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Warfare & Tactics

 
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A kind request for metrics on warfare link use
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Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#121 - 2015-10-14 19:17:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Portmanteau
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Fleets will be massively effected by on grid boosting. There are people that we cant fight without having links. They will have theirs safely on field behind layers of potential triage and slowcat escalations, while ours will be on grid for them to drop 2 dreads on and vaoprise it. That one obvious kill folds the rest of our fleet.

Often we use smaller hulls to fight smaller numbers of bigger ships, like assault frigates vs cruisers/battlecruisers or battleships. Now separate to the question of if that should be viable, it currently is with boosters and far less so without them due to lower risists/buffer and sig. There is no on grid booster than can realistically support such a doctrine. unless all fights return to gates like the days of old.

Personally i like the fighting away from gates. It was always very tedious waiting for the other side to take the gate guns. Couple on grid boosts with weapons timers though and what you have is a huge rift between the larger bodies who arnt really risking their commandship in their 80 man abso fleet, and everyone else who just inst willing to lose a commandship in every 15v15 cruiser fight.

TL;DR - The largest alliances will not be effected but boosts on grid. Smaller groups will seldom field them. This the gap between them increases insurmountably.


I notice you still haven't addressed the very obvious point that fleet/gang warfare flourished before links were the norm and the other point that it's not set in stone what form on grid links will take. You cite very specific and no doubt realistic examples of engagements that will be impaired by on grid links... I would ask, how did you manage before links were a thing ?


EDIT : you should read the CSM minutes as Suitonia's ideas of links being a module enacted on a single ship at a time (or smth like that) are floated as a possibility, that would change links for fleets of all sizes. Have a read.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#122 - 2015-10-14 19:21:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
My area of space didnt have these kinds of fights before OGB. The entities that have formed have done so well within the scope of OGB.

Now, to be clear, as i have said. Im not saying no fights are going to happen. Im just saying that for the satisfaction of a handful of tru-soloers are you willing to upset the majority of players who will find fights abruptly ending as no one can rep the other sides dps turning far more fights into simple DPS races or even alpha fights.
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#123 - 2015-10-14 19:31:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Portmanteau
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
My area of space didnt have these kinds of fights before OGB. The entities that have formed have done so well within the scope of OGB.

Now, to be clear, as i have said. Im not saying no fights are going to happen. Im just saying that for the satisfaction of a handful of tru-soloers are you willing to upset the majority of players who will find fights abruptly ending as no one can rep the other sides dps turning far more fights into simple DPS races or even alpha fights.


And entities will evolve within the scope of new links mechanics just as they do with any other change to ships/modules or gameplay, OGB is not sacred in that respect and pvp had survived every other change. Honestly, why do you keep implying it's just a few soloers who recognise OGB as a bad mechanic, that's clearly not the case. You really should read the CSM minutes, if CCP's 2nd option (suitonia's idea) get's developed, then links will be changing beyond recognition for fleets of all sizes. Everyone will have to adapt... and why shouldn't they, no mechanic, no type of preferred engagement is sacred.

EDIT : if fights start ending quickly as you say, perhaps battleships will find a place again :) (half joking half serious )
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#124 - 2015-10-14 19:43:25 UTC
Im not saying they wont adapt. Im saying that a few solo players get a better experience. And a large number of guys that play for fleet content have a worse experience.
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#125 - 2015-10-14 19:50:14 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Im not saying they wont adapt. Im saying that a few solo players get a better experience. And a large number of guys that play for fleet content have a worse experience.

If they were changed in such a way like what Suitonia suggested don't you think that would be pretty close to a "best of all worlds" situation?
Oddsodz
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#126 - 2015-10-14 19:51:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Oddsodz
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Im not saying they wont adapt. Im saying that a few solo players get a better experience. And a large number of guys that play for fleet content have a worse experience.


Wong. But please stop discussing it. This is not the thread for that. There is many threads for that sort of thing.

Now back to my request. As somebody has pointed out. my request could be an intel boon. For that I should have said that I do not want names of any pilots. Just the numbers.

I hope that clears that up
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#127 - 2015-10-14 19:52:54 UTC
Oddsodz wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Im not saying they wont adapt. Im saying that a few solo players get a better experience. And a large number of guys that play for fleet content have a worse experience.


Wong. But please stop discussing it. This is not the thread for that. There is many threads for that sort of thing.

Now back to my request. As somebody has pointed out. my request could be an intel boon. For that I should have said that I do not want names of any pilots. Just the numbers.

I hope that clears that up


Me discussing boosts is a lot more constructive than you trolling. At least i hope you are trolling and not just disillusion.
Oddsodz
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2015-10-14 19:56:42 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:


Me discussing boosts is a lot more constructive than you trolling. At least i hope you are trolling and not just disillusion.


Well please go and discuss it in one of the countless threads that are talking about it.

I am not trolling anybody. This is just a request for some metrics. Not a thread for if boosts need buffing or nerfing or killed in a fire.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#129 - 2015-10-14 20:26:00 UTC
This thread is talking about it.
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
New Eden Tech Support
#130 - 2015-10-14 23:27:33 UTC
Cearain wrote:
It is very unlikely that CCP would give one player more intel than any others. I would be interested in the actual statistics of how much more often ogbs are used - especially in faction war plex fights. Although I want to know this information it would be idiotic for ccp to publicize this information, if the in fact the use is on the rise. So I hope they keep it secret.

I know op said that people beat to death whether ogb is good or bad. But I had actually never heard that ogb must stay otherwise logi won't be as effective. That Crosi would argue that as a reason to keep ogb just shows how differently he views the game.


Why do you care so much? You've given up, quit, thrown in the towel by your own admission. Keep not pvp'ing and whining about pvp'ing. You sound super credible.

Thank me later :D
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#131 - 2015-10-23 17:07:55 UTC
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:
Cearain wrote:
It is very unlikely that CCP would give one player more intel than any others. I would be interested in the actual statistics of how much more often ogbs are used - especially in faction war plex fights. Although I want to know this information it would be idiotic for ccp to publicize this information, if the in fact the use is on the rise. So I hope they keep it secret.

I know op said that people beat to death whether ogb is good or bad. But I had actually never heard that ogb must stay otherwise logi won't be as effective. That Crosi would argue that as a reason to keep ogb just shows how differently he views the game.


Why do you care so much? You've given up, quit, thrown in the towel by your own admission. Keep not pvp'ing and whining about pvp'ing. You sound super credible.



Because I like eve.

It's funny, if I keep playing despite the bad mechanics then you would say well they are not so bad, no one ever stopped pvping because of them.

But then when I say yep mechanics like this one are why I am no longer pvping, you seem to think that is reason to question my credibility as well.

Whether (or not) the person raising the issue currently plays, does not effect the validity of the issue raised.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#132 - 2015-10-23 17:35:36 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Because I like eve.


I hear ya. I like WoW but the fact that its an MMORPG makes it completely broken. I hate RPG's where theres a bunch of other people having the same conversation with the same NPCs and running the same quests and waving and dancing at me as i walk past. It completely BREAKS the immersion of an RPG for me. Their declining subscription rates are due to this single issue and blizzard has to change WoW fundamentally to appeal to me personally by making it a single player RPG.

Or i might go out and find a game that already suits my preferences rather than demanding changes to WoW to make it a different game.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2015-10-23 21:08:55 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Because I like eve.


I hear ya. I like WoW but the fact that its an MMORPG makes it completely broken. I hate RPG's where theres a bunch of other people having the same conversation with the same NPCs and running the same quests and waving and dancing at me as i walk past. It completely BREAKS the immersion of an RPG for me. Their declining subscription rates are due to this single issue and blizzard has to change WoW fundamentally to appeal to me personally by making it a single player RPG.

Or i might go out and find a game that already suits my preferences rather than demanding changes to WoW to make it a different game.


Let's just be clear...you're saying that one of your preferred distinguishing characteristics of this game is that competitive PvP requires one to pay a second subscription and buy/train an AFK pet to cart around with them?

Sounds like you enjoy being able to buy an advantage over people who aren't willing to dump as much real life cash into EVE.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#134 - 2015-10-23 22:12:09 UTC
You mistake me. I disregard solo pvp for the inconsequential combat that it is. people choosing to go solo then complaining about how hard it is are embarrassing.

Links enable wider viability of various tactics and doctrines at the fleet level. They also allow for larger fights with logi without fleet members being arbitrarily deleted from field.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#135 - 2015-10-23 22:17:34 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Because I like eve.


I hear ya. I like WoW but the fact that its an MMORPG makes it completely broken. I hate RPG's where theres a bunch of other people having the same conversation with the same NPCs and running the same quests and waving and dancing at me as i walk past. It completely BREAKS the immersion of an RPG for me. Their declining subscription rates are due to this single issue and blizzard has to change WoW fundamentally to appeal to me personally by making it a single player RPG.

Or i might go out and find a game that already suits my preferences rather than demanding changes to WoW to make it a different game.


Let's just be clear...you're saying that one of your preferred distinguishing characteristics of this game is that competitive PvP requires one to pay a second subscription and buy/train an AFK pet to cart around with them?

Sounds like you enjoy being able to buy an advantage over people who aren't willing to dump as much real life cash into EVE.



Why even attempt to parse that jibberish?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#136 - 2015-10-23 22:25:33 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
You mistake me. I disregard solo pvp for the inconsequential combat that it is. people choosing to go solo then complaining about how hard it is are embarrassing.

Links enable wider viability of various tactics and doctrines at the fleet level. They also allow for larger fights with logi without fleet members being arbitrarily deleted from field.

The amount of bullshit you make up because you want to keep your links is hilarious
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#137 - 2015-10-23 23:06:26 UTC
The facts you see as bullshit just because you want 1v1s to be fair is amazing.
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#138 - 2015-10-24 00:05:20 UTC
It just seems like every time you post facts, you twist them until they are totally disfigured in order to make it sound like links are a good thing.

I'm not an expert but that's what it looks like when I read these posts.
ColdBeauty
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2015-10-25 04:36:12 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
You mistake me. I disregard solo pvp for the inconsequential combat that it is. people choosing to go solo then complaining about how hard it is are embarrassing.

Links enable wider viability of various tactics and doctrines at the fleet level. They also allow for larger fights with logi without fleet members being arbitrarily deleted from field.


The arrogance seeping from every word you excrete is astounding. Nothing in EvE is inconsequential, certainly not solo pvp. For someone who claims to disregard this particular pastime, you seem to spend a fair amount of isk and effort to make sure you have every advantage when you engage in it, methinks you doth protest too much.

No mechanic or hull or module or emergent gameplay is sacred in EvE, as we speak, ship are being balanced, mechanics changed, isk sources nerfed and yet you claim your one particular kind of engagement is on some sort of elite pvp pedestal. It would almost be believable if you weren't dunking noobs with OP ships and links like everyone else, but it just isn't credible.

Whether you love links for their enabling of this fabled fleet doctrine you harp on about or because you simply can't cope without your solo linked Garmur doesn't really matter. Links will be changed, most likely so that fleets/gangs will still be able to make use of them, but you may have to *gasp* adapt.

Get over it, every one else manages to when any number of other things change in the game, links aren't special.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#140 - 2015-10-25 09:56:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Nah, im saying that solo pvp is content that effects a small portion of the player base. Im also not saying that removing boosts for example would be bad for gameplay, though it would certainly remove many gameplay options.. What i am saying is that it will likely be bad for a large number of players experience. It will likely be found that long drawn out logi fights will be replaced with everyone dying as soon as they are primariedin anything above small gang.

This is seperate to if its a good thing for the game, or if it should have been like this all along. Its a question of if you think people will embrace the culture shock of being blapped in a far wider range of fights.

Take the snufd /shadow cartel stuation of late. You have snufd complaining to SC that if they want a fight, they shouldnt bring 80-130 machariels because its no fun fighting someone who can just delete someone from field at will. Forget the irony of snufd complaining (as though they wouldnt do the same if they could in a second), and understand that the critical mass alpha would be much lower and would impact several hundred players, most of which never solo.

Putting links on grid will not help because they will simply be deleted in one shot too. Perhaps it will be ok for snufd since they can just put links on a carrier and cart it round with them. For anyone who isnt the largest gang in the area at any given time, keeping a slow unwieldy ship alive on grid is most likely going to be a problem. Not to mention no viable options for links in nano fleets (sub BC).