunities and with good organisation makes you competitive regardless of SP. the fact that the people I fly with in game are still here even though the original Corp got dogpiled by mercs demonstrates this.

Just because you can not understand this and dress up your frustrating in a cargo cult-esk soup of words and half understood concepts doesn't change this.

Perhaps you need a new hobby?


QFT:

Aerasia wrote:
The numbers aren't public, but I'd imagine most people who trial EVE don't sub.
50% of those who do sub are gone within a month.
90% of those who do sub are gone within 6 months.
What represents the overall churn for EVE? 99.9% no longer playing? 99.999%? More?
Of that small percent, 25,000 characters are purchased each year to skip the SP grind.

"A vanishingly small, nearly imperceptible percentage of people can stomach the SP system and therefore it's fine." isn't a convincing argument.


Edit:
@ Scuzzy Logic,

I'm sure there's a limit on the amount of clients the game can support.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.