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To Tuulinen-"haan" regarding his lies about Tibus Heth
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Wendrika Hydreiga
#41 - 2015-10-23 19:27:48 UTC
Wait, is that why Miss Kim gets upset for no reason at times? So she can challenge people to duels?

That's horrible Miss Kim. You may be a good pilot, but challenging others for petty reasons? That's pratically bullying! For shame!
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#42 - 2015-10-23 19:43:47 UTC
Sahriah BloodStone wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:

Hey! We ain't that bad.....

Ya!


I apologize, you're both right...that was cruel


Thanks!
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#43 - 2015-10-23 19:56:59 UTC
Sahriah BloodStone wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:

Hey! We ain't that bad.....

Ya!


I apologize, you're both right...that was cruel

Apologie accepted. Thank you.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#44 - 2015-10-23 20:02:42 UTC
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:
Wait, is that why Miss Kim gets upset for no reason at times? So she can challenge people to duels?

That's horrible Miss Kim. You may be a good pilot, but challenging others for petty reasons? That's pratically bullying! For shame!

I didn't!
He insulted Tibus Heth first, I have only reacted.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#45 - 2015-10-23 20:07:03 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:
Wait, is that why Miss Kim gets upset for no reason at times? So she can challenge people to duels?

That's horrible Miss Kim. You may be a good pilot, but challenging others for petty reasons? That's pratically bullying! For shame!

I didn't!
He insulted Tibus Heth first, I have only over reacted.

Fixed that for you.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#46 - 2015-10-23 20:08:39 UTC
Uh..... If his legacy and deeds were that great, why does he need to be defended by you or anyone for that matter? The insult by "some stupid tribal" or "a brainwashed Gallante terrorist" or what ever can't really be that important to force you to defend it right? Why waste your breath if we're all inferior to the might and intellect of the Caldari people?
Arrendis
TK Corp
#47 - 2015-10-23 21:21:29 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
What I'm saying is the more its talked about the stronger it grows. People who would believe it, with or without it being refuted, will believe it. Having it refuted will drive people who don't believe it to dwell on it and possibly believe it. Not only that but having the opposition talk about it advertises the propaganda and thus spreads it further. That's why propaganda gets spread to any opposition. Your defense is admirable, but you are kinda' doing yourself and your cause a disservice.


Completely true. In fact, the more the victim fights against propaganda, the stronger the propaganda becomes. The general tendency is to look at the objections and attempts to disprove the propaganda as confirmation of it - after all, if it were obviously false, there'd be no need to disprove it. If it was meaningless lies from an insignificant enemy, why give them the time needed to debunk them?

The mere investment of effort, in the eyes of neutral observers, comes with an investment of value. After all, your time and labor have value, and you are imparting that value onto the propaganda you are expending that time and effort to combat. This is why in politics, the competitor in a position of strength never mentions their opponent, never lends their credibility to the opponent's charges and claims. It is a wonderful, self-deluding tendency of the human brain's nature as a pattern-matching engine that causes this. As a result, it's hardwired into the structure of the brain, and while individuals can, and often do, overcome this tendency where it applies to issues where they are personally knowledgeable, as a general trend - both among individuals and populations, it is utterly inescapable.

To deny your enemy strength, in public you ignore them, and murder them when no-one is looking.
Wendrika Hydreiga
#48 - 2015-10-23 22:49:55 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

I didn't!
He insulted Tibus Heth first, I have only reacted.


I sure hope you're not a bully, Miss Kim! That would break my heart!

My poor, poor carbo-fluorine nanoribbon reinforced heart...
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#49 - 2015-10-23 23:26:37 UTC
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

I didn't!
He insulted Tibus Heth first, I have only reacted.


I sure hope you're not a bully, Miss Kim! That would break my heart!

My poor, poor carbo-fluorine nanoribbon reinforced heart...

She's not a bully...... she's a sociopath, but who here isn't?

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#50 - 2015-10-24 03:32:54 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

I didn't!
He insulted Tibus Heth first, I have only reacted.


I sure hope you're not a bully, Miss Kim! That would break my heart!

My poor, poor carbo-fluorine nanoribbon reinforced heart...

She's not a bully...... she's a sociopath, but who here isn't?

I am not a socioPATH.
I am a socioWAYIST.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#51 - 2015-10-24 07:06:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Anabella Rella
Claudia Osyn wrote:
She's not a bully...... she's a sociopath, but who here isn't?

You forgot to mention that she's also a xenophobe, bigot, racist, thin-skinned little git with the social skills of a sponge and the body of a 12 year old boy.

Also while the term sociopath may be applied to some capsuleers many of us still have human emotions and a conscience.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Wendrika Hydreiga
#52 - 2015-10-24 11:58:15 UTC
Well, as long as she's not a bully...
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#53 - 2015-10-24 12:40:07 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
She's not a bully...... she's a sociopath, but who here isn't?

You forgot to mention that she's also a xenophobe, bigot, racist, thin-skinned little git with the social skills of a sponge and the body of a 12 year old boy.

1) xenophobe - lie
2) bigot - lie
3) racist - lie
4) thin-skinned - lie
5) little - lie
6) git - lie
7) with social skills of a sponge - lie
8) body of 12 year old boy - lie

Okay, 8 lies in one sentence. I challenge to find a capsuleer stupidier than this tribal. Reward - 50 mil isk (payment to those who can find, of course, not to those, who will decide to show themselves more dumber).

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Rook Moray
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2015-10-24 13:48:41 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Anabella Rella wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
She's not a bully...... she's a sociopath, but who here isn't?

You forgot to mention that she's also a xenophobe, bigot, racist, thin-skinned little git with the social skills of a sponge and the body of a 12 year old boy.

1) xenophobe - lie
2) bigot - lie
3) racist - lie
4) thin-skinned - lie
5) little - lie
6) git - lie
7) with social skills of a sponge - lie
8) body of 12 year old boy - lie

Okay, 8 lies in one sentence. I challenge to find a capsuleer stupidier than this tribal. Reward - 50 mil isk (payment to those who can find, of course, not to those, who will decide to show themselves more dumber).




"stupidier"

Please remit.

Glory to the State indeed.

“When you want to know how things really work, study them when they're coming apart.” -Guristas Proverb.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#55 - 2015-10-24 15:06:02 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
She's not a bully...... she's a sociopath, but who here isn't?


Actually, I don't think we have many of those, and I don't think Ms. Kim is one. She's messed up, but she fights against empathy too hard for me to think she's incapable of it.

Messed up, sure, she's that. Maybe most of us are.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2015-10-25 09:12:36 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Actually, I don't think we have many of those, and I don't think Ms. Kim is one. She's messed up, but she fights against empathy too hard for me to think she's incapable of it.

Messed up, sure, she's that. Maybe most of us are.

Pardon, but you're sounding worryingly like your old self again, what with the cop-out excuse of "well, most capsuleers are crazy."

Sorry, but most capsuleers don't advocate for genocide, then try to describe their genocidal urge as qualitatively different enough from the genocidal urge of the imaginary oppressors used to justify it so as to not be hypocritical. Most capsuleers don't continue to claim things about their own nations which are so counter to reality as to have been specifically and explicitly discredited by capsuleer representatives of those nations.

You're right that Kim fights against empathy too much to be a sociopath, but why does that make her better? I think that makes her worse. The misanthropy of a sociopath is understandable if not neccessarily justifiable - they literally can't feel empathy or connection with other human beings. The misanthropy of a person who has had to constantly and exhaustively maintain a specific emotional calculus such as to continue that misanthropy - apparently, for no other reason than misanthropy itself - is not understandable or justifiable whatsoever.

Not having empathy is one thing, but to have empathy and consciously choose to discard it - that's not somehow nobler in the mind. Trust me, I've done it, because I've done pretty much everything, and that path ends with one of two things - clarity and a profound sense of shame, or death.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#57 - 2015-10-25 10:34:42 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Actually, I don't think we have many of those, and I don't think Ms. Kim is one. She's messed up, but she fights against empathy too hard for me to think she's incapable of it.

Messed up, sure, she's that. Maybe most of us are.

Pardon, but you're sounding worryingly like your old self again, what with the cop-out excuse of "well, most capsuleers are crazy."

Sorry, but most capsuleers don't advocate for genocide

Looking that such people as Ixiris were allowed to get capsuleer license, somehow I think the problem is not that "most capsuleers are crazy", but that "most capsuleers are dumb". Especially of federal origin.

Because, really, would anyone capable of reading and comprehending what I was writing and doing say that I would ever advocate for genocide?

Nope.

Only complete idiots would.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#58 - 2015-10-25 14:40:41 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Pardon, but you're sounding worryingly like your old self again, what with the cop-out excuse of "well, most capsuleers are crazy."

Sorry, but most capsuleers don't advocate for genocide, then try to describe their genocidal urge as qualitatively different enough from the genocidal urge of the imaginary oppressors used to justify it so as to not be hypocritical. Most capsuleers don't continue to claim things about their own nations which are so counter to reality as to have been specifically and explicitly discredited by capsuleer representatives of those nations.


Mr. Ixiris, respectfully, it doesn't seem to me like a cop-out excuse to say that most of us are probably a little messed up. Being "messed up" can lead to being someone like Nauplius.

That doesn't mean I think everyone's like him ... or like Ms. Kim. They're both pretty out there, in different ways.

Quote:
You're right that Kim fights against empathy too much to be a sociopath, but why does that make her better? I think that makes her worse. The misanthropy of a sociopath is understandable if not neccessarily justifiable - they literally can't feel empathy or connection with other human beings. The misanthropy of a person who has had to constantly and exhaustively maintain a specific emotional calculus such as to continue that misanthropy - apparently, for no other reason than misanthropy itself - is not understandable or justifiable whatsoever.

Not having empathy is one thing, but to have empathy and consciously choose to discard it - that's not somehow nobler in the mind. Trust me, I've done it, because I've done pretty much everything, and that path ends with one of two things - clarity and a profound sense of shame, or death.


Respectfully, Mr. Ixiris, I'm not really interested in the "right and wrong" of things, or even the "better or worse."

There are people I find it impossible to relate to, but ...

Ms. Kim is a pseudo-immortal, like us. Does it strike you that shunning her or making fun of her is going to somehow make her manageable in the long term? Because I don't think it will. She spends a lot of time and energy talking herself into a fervor, and I see her getting a lot of help.

A lot.

Her fervor derives from anger, and maybe a good dose of self-loathing. I think if her anger drained away, she'd collapse into a little puddle of misery. It would be a very low point, but, maybe from there she'd be able to heal. Grow back stronger, less damaged, and maybe even whole.

But ... I don't really see that ever happening, not in a setting so uncontrolled. People hate her and go out of their way to upset her, so she burns bright pretty much all the time.

I don't know which side's vitriol I'm more tired of seeing. Not that that will stop it.

People have tried to help her before, without too much success. I don't know the details, and I don't know what went wrong, and I'm not at all sure I have the energy myself. But it hurts, watching a bunch of otherwise sensible people playing "taunt the nutter" like it's something harmless and fun and even the right thing to do.

It's a pretty miserable show to watch. And I get the sense it's gone on for a long time, now.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2015-10-25 20:15:36 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Mr. Ixiris, respectfully, it doesn't seem to me like a cop-out excuse to say that most of us are probably a little messed up. Being "messed up" can lead to being someone like Nauplius.

That doesn't mean I think everyone's like him ... or like Ms. Kim. They're both pretty out there, in different ways.

It's certainly a cop-out excuse when most capsuleers are not pathologically dishonest genocidal maniacs, but you're acting like most capsuleers being "messed up" - a charming phrase with an extremely maleable definition - could lead to that, when it obviously hasn't.

Aria Jenneth wrote:
Respectfully, Mr. Ixiris, I'm not really interested in the "right and wrong" of things, or even the "better or worse."

And there's your problem, which was, in a way, also your predecessor's problem.

Aria Jenneth wrote:
Ms. Kim is a pseudo-immortal, like us. Does it strike you that shunning her or making fun of her is going to somehow make her manageable in the long term? Because I don't think it will. She spends a lot of time and energy talking herself into a fervor, and I see her getting a lot of help.

A lot.

Clearly not nearly enough.

Aria Jenneth wrote:
Her fervor derives from anger, and maybe a good dose of self-loathing. I think if her anger drained away, she'd collapse into a little puddle of misery. It would be a very low point, but, maybe from there she'd be able to heal. Grow back stronger, less damaged, and maybe even whole.

But ... I don't really see that ever happening, not in a setting so uncontrolled. People hate her and go out of their way to upset her, so she burns bright pretty much all the time.

I don't know which side's vitriol I'm more tired of seeing. Not that that will stop it.

People have tried to help her before, without too much success. I don't know the details, and I don't know what went wrong, and I'm not at all sure I have the energy myself. But it hurts, watching a bunch of otherwise sensible people playing "taunt the nutter" like it's something harmless and fun and even the right thing to do.

It's a pretty miserable show to watch. And I get the sense it's gone on for a long time, now.

Almost everyone has tried to help or at least talk to Kim, and almost without exception everyone who's tried has given up for the same reason, which is that she is on some level aware of exactly how irrational she is and how unethical her beliefs are, but is absolutely unwilling to make the effort to properly socialise herself because she would actually have to face how awfully she's treated pretty much everyone around her. She quite obviously prefers the sensation of hating people to the possibility of exposing her fragile ego to the realisation that if not everyone she's accused of being assholes actually is one, she certainly is.

You've got a different problem. You - much as your predecessor did - want to feel morally superior to both sides of the argument, so you pretend that people haven't tried diplomacy, haven't tried empathy, haven't tried being reasonable, despite the fact that people worked themselves to frustration attempting to stick their neck out for someone who would never, ever return the favour.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#60 - 2015-10-25 20:24:30 UTC
Maybe it is indeed not that... reasonable to taunt her again and again and despoiling the few precious amounts of decent conversation that medium holds... No? I mean, the IGS certainly does not need that... Ah well, at least this thread has the excuse to be specifically tailored for such displays... I guess...

Or is that place already doomed so that after all, better to endorse that kind of things..?

Also, is remaining neutral and objective such a problem, or a predecessor problem ? What would you say if Ms Jenneth suddenly started spouting grandiose declarations about what is right, and what is wrong, according to her? You might be the first one to get abrasive because those notions of right and wrong would not fit yours...

I... can admit that maybe believing in something, righteously, is what I have been looking for without any results so far. So, on that point, maybe you are right... And at the same time, I feel that for all that I gain, I would lose something invaluable in the process...