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Replace learning implants with the new Blood Raider sites

First post
Author
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#21 - 2015-10-22 21:50:47 UTC
Zappity wrote:
This builds upon the assumption that learning implants will be removed as per CCP Rise’s post (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5859807#post5859807). I would like the current Blood Raider sites to be left in place, perhaps slightly modified. I love them.

There was a surprising amount of satisfaction in consuming a booster than I had just looted from a wreck and seeing the booster timer flash up on the screen. My reward! The little lightning icon in the skill queue is great, too.

Importantly, the site can be run in PvP ships. They are therefore very tempting when you are roaming around looking for a fight. They are generating LOTS of content.

I would suggest a couple of tweaks, namely more variants with longer training times and strengths. Also, please make them available on the market rather than contract only.

I don’t know what to do with learning implants. But I do know that this is just better. This is hopefully a redundant post owing to CCP already have decided that this is the way to go.


What's wrong with an "as well as" solution rather than an "instead of"?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2015-10-22 21:58:49 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Zappity wrote:

Why? These sites are focus points for conflict and provide rewards for people willing to get out in space. I don't understand why training boosts are a bad thing.

Because it becomes grind for your Xp.
It's just a sneaky way to bring levels into EVE. Since if people have to grind for skills, then they are in space where you can shoot them, so xp grinding and levels should be introduced to EVE and the passive skill queue should be removed right?

One of the big unique draws of EVE is the passive SP gain, and the fact that everyone gains at (roughly) the same pace. Your progress is dictated by where you want to put that Sp.

If these Boosters become regular, then it becomes a grinding game instead.
No, no one has to grind for anything specifically the same way no one has to grind for anything specifically now. No one considers learning implants, that do the exact same thing, an introduction of levels to the game. This is no different. And unlike level grinding, the option not to use them doesn't halt progress.

Training still remains passive and time based but allows some interaction greater than set and forget with an infinite queue. The introduction of these is LP stores could also resolve the issue of what to do with learning implants to create an even better isk sink for being temporary.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#23 - 2015-10-23 00:47:40 UTC
I really like this as a one-time event, but it is "grinding for SP" and that is a bad thing.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#24 - 2015-10-23 00:50:26 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
No, no one has to grind for anything specifically the same way no one has to grind for anything specifically now. No one considers learning implants, that do the exact same thing, an introduction of levels to the game. This is no different. And unlike level grinding, the option not to use them doesn't halt progress.

Training still remains passive and time based but allows some interaction greater than set and forget with an infinite queue. The introduction of these is LP stores could also resolve the issue of what to do with learning implants to create an even better isk sink for being temporary.

Actually people do, because you have to grind isk simply to maintain passive SP gain each time you get podded.
Which is one of the reasons people have been campaigning for years to get learning implants removed, because they are a form of 'buying' SP. Which again benefits the rich vets making alts, not the real newbies.

50% increase of SP gain as a 'grind' item is not 'passive' SP gain. It's a massive change.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-10-23 01:20:38 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
No, no one has to grind for anything specifically the same way no one has to grind for anything specifically now. No one considers learning implants, that do the exact same thing, an introduction of levels to the game. This is no different. And unlike level grinding, the option not to use them doesn't halt progress.

Training still remains passive and time based but allows some interaction greater than set and forget with an infinite queue. The introduction of these is LP stores could also resolve the issue of what to do with learning implants to create an even better isk sink for being temporary.

Actually people do, because you have to grind isk simply to maintain passive SP gain each time you get podded.
Which is one of the reasons people have been campaigning for years to get learning implants removed, because they are a form of 'buying' SP. Which again benefits the rich vets making alts, not the real newbies.

50% increase of SP gain as a 'grind' item is not 'passive' SP gain. It's a massive change.
I've seen several arguments for removing learning implants, but that reasoning, that you are obligated to grind, was never one of them, mainly because grinding isk to replace lost assets was never considered an issue. This should be no different.

The issue with learning implants is their ability to be lost, causing players to have to chose between not taking risks and having to potentially replace those implants. As I understand the boosters bypass this.

Also not everything can or should benefit new players, and in this case that players could purchase faster training could serve as an aspiration. To the specific numbers, as a permanent system it's absurd, but that doesn't mean it can't be toned down to make it functional as a long term system.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2015-10-23 01:21:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
FT Diomedes wrote:
I really like this as a one-time event, but it is "grinding for SP" and that is a bad thing.
Ignoring for a moment the strength of the numbers and short lifespan, how is this different from attribute implants?

Edit: Or for that matter any other resource?
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#27 - 2015-10-23 02:17:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Malcanis wrote:
What's wrong with an "as well as" solution rather than an "instead of"?

Yes, we have been over this before. I have no objection to an 'and' solution, especially if they cannot be stacked. I am assuming that the decision to remove attributes/learning implants has already been made but perhaps this is incorrect.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#28 - 2015-10-23 04:40:46 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
I really like this as a one-time event, but it is "grinding for SP" and that is a bad thing.
Ignoring for a moment the strength of the numbers and short lifespan, how is this different from attribute implants?

Edit: Or for that matter any other resource?


I am opposed to attribute implants as well. They should be removed from the game. I've explained this argument in depth in enough threads around here that I do not feel the need to rehash it here.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#29 - 2015-10-23 05:35:54 UTC
they got rid of clone cost. Just use whatever + stat implant you can afford without going over what a new clone would cost you.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#30 - 2015-10-23 05:55:05 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
they got rid of clone cost. Just use whatever + stat implant you can afford without going over what a new clone would cost you.

It had nothing to do with cost.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2015-10-23 06:24:25 UTC
Why not make it a temporary replacement for implants?
+10 makes it a very grindy boost.
+5 makes it a temporary replacement for implants if it replaces the attribute gain from implants.

A signature :o

Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#32 - 2015-10-23 09:03:16 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
What's wrong with an "as well as" solution rather than an "instead of"?

Yes, we have been over this before. I have no objection to an 'and' solution, especially if they cannot be stacked. I am assuming that the decision to remove attributes/learning implants has already been made but perhaps this is incorrect.

Why would they remove Implants and replace it with boosters. If they are going to remove attributes then I can't see them adding items that would boost attributes / training time as it defeats the purpose. As it stands implants offer a couple of benefits over enhancers.

1. Implants are not time limited and so do not induce as much of a grind (if you buy +4s and you go on holiday then the +4s are still there when you get back)

2. Implants are destructible and so fit in the with philosophy of eve and add interesting choices and consequences.

I do think implants should be rebalanced though so that they cost less, and also pirate implants should confer higher attribute bonuses.

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
The issue with learning implants is their ability to be lost

The opposite, that is what makes them interesting and gives you a meaningful decision. If you are playing Eve and complaining about having to make choices which result in consequences, ie losing implants, then you probably are playing the wrong game.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#33 - 2015-10-23 09:37:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Moac Tor wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
What's wrong with an "as well as" solution rather than an "instead of"?

Yes, we have been over this before. I have no objection to an 'and' solution, especially if they cannot be stacked. I am assuming that the decision to remove attributes/learning implants has already been made but perhaps this is incorrect.

Why would they remove Implants and replace it with boosters. If they are going to remove attributes then I can't see them adding items that would boost attributes / training time as it defeats the purpose. As it stands implants offer a couple of benefits over enhancers.

1. Implants are not time limited and so do not induce as much of a grind (if you buy +4s and you go on holiday then the +4s are still there when you get back)

2. Implants are destructible and so fit in the with philosophy of eve and add interesting choices and consequences.

I do think implants should be rebalanced though so that they cost less, and also pirate implants should confer higher attribute bonuses.

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
The issue with learning implants is their ability to be lost

The opposite, that is what makes them interesting and gives you a meaningful decision. If you are playing Eve and complaining about having to make choices which result in consequences, ie losing implants, then you probably are playing the wrong game.

In my opinion the key problem with learning implants is that they are 'sitting in station' implants rather than 'out in space' implants and do not add to the undocked experience in any way. It is nothing to do with loss or risk - other implants are much more expensive and many people are perfectly happy to PvP in them.

Having said that, I think that attribute enhancers and training rate boosters are not necessarily the same thing. You can have training rate boosts after removing attributes.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#34 - 2015-10-23 11:26:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Maldiro Selkurk
So you basically want to move SP boosting from everywhere to just places that benefit you.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#35 - 2015-10-23 13:53:52 UTC
So, here is one of my problems with the new booster. They do not work well with the skill queue. I've been traveling a lot lately. After being deployed for over six months, I flew back home for three days of glorious Eve time - no more logging in on a laptop with a 4G connection to eke out a couple of hours here and there. No, I could actually sit down at my desktop, with two glorious screens, tasty beverages in abundance, and play Eve properly for 10-12 hours straight.

So, I did. I went out exploring. I went looking for these Blood Raider sites. I got a bunch of the new cerebral accelerators - enough to keep all my characters training at a high rate until 2 November. I had a lot of fun gathering them. Running from Russian hordes. Chasing away single Russians. Etc. But one of the greatest joys was plugging in that +12 booster and watching the training time for Caldari Carrier V drop considerably.

Tomorrow I fly off to see my family. The skill queue is a wonderful thing, because if I do not pay close attention to Eve for the next few days, my characters will still keep training away. The OCD in me, however, sees how many "potential SP" I am leaving on the table if I do not find a way to log in all seven characters I am currently training and plug in a new cerebral accelerator every two days.

If I was not able to play Eve at all right now, then perhaps it would not bother me that much... Actually, yes, it would. The whole point of a promotion like this is to make people want to login and get out in space doing things. I want to take advantage of this opportunity.

Now, in the grand scheme of things, this is peanuts for a character of my age, but it is still an issue. I could finish Caldari Carrier V a few days earlier. My alt could finish Cynosural Field Theory V that much sooner. It's taken me right back to eight years ago, when I used to set alarm clocks to log in to add a new skill because Gunnery V was going to finish at 01:57:33 and I'll be damned if I waste six hours worth of skill training.

All Eve subscriptions should be created equal - the only thing you can consistently expect from Eve is that your character will keep training skills so long as you pay your subscription and update your queue. It's the only thing that kept me subscribed for the past six months, when I otherwise could not have justified paying for Eve.

That is why I would rather see everyone train at the same rate - no remaps, no boosters, no implants. Pay your subscription and your character learns at a steady, consistent 2500 SP/hour. The occasional promotion like this is all well and good, especially if it draws people back to the game, but it has to be occasional.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#36 - 2015-10-23 20:39:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
I see no problem with rewarding people who log in and get out in space. Having said that, I also travel a lot and it would be irritating to miss out on boosts while away. But maybe that is OK - if you do not log in often you still get the base rate. I'm not sure CCP should balance the game in favour of people who do not log in regularly.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#37 - 2015-10-23 21:20:56 UTC
Zappity wrote:
I see no problem with rewarding people who log in and get out in space. Having said that, I also travel a lot and it would be irritating to miss out on boosts while away. But maybe that is OK - if you do not log in often you still get the base rate. I'm not sure CCP should balance the game in favour of people who do not log in regularly.

Except it's not the 'base rate'.
Right now the base rate is with a booster. Because the sites are common.
If you make them less common it becomes a situation where the rich can buy additional SP and the poor can't. Because the rich can run the sites in blinged out T3's and the like and therefore win any contest vs the poor people also.

So, either it's only for the rich, in which case it's the old vets with resources who benefit.
Or it's for everyone in which case the new base rate is higher, and you are just forcing people to grind for SP

And grinding for SP is directly counter to EVE's philosophy in general.
I'm not even keen for this to be a once in a while event, even if I'm making use of it.
Note how a lot of the people against the SP selling are also quite openly saying if it comes in they will make massive use of it themselves, but they are against it despite the fact it actually will help them.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#38 - 2015-10-23 21:52:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Except it's not the 'base rate'.
Right now the base rate is with a booster. Because the sites are common.

But this is not true. Base rate is unmodified training rate. If you choose to accelerate it, whether this be with easy sites or expensive purchases, this is no longer base rate. I see no problem with having sites which are easy to run. Better that noobs can access without paying vets I think.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2015-10-24 00:08:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Moac Tor wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
The issue with learning implants is their ability to be lost

The opposite, that is what makes them interesting and gives you a meaningful decision. If you are playing Eve and complaining about having to make choices which result in consequences, ie losing implants, then you probably are playing the wrong game.
No, the issue as CCP and most that have objection to them is fundamentally their capacity to be lost.

Whether you work that out a bit to being about "grinding" or "risk aversion" the fundamental issue always boils down to their ability to be lost and having an associated cost for replacement.

If you want to play this "you may be playing the wrong game" BS, take that up with the company making the game and looking to replace them for reasons similar to those I listed.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2015-10-24 00:17:45 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
So, here is one of my problems with the new booster. They do not work well with the skill queue. I've been traveling a lot lately. After being deployed for over six months, I flew back home for three days of glorious Eve time - no more logging in on a laptop with a 4G connection to eke out a couple of hours here and there. No, I could actually sit down at my desktop, with two glorious screens, tasty beverages in abundance, and play Eve properly for 10-12 hours straight.

So, I did. I went out exploring. I went looking for these Blood Raider sites. I got a bunch of the new cerebral accelerators - enough to keep all my characters training at a high rate until 2 November. I had a lot of fun gathering them. Running from Russian hordes. Chasing away single Russians. Etc. But one of the greatest joys was plugging in that +12 booster and watching the training time for Caldari Carrier V drop considerably.

Tomorrow I fly off to see my family. The skill queue is a wonderful thing, because if I do not pay close attention to Eve for the next few days, my characters will still keep training away. The OCD in me, however, sees how many "potential SP" I am leaving on the table if I do not find a way to log in all seven characters I am currently training and plug in a new cerebral accelerator every two days.

If I was not able to play Eve at all right now, then perhaps it would not bother me that much... Actually, yes, it would. The whole point of a promotion like this is to make people want to login and get out in space doing things. I want to take advantage of this opportunity.

Now, in the grand scheme of things, this is peanuts for a character of my age, but it is still an issue. I could finish Caldari Carrier V a few days earlier. My alt could finish Cynosural Field Theory V that much sooner. It's taken me right back to eight years ago, when I used to set alarm clocks to log in to add a new skill because Gunnery V was going to finish at 01:57:33 and I'll be damned if I waste six hours worth of skill training.

All Eve subscriptions should be created equal - the only thing you can consistently expect from Eve is that your character will keep training skills so long as you pay your subscription and update your queue. It's the only thing that kept me subscribed for the past six months, when I otherwise could not have justified paying for Eve.

That is why I would rather see everyone train at the same rate - no remaps, no boosters, no implants. Pay your subscription and your character learns at a steady, consistent 2500 SP/hour. The occasional promotion like this is all well and good, especially if it draws people back to the game, but it has to be occasional.
Why should training be wholly unmodifyable? I get the idea of a sub letting you train, but not how that extends to the rate of training within reason. Honestly I don't see the training system itself as becoming more valuable when just a static element of time which no effort or behavior can modify.

But then I guess that's just a personal opinion.

The specific issue here could easily enough be solved through lowering the boost and lengthening the timer on a more permanent implementation of these boosters.