These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Unbiased Criticisms for the Game
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2015-10-23 17:55:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Dror
Odie McCracken wrote:
What "more information" are you looking for? I think most of us like the skill system the way it is and think it's a major selling point of the game.

Are you looking for ideas to get new people into Eve or a replacement for the skill point system?

The PCU is down, a lot of the more "interesting" (news-y) gameplay probabilities are nerfed, and the sub retention problems are yet unfixed.

As mentioned, here's a clear vision for improving all of these. If the game is better (a better experience, more full, more fun) without SP, the removal is definitely worth it. I find, through lots of research, that SP is the problem. I can't find a replacement for this vision.

If we're discussing just demographics, EVE's is very specific and might not have lots of disposable income. That may be another reason that the, basically, paywall progression of EVE results in such poor retention and, overall, limited sub amount. It could also be said that this limited progression is negative for the whole market though, because it's very competitive with cheap and free games. Implying, then, that the depth of the game can sustain interest is negated by that all of the depth is behind SP. Vicious cycle... gotta get to the virtuous cycle. We know what's limiting the game. Now, the game just has to be better.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Odie McCracken
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2015-10-23 17:57:20 UTC
So make Eve free to play and not need sp to progress?

Yeah, but no. I'm not on board with that.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2015-10-23 17:57:57 UTC
Odie McCracken wrote:
So make Eve free to play and not need sp to progress?

Yeah, but no. I'm not on board with that.

Had to fabricate the "free to play" to make the reply seem worth it?

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Odie McCracken
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2015-10-23 18:07:38 UTC
Dror wrote:
Odie McCracken wrote:
So make Eve free to play and not need sp to progress?

Yeah, but no. I'm not on board with that.

Had to fabricate the "free to play" to make the reply seem worth it?


That's what I got from your quote above.

Either way, no big deal. I don't think you think this is the game you think it is. Maybe try to find one that fits what you're looking for?
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2015-10-23 18:10:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Dror
Odie McCracken wrote:
Dror wrote:
Odie McCracken wrote:
So make Eve free to play and not need sp to progress?

Yeah, but no. I'm not on board with that.

Had to fabricate the "free to play" to make the reply seem worth it?


That's what I got from your quote above.

Either way, no big deal. I don't think you think this is the game you think it is. Maybe try to find one that fits what you're looking for?

Is that deflection?

I'm interested in addressing the problems that the development videos list with the game, which they're plausibly aware of -- upon which, now we have the announced idea of increased microtransactions. It's your game as well.

Can you actually refute the benefits of removing SP?

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Odie McCracken
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2015-10-23 18:15:03 UTC
Deflection? Not sure what you mean by that.

I think removing SP is a stupid idea. I like Eve's system and think it's a selling point of the game.

That's really all I have to say on this.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#87 - 2015-10-23 18:26:07 UTC
Dror wrote:
I'm interested in addressing the problems that the development videos list with the game, which they're plausibly aware of -- upon which, now we have the announced idea of increased microtransactions. It's your game as well.

Can you actually refute the benefits of removing SP?


You've yet to show any benefit to it. Given the universal reaction to the dozens of identical threads you make on the subject is a resounding "hell no", when will you take the hint?

If you ran a bakery and all of your customers asked you to make more chocolate chip cookies, you would bake more oatmeal raisin because you read they sell well in a book.

Listen to the playerbase. Listen to the customer more than trusting a textbook you read last semester.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2015-10-23 18:45:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Dror
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Dror wrote:
I'm interested in addressing the problems that the development videos list with the game, which they're plausibly aware of -- upon which, now we have the announced idea of increased microtransactions. It's your game as well.

Can you actually refute the benefits of removing SP?


You've yet to show any benefit to it. Given the universal reaction to the dozens of identical threads you make on the subject is a resounding "hell no", when will you take the hint?

If you ran a bakery and all of your customers asked you to make more chocolate chip cookies, you would bake more oatmeal raisin because you read they sell well in a book.

Listen to the playerbase. Listen to the customer more than trusting a textbook you read last semester.

"Muh anecdote."

Here.

Odie McCracken wrote:
Deflection? Not sure what you mean by that.

I think removing SP is a stupid idea. I like Eve's system and think it's a selling point of the game.

That's really all I have to say on this.

If you would say removing SP is stupid, then you would say the game with SP is stupid. It's the same experience but with more involvement and freedom.

If you wouldn't entertain the idea of a game without SP (instead of your SP advantage), why should fresh subs entertain the idea of an unfair field, where they had come for fairness and competitiveness?

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#89 - 2015-10-23 19:01:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Cidanel Afuran
Dror wrote:

"Muh anecdote."

Here.


That would solidly destroy the game. Don't re-post what you already posted. 90% of us would unsubscribe if your change happened.

For the third time, what is the profile of the type of player CCP is going after? What are they looking for in an in-game experience?

I get it dude, you are upset you can't properly fly a capital ship yet. If you want to do that so bad, buy a cap pilot on the bazaar. Don't fundamentally change one of the things that has made EVE one of the highest ranked MMOs for over a decade simply because you aren't creative enough to find something to do while training.

Quote:
If you wouldn't entertain the idea of a game without SP (instead of your SP advantage), why should fresh subs entertain the idea of an unfair field, where they had come for fairness and competitiveness?


No one comes to EVE for fairness. One of the major selling factor is that you can do whatever you want. You don't have to fight fair. If you get into a fair fight in EVE you did something wrong leading up to it.

You don't like that kind of environment. Maybe EVE isn't for you.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#90 - 2015-10-23 19:04:34 UTC
Dror wrote:
What's the design philosophy?

For fresh subs?
There's nothing to do in station.
There's nothing to do in space.



Since, as others have noted, your post rapidly devolves into largely incomprehensible drivel from here, let's talk about this part, specifically.

This seems to be the premise upon which the rest of your post is predicated, however, these statements are demonstratively and objectively false.

Hell, just see my sig for the litany of things one can do, almost all of which are available to new players to some degree.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2015-10-23 19:24:40 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Dror wrote:

"Muh anecdote."

Here.


That would solidly destroy the game. Don't re-post what you already posted. 90% of us would unsubscribe if your change happened.

For the third time, what is the profile of the type of player CCP is going after? What are they looking for in an in-game experience?

I get it dude, you are upset you can't properly fly a capital ship yet. If you want to do that so bad, buy a cap pilot on the bazaar. Don't fundamentally change one of the things that has made EVE one of the highest ranked MMOs for over a decade simply because you aren't creative enough to find something to do while training.

Quote:
If you wouldn't entertain the idea of a game without SP (instead of your SP advantage), why should fresh subs entertain the idea of an unfair field, where they had come for fairness and competitiveness?


No one comes to EVE for fairness. One of the major selling factor is that you can do whatever you want. You don't have to fight fair. If you get into a fair fight in EVE you did something wrong leading up to it.

You don't like that kind of environment. Maybe EVE isn't for you.

The idea is that all of gaming has a pretty similar profile. That's how objective motivation is touted as so helpful (even from the development videos).

Can't support SP scientifically or logically where it's being challenged? Why reply?

SurrenderMonkey wrote:
This seems to be the premise upon which the rest of your post is predicated, however, these statements are demonstratively and objectively false.

You're trying to take something literally that's figurative. There's a whole post there -- and there are plenty after it.

Ordinarily, if something is poorly understood, responses come with questions. Let them come.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#92 - 2015-10-23 19:34:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Cidanel Afuran
Dror wrote:
The idea is that all of gaming has a pretty similar profile. That's how objective motivation is touted as so helpful (even from the development videos).

Can't support SP scientifically or logically where it's being challenged? Why reply?


Why do you assume all gaming as a similar profile? That couldn't be farther from the truth. That's been my point in asking you to describe the profile of a typical EVE player.

SPs are a system that's kept EVE as one of the top rated MMOs for over a decade. Logic doesn't support changing that.

Actions have consequences. We like that. I can't blindly re-roll a new character and have the same skills. My reputation is tied to my name, and I have to live with my actions. We like that also. If you remove time-based SPs, reputation is suddenly meaningless, as anyone can re-roll a new character at any time. The entire social-political landscape of EVE disappears overnight.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2015-10-23 19:36:30 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Dror wrote:
The idea is that all of gaming has a pretty similar profile. That's how objective motivation is touted as so helpful (even from the development videos).

Can't support SP scientifically or logically where it's being challenged? Why reply?


Why do you assume all gaming as a similar profile? That couldn't be farther from the truth. That's been my point in asking you to describe the profile of a typical EVE player.

Logically as SPs is a system that's kept EVE as one of the top rated MMOs for over a decade. Logic doesn't support changing that.

You overestimate SP as a feature. Are you implying it gets hordes of players to come to the game?

If it deters them, that's an issue.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#94 - 2015-10-23 19:38:15 UTC
helana Tsero wrote:
I tried to understand what you posted I really did.

did you just have half a thought and then just copy paste from some game design theory book or blog your reading in your first year college course...
Welcome to a discussion with Dror.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#95 - 2015-10-23 19:38:52 UTC
How to structure a paragraph.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
Thierry Orlenard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2015-10-23 19:41:26 UTC
Dror wrote:

The idea is that all of gaming has a pretty similar profile.


That's true. I have often noted the similarity between Candyland and Call of Duty: the names of both begin with the letter 'C'. This is a scientific, logical, objective fact.


Quote:
That's how objective motivation is touted as so helpful (even from the development videos).

Can't support SP scientifically or logically where it's being challenged?


Oh, I think I finally get it. This whole thread is a huge joke.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#97 - 2015-10-23 19:41:45 UTC
Dror wrote:
You overestimate SP as a feature. Are you implying it gets hordes of players to come to the game?

If it deters them, that's an issue.


Why did you ignore the second paragraph in my post? Don't worry! I'll post it again!

Actions have consequences. We like that. I can't blindly re-roll a new character and have the same skills. My reputation is tied to my name, and I have to live with my actions. We like that also. If you remove time-based SPs, reputation is suddenly meaningless, as anyone can re-roll a new character at any time. The entire social-political landscape of EVE disappears overnight.

SPs deter a certain kind of person. That's a good thing.
Odie McCracken
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2015-10-23 19:46:30 UTC
This thread is what we get when we give every kid a trophy Ugh
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#99 - 2015-10-23 19:55:49 UTC
You're too used to having things handed to you. This is not a theme park, it is a sandbox. A REAL sandbox, not some pansy-ass GTA style sandbox. The things you do have real consequences. If you sit on your ass, no **** nothing will happen, but if you stir up trouble or go poking around, things you could never even imagine in a theme park game will start happening constantly.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#100 - 2015-10-23 19:59:34 UTC
Paul Pohl wrote:
thanks for confirming why 'game design' is one of those non-degrees


"Game Design" degrees are what people who want to become game developers study before losing all their prospective jobs to people with computer science degrees, artists, and designers with actual portfolios.