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@ Zarnark
Wolf can't do that much dps AND have that much range, let alone have a tank while doing all of that.
The Enyo is the same way, and has really high dps with a really really shoddy tank.
The Wolf also has a tracking bonus now, 7.5% per level. That's 0.74 tracking with 200mm ACs, more than enough to track light drones.

Destroyers have their role as anti-support, and when fit accordingly, they destroy all frigates including AFs.
If you are having trouble, it's not the ships fault. However, I will concede that some T1 frigates & cruisers do need some boosting.

AFs do really really well against larger craft. Their largest hurdle (which made them unnecessarily difficult to use) was getting to their targets without getting shot out of the sky. With the new changes that isn't a problem, and unless hit with double webs, all AFs are extremely difficult to damage within a close orbit.

@Soon
Retribution could maybe use some more tracking OR damage. Not both.
The Enyo gets 10% because that is two combined bonuses of 5%.
Unlike the other AFs, the Retribution has a really stiff tank combined with respectable dps, tracking, cap, and range.
It's much stronger than you're making it out to be.

@Marlona
Nobody is forcing you to fit a MWD, some people will fit an AB. Just like nobody is forcing folks to fit an MWD on interceptors.
You still see people flying about in AB inties, and nobody is crying about the wasted bonus there

The MWD bonus makes AFs usable where the majority of pvp happens, 00. ABs are too slow, and MWDs make the ships too fast. Now the ship can move about without being one vollied by some stray rats.

ABing frigates currently do more than 1.2km/s when overloaded. That's not an immense increase in speed, but that is enough for them to be next to immune from incoming damage. You've conveniently ignored my posts on FHC showing the math and results of why it's a bad idea, so please don't try to peddle it here.

Unfortunately for you, there is no better way to test these ships than in actual pvp on TQ.
Fortunately for those with a brain, it didn't take much to realize that the AB bonus was overpowered in testing and that the MWD bonus is actually pretty damn good.

@Bob
AFs are now the frigate equivalent of HACs, hitting well above their weight.
They are capable of killing cruisers with about as much hassle that HACs get killing BCs.

@Prometheus, whilst I understand your nulsec focus, AF's are simply not used there. There are a number of low sec based AF enthusiasts who fly these ships almost exclusively. Why we love them the way we do is up to us.

Your support of these changes flys in the face of your role on the CSM. Can you honestly tell me that all of sudden people will now fly AF's when Interceptors already fulfill perfectly the role you are talking about?

What you are saying, it sounds like to me, is that for a tiny bit of flexibility on the nulsec battlefield, you are totally prepared to ignore and radically effect the only people currently using the ships? And in the process severely hamper a lifestyle choice we as capsuleers have embraced?

It makes no sense to me that you would take this line on a ship class that barely effects you and your fleets but which so massively effects the low sec pirate.

That's only really true if you're trying to hit them with bigger guns. AF's have no trouble hitting or being hit by other AF's.

And even then If you tackle a Hurricane in say the tankiest of AF's (the vengeance), if that Hurricane is fitted for it the Dual (hopefully staggered) neuts and likely dual webs (if you got caught in a shield cane by a solo vengeance, you should be ridiculed mercilessly) + drones are going to melt your Vengeance in short order.

Now I realise that a nullsec fleet cane is probably not fitted this way, but that is not a reason to state AF's are really hard to hit, if you're not fitted to fight frigs then, no, you won't do well vs. frigs I don't see why that is 'wrong'.

My last point @Prom's post and @Marlona, exactly. A role bonus needs to be associated with a role. What you are saying is that AF's are being 'roled' to tackle bigger ships? I thought there was another class of ship designed for this.

My frustration with this thread is that nobody has said, this in a cool, interesting, unique and needed role for this class of ship. My suggestion is to work on the pack mentality idea entirely.

I'd have a Role Bonus that focuses on pack mentality. The wolf pack roam is genius and desperately needed to get new players into PVP. There are a couple of creative ways to approach this, buffs based on number of other AF's (EDIT: well frigates really) in wing or something. Put a cap on it, or something. Make each AF buff other frigates in fleet with agility, tank n gank or something.

I'm not a game designer, clearly, but I'd rather make some suggestion.

But having a CSM delegate tell me he wants another roled tackle ship and to have one of the only people in direct contact with CCP lobbying for it makes me pretty friggin angry.

I've flown the Retribution all afternoon yesterday on SiSi and don't agree. Its damage/tank capabilities are not particularly good and it has a serious drawback due to only two mid slots.

In a MWD+Scrambler setup for close range fighting, I've won maybe 10% fights against other AFs (not counting fights against minmatar AFs which are a guaranteed loss). Faction frigs are a serious threat to the Retribution, while the other AFs eat them alive from what I've seen. I attribute the wins to the neut more than anything else.

In a MWD+Web fit, I started winning more and actually stood some chance. Was it too strong? No. Considering that buffing the tracking bonus from 5% to 7.5% isn't going to help nearly as much as a webifier, I would say that the Retribution clearly needs both more damage and better tracking. Once that is on SiSi I'll be able to say more.

Edit: retracting my statement regarding the utility high.

I know very well how tanky they are (my favourite AF is an afterburner AC+Nos fitted vengeance, it can tank ungodly amounts of damage).

My worry is the fact that with all the extra fitting buffs on top of the MWD bonus lowsec PvP will become incredibly stale. As these changes as they are written down here will make them massively outperform a lot of ships used in lowsec.

No longer will you have a fighting chance in a T1 frig (It's hard now but a capable Rifter/Merlin/Tristan or even Incurses pilot CAN kill a AF) suddenly cruisers you needed to be careful engaging like Ruptures, Thoraxes, Celestises are totally valid targets that you will kill (arbi's would still be hard because of the prevalence of neuts on them).
And with mwd buffed AF's Stabbers and Omens, while quite hard still viable ships to fly now, just became essentially flying coffins.
Short of the Thrasher (and a Cormorant in capable hands) these buffs just made the other dessies useless again. And in a lot of the AF's as posted here I would make very short work of light dictors too, including even the Sabre.

Basically what the argument boils down to from my side yes this will make AF's viable in null but it will make them massively overpowered in solo situations.

Ergo; You can have the MWD buff if you must to make them vaible but all the other extra buffs (bar the mid on the retri) are just to much.

I'd be much happier if CCP just implemented the MWD bonus first and then went from there (if needed at all), instead of this massive monster buff all at once.

No. Rockets are utter fail on a ship that's setup for long-range kiting. That's like putting arty on a vagabond. Plus, you're using a MAPC AND a ACRI AND a goddamn 2% fitting implant. One fitting mod maybe, but two (in effect, three)? Nope. Fail.



I guess that everyone's coming at Assault Ships from a really different design perspective, because right now they have no design perspective. Mine is that they are the baby brother of HACs. So with that in mind, CCP have added a mid slot. What are you going to put in it? An MSE? You need 25 more CPU. An invuln? You need 44. What are you going to put in there with +10 CPU (so, +12.5 after skills)? Bearing in mind that it's now got a tanking bonus. So you need (after skills) 30-44 CPU on there.

The rest of the CPU is a little tricky to explain. My standard harpy fit with ions (and t2, no meta (edit: actually, the mwd is meta. welp)) comes at 107% CPU. So, basically, you have to use a Co-processor II to get it to fit. Now, at this point, you've traded out a magstab because you don't want to lose the DCII, so you've lost a lot of DPS and the CPII allows you to upgrade the guns to neutrons to even it out.

My suggestion is that the harpy should be able to field ions while t2 fit without a fitting mod, to avoid this "ions get stepped over" problem.



I don't care about 1v1 vs other assault frigates. I'm interested in how these will work out as small-medium harassment gangs. And those will not be active tanked. Especially on a ship which, if fit as you suggest, has to engage within enemy neut range.

As for the midslot on the jag I think that the jag is fine now without any additional slots. But if you're going to throw one at me I'd rather have a midslot. The jag is a natural shield tanker, and an additional mid would allow for dual-prop, or for a hardener, or a damp or pretty much anything. What am I going to do with another low? Another gyrostabilizer that, at 30 CPU, I can't afford?

@Vol - U MAD?

@Prom - U STOOPID?

Seriously prom. Either think harder or be less obvious about your attempted double bind arguments. Although everything you have said is correct, you fail to address the true issue. You are either stoopid or very good at deflection.

Of course all the ships / fits are being buffed, whether or not the MWD bonus is going to be used by any individual pilot. This will happen to even ship spinning carebears who refuse to undock!

The Mwd bonus is the issue here, not the rest of the buffs. I'm pretty sure everyone likes having their ships buffed (other than a certain Mr Bull).

Of course, as you so brightly point out, nothing is stopping lowsec pilots from using afterburners on AFs. Of course, as you also say, if they do, they won't gain the "enormous boost to the ships" that you are talking about. Way to prove our point (which, btw, is that the MWD bonus, being an enormous boost, is essentially useless to a certain group of people who love flying AFs).

Btw, and I'm not sure if you were aware of this, but you can also fit lazors to rifters, even though they don't have a bonus to said lazors!

To clarify - what Vol, and other solo / small gang lowsec pvp'rs are complaining about is that the MWD bonus doesn't add up for them. Sure, its great for nulsec. Its probably great for medium to large gang fights anwhere. However, it is pretty much useless for lowsec, especially in a solo / small gang environment. Telling us that "well, we don't have to use it" is stupid and is a lame argument. Please don't be stupid and lame.

Now go back to nulsec and shoot rats and make bucketloads of isk while us poor iskless lowsec fighterpilots lament the uselessness of the MWD bonus.


@FEEDBACK

Lowsec hasn't had a "buff" or change to the incentive to go there for ages (if ever).

Considering that AFs are (other than the hurricane or drake) the ship of choice for a huge amount of solo /small gang lowsec pvp pilots, I'm not surprised that the people who have invested their time, effort and money into solo / small gang pvping in lowsec are dissapointed that some of their favourite ships (AFs), which they were desperately hoping would be buffed in a way which would make them awesomesauce in lowsec, have instead been buffed in a way which is essentially useless to them in the environment of their choice.

Its great that CCP loves nulsec. But, CCP - please have some sympathy - us lowseccers have missed a lot of love. We would love a bonus to AFs that makes them even better in lowsec... but because we are such happy go lucky folk, we would actually be happy with a bonus that doesn't only help people in nulsec.

I'm not going to look at the other bonuses because frankly, I don't care. AFs are now probably OP. Yay!

Edit: @Xar Yes. And thanks for having the energy to say the things I did not have the energy to say. And so eloquently! I approve.

I just hope the warranted insultery doesn't cloud the impeccable logic.

Loving the changes, sooner these hit TQ the better tbh, yes the Retri could do with a few tweek's still, but otherwise so far they've been a joy to fly.