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What happens now with the Skillpoint trading idea?
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Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#21 - 2015-10-23 01:29:08 UTC
helana Tsero wrote:
Meh... Im looking forward to skillpoint trading (with appropriate farming safeguards) and I know alot of people who are as well.

EvE needs to evolve if it wants to survive in the FTP dominated MMO enviroment.

Its not 'Pay to Win' its just 'Pay to Lessen the Train'. Something you can do right now via the character bazar.



No, because now you have to buy Plex from CCP (CCP benefits) then sell it to a player for Isk (Player benefits) then use that isk to buy a character from a player (Another Player benefits) and you get a character (You benefit).

The new system... you are bare minimum taking one of the players who benefit out of the equation, and possibly everyone but You and CCP.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2015-10-23 01:39:14 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Ok, so buying blueprints for in game use, or starter packs with fitted frigates, or cerebral accelerators or implants that boost more than normal implants... all of that fits under CCP's 2011 promise that micro-transactions were not a serious idea and that all ideas were going to flow through the CSM?

Got it.

Slippery slope.

Funny how some of the same people who say CCP has babied up the game and made it soft think there is nothing wrong with the ever increasing move towards Pay-2-Win.
I've not seen any CSM opposition to the starter packs, which mainly comprise ships given away for free by the NPE, an accelerator which is limited in use timeframe, and some other assets which amount to either a temporary isk injection or some cosmetics.

The only thing that could be objectionable is the blueprints assuming they aren't BPCs (I'm genuinely unsure if this is the case).

Or are we arguing now that a few starter ships given free anyways, some low tier mods and an implant only usable at the beginning of a characters life is the break point of P2W MTs?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2015-10-23 01:43:11 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
helana Tsero wrote:
Meh... Im looking forward to skillpoint trading (with appropriate farming safeguards) and I know alot of people who are as well.

EvE needs to evolve if it wants to survive in the FTP dominated MMO enviroment.

Its not 'Pay to Win' its just 'Pay to Lessen the Train'. Something you can do right now via the character bazar.



No, because now you have to buy Plex from CCP (CCP benefits) then sell it to a player for Isk (Player benefits) then use that isk to buy a character from a player (Another Player benefits) and you get a character (You benefit).

The new system... you are bare minimum taking one of the players who benefit out of the equation, and possibly everyone but You and CCP.
The only person who might be excluded is the in game plex buyer, which is a non-issue as it means the player didn't need to buy plex to get the packet, making the system more accessible to more players.
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#24 - 2015-10-23 01:50:07 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
helana Tsero wrote:
Meh... Im looking forward to skillpoint trading (with appropriate farming safeguards) and I know alot of people who are as well.

EvE needs to evolve if it wants to survive in the FTP dominated MMO enviroment.

Its not 'Pay to Win' its just 'Pay to Lessen the Train'. Something you can do right now via the character bazar.



No, because now you have to buy Plex from CCP (CCP benefits) then sell it to a player for Isk (Player benefits) then use that isk to buy a character from a player (Another Player benefits) and you get a character (You benefit).

The new system... you are bare minimum taking one of the players who benefit out of the equation, and possibly everyone but You and CCP.



So what.. There are plenty of ways to print isk in EvE. If your income from character bazaar farming is running dry switch to something else.

Your acting like the EvE game world is some sort of special snowflake system that exists outside real world pressures of development costs and the need for income to cover those costs.

This new system

A - allows people, if they so choose, to minimize the training grind and meet the entry requirements for exploring different aspects of EvE quicker. Like joining a wormhole corp or a null/low sec corp with a compulsory ship doctrine. Whether they find skipping the training time rewarding or not is up to them. + I like killing people in shiny ships who have no clue how to fly them. Twisted

B - Allows people who like their character (name) and don't want to buy a new one via the bazaar just so they can fly a command ship etc to do so.. (and don't want to wait 4+ months training for the command ship +associated skills.)

C - gives CCP some extra cash so their business can continue to be successful and EvE can continue well into the future. That's not a bad thing.

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
Raffael Ramirez
Alcohol Fuelled
#25 - 2015-10-23 01:59:07 UTC
Thanks for all the opinions so far, I wanted to have a 'CCP: we are looking at it and will publish the refined idea later' but I realize that it might have been a bit much to ask.

Anyway I find it slightly worrying that most posters seem to think that the whole feedback blog was just a way for CCP to troll us.
To give us an Idea that will spark an emotionally driven posting diarrhea that leads to online forum strokes and then disregard the feedback and do what was planned.

I haven't been part of all the previous expansions/changes that were considered controversial so I might be naive but wasn't CCP aiming for more transparency at some point? (maybe it was the greed is good thing?)

So my follow up question would be, why ask for feedback at all?
And wouldn't it be better to guide a discussion around a big change and have a dialog rather than: here is the info fight like rabid dogs?

A little background information about the issue would also have helped I guess rather than letting players get their tinfoil on and let the figure out possible risks/benefits themselves.
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#26 - 2015-10-23 02:17:04 UTC
Raffael Ramirez wrote:
Thanks for all the opinions so far, I wanted to have a 'CCP: we are looking at it and will publish the refined idea later' but I realize that it might have been a bit much to ask.

Anyway I find it slightly worrying that most posters seem to think that the whole feedback blog was just a way for CCP to troll us.
To give us an Idea that will spark an emotionally driven posting diarrhea that leads to online forum strokes and then disregard the feedback and do what was planned.

I haven't been part of all the previous expansions/changes that were considered controversial so I might be naive but wasn't CCP aiming for more transparency at some point? (maybe it was the greed is good thing?)

So my follow up question would be, why ask for feedback at all?
And wouldn't it be better to guide a discussion around a big change and have a dialog rather than: here is the info fight like rabid dogs?

A little background information about the issue would also have helped I guess rather than letting players get their tinfoil on and let the figure out possible risks/benefits themselves.







CCP are getting better and better at listening .. finding the worthwhile feedback among the mountains of noise/trolling and then acting on it.

Not the easiest thing to do, act on feedback yet develop with a vision/plan. They cant develop via feedback alone.. that's a recipe for disjointed visionless rubbish.

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2015-10-23 02:43:57 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
[quote=Market McSelling Alt]



Ok, so buying blueprints for in game use, or starter packs with fitted frigates, or cerebral accelerators or implants that boost more than normal implants... all of that fits under CCP's 2011 promise that micro-transactions were not a serious idea and that all ideas were going to flow through the CSM?

Got it.

Slippery slope.

Funny how some of the same people who say CCP has babied up the game and made it soft think there is nothing wrong with the ever increasing move towards Pay-2-Win.


So after 5 years a business isn't allowed to change it's business strategy? All of the cosmetic items have been purely that cosmetic, and it's shown that people are willing to buy them, sell them, trade them, gank for them, etc.

As for the starter packs, well I would say that's a whole different ball game except for the fact that this blood raiders event has clearly shown that everyone and their mother is absolutely okay with buying, selling, trading, etc. to get their hands on these or profit from them. Tell me honestly that you (or on any alt you own) haven't run one of the sites for the skin/booster, haven't sold either of them, haven't bought them at a low price and resold them at a higher price, or actually used them yourself. If you honestly haven't, then okay I'll maybe listen to you, but if you've done any of the above then you're already openly supporting the ability to trade SP because that is exactly what those boosters are: SP boosters.

And if you're still worried about some new guy coming in, spending $100 on plexes for liquid isk, buying the start packs for another $5.99, and then spending even more to buy SP so he can fly his pimped BS......well just remember just because you can fly the ship doesn't mean you actually know how to fly it. EvE is a skill based game in practice, but in reality it's a player's skill based game. Skip the time to learn the game while you skill up and you won't be prepared for the real thing when it's time.

--------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::-------
Raffael Ramirez
Alcohol Fuelled
#28 - 2015-10-23 03:29:13 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:


So after 5 years a business isn't allowed to change it's business strategy? All of the cosmetic items have been purely that cosmetic, and it's shown that people are willing to buy them, sell them, trade them, gank for them, etc.

As for the starter packs, well I would say that's a whole different ball game except for the fact that this blood raiders event has clearly shown that everyone and their mother is absolutely okay with buying, selling, trading, etc. to get their hands on these or profit from them. Tell me honestly that you (or on any alt you own) haven't run one of the sites for the skin/booster, haven't sold either of them, haven't bought them at a low price and resold them at a higher price, or actually used them yourself. If you honestly haven't, then okay I'll maybe listen to you, but if you've done any of the above then you're already openly supporting the ability to trade SP because that is exactly what those boosters are: SP boosters.

And if you're still worried about some new guy coming in, spending $100 on plexes for liquid isk, buying the start packs for another $5.99, and then spending even more to buy SP so he can fly his pimped BS......well just remember just because you can fly the ship doesn't mean you actually know how to fly it. EvE is a skill based game in practice, but in reality it's a player's skill based game. Skip the time to learn the game while you skill up and you won't be prepared for the real thing when it's time.


Do you think that the fictional person you just described would hang around after the inevitable gank happened? Wouldn't a slower learning process with more frequent but in itself cheaper losses not build resistance to frustration and encourage risk aware gameplay?
Raffael Ramirez
Alcohol Fuelled
#29 - 2015-10-23 03:36:55 UTC
helana Tsero wrote:


CCP are getting better and better at listening .. finding the worthwhile feedback among the mountains of noise/trolling and then acting on it.

Not the easiest thing to do, act on feedback yet develop with a vision/plan. They cant develop via feedback alone.. that's a recipe for disjointed visionless rubbish.



I am completely foreign to the gaming industry other than using their products, but I can only envision it like being Butters in the latest south park episode. Solely feedback driven design would be a train wreck I agree, I personally would just like to know what the whole question/story behind the idea of asking for feedback was and what happens after the feedback is collected.
As in , test acceptance or gather alternative ideas etc.
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
#30 - 2015-10-23 04:06:30 UTC
Zappity wrote:
The next thing I want to see regarding skill points is the learning implants removed and replaced with the boosters in these new Blood Raider sites. They are providing great content with lots of pilots competing for them. And, most importantly, they can be done in pvp fits.


So much truth to this. I like these new sites; it's fresh, unknown and everyone seems to have tried it or is constantly grinding them.

I look forward to the idea of trading SP.

@lunettelulu7
Bluntmasta
Humankind Empire of Abh
Fraternity.
#31 - 2015-10-23 05:58:49 UTC
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
Nah dude, they're going to lay low a bit and let the forums cool. They know better to incite even more of a **** storm against them, by bringing it up again so soon. Don't expect a dev blog on it for... Probably 2-3 weeks. They know we're apposed to the idea, and if they ever want to see it implemented without a lot of backlash they'll have to take it slow and keep it from becoming a multi week hot topic.


You are assuming that everyone is against the idea. I for one have no problem with the idea. Learn to adapt to change or gtfo. We need fresh blood in this game if it is going to continue for years to come. If everyone continues to freak out at any sign of change the game will be shut down before we know it.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2015-10-23 06:09:59 UTC
Raffael Ramirez wrote:
Yun Kuai wrote:


So after 5 years a business isn't allowed to change it's business strategy? All of the cosmetic items have been purely that cosmetic, and it's shown that people are willing to buy them, sell them, trade them, gank for them, etc.

As for the starter packs, well I would say that's a whole different ball game except for the fact that this blood raiders event has clearly shown that everyone and their mother is absolutely okay with buying, selling, trading, etc. to get their hands on these or profit from them. Tell me honestly that you (or on any alt you own) haven't run one of the sites for the skin/booster, haven't sold either of them, haven't bought them at a low price and resold them at a higher price, or actually used them yourself. If you honestly haven't, then okay I'll maybe listen to you, but if you've done any of the above then you're already openly supporting the ability to trade SP because that is exactly what those boosters are: SP boosters.

And if you're still worried about some new guy coming in, spending $100 on plexes for liquid isk, buying the start packs for another $5.99, and then spending even more to buy SP so he can fly his pimped BS......well just remember just because you can fly the ship doesn't mean you actually know how to fly it. EvE is a skill based game in practice, but in reality it's a player's skill based game. Skip the time to learn the game while you skill up and you won't be prepared for the real thing when it's time.


Do you think that the fictional person you just described would hang around after the inevitable gank happened? Wouldn't a slower learning process with more frequent but in itself cheaper losses not build resistance to frustration and encourage risk aware gameplay?



Who cares? 15 minutes of research on EVE will make it clear that it's a challenging and unforgiving game.

There's no cure for ALOD morons. Their only place in the game is as victims of hilarious kills, until they quit.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2015-10-23 08:51:22 UTC
Most people are going to be in blobs for safety as usual so even brand new players who buy skill points will be relatively safe. Very small minority will buy skills, try to solo and get blown up due to lack of knowledge.

Claytons argument that this will lead to easy kills - instead of a newb in frig tackling for gang it'll be newb in T3. Much safer for newb.

Having said that I support this great change

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Anahl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2015-10-23 14:26:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Anahl
helana Tsero wrote:
Meh... Im looking forward to skillpoint trading (with appropriate farming safeguards) and I know alot of people who are as well.

EvE needs to evolve if it wants to survive in the FTP dominated MMO enviroment.

Its not 'Pay to Win' its just 'Pay to Lessen the Train'. Something you can do right now via the character bazzar.


As for what happens next... I hope its implementation.

After some more farming safeguards are added - like a sp cap and a limit on the number of times a player (not charcter or accounts) can sell or buy the sp packs in one year.


I'm not really for a yearly limit, perhaps a daily or weekly if anything. What I really like about this idea is that it gives players the power to "grind" character power. If I want to spend more time in Eve and psuedo farm up my character power, I do it by farming ISK and converting it into SP.

This is a good thing, it will get a lot of players more involved in the Eve universe, whether it's mining, exploration, etc. I'm already looking at ways to make more ISK while exploring things I haven't done yet, like exploration.
To those who don't have the time to farm, well you have the option of purchasing a PLEX every once in awhile, which let's face it, it's not that expensive, and it helps CCP out, which in turn allows them greater resources to build upon EVE, which in turn gives us a better player experience.

The idea that I can farm up power level is a basic fundamental that *I* enjoy in MMO's, so I'm looking forward to this.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2015-10-23 14:45:00 UTC
Anahl wrote:
helana Tsero wrote:
Meh... Im looking forward to skillpoint trading (with appropriate farming safeguards) and I know alot of people who are as well.

EvE needs to evolve if it wants to survive in the FTP dominated MMO enviroment.

Its not 'Pay to Win' its just 'Pay to Lessen the Train'. Something you can do right now via the character bazzar.


As for what happens next... I hope its implementation.

After some more farming safeguards are added - like a sp cap and a limit on the number of times a player (not charcter or accounts) can sell or buy the sp packs in one year.


I'm not really for a yearly limit, perhaps a daily or weekly if anything. What I really like about this idea is that it gives players the power to "grind" character power. If I want to spend more time in Eve and psuedo farm up my character power, I do it by farming ISK and converting it into SP.

This is a good thing, it will get a lot of players more involved in the Eve universe, whether it's mining, exploration, etc. I'm already looking at ways to make more ISK while exploring things I haven't done yet, like exploration.
To those who don't have the time to farm, well you have the option of purchasing a PLEX every once in awhile, which let's face it, it's not that expensive, and it helps CCP out, which in turn allows them greater resources to build upon EVE, which in turn gives us a better player experience.

The idea that I can farm up power level is a basic fundamental that *I* enjoy in MMO's, so I'm looking forward to this.
Yes, and look at the other side of the coin, too:

Anytime you don't need your SP, you can sell your whole monthly SP for something that will likely be very close to a PLEX and play for free! Or use an alt for free.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#36 - 2015-10-23 14:47:08 UTC
What happens now is some more people leave this deteriorating game. It is losing its soul. It is catering to the instant gratification generations. The time based sp system was one of the key elements, along with permanent pvp losses, that differentiated this game from others and made it difficult and simultaneously great.

This was a good game. I began playing it in 06. In my day you started with **** for sp and trained learning skills. You waited almost half a year to fly a ****** tier 1 BC fit with named modules, and you liked it. Now the game is rapidly sucking as it morphs into just another clone of all the other **** MMOs on the market.Straight

It is doubtful that the selling of sp will slow or reverse the decline in players. In the short term is will probably accelerate it. For those of you that stay I wish you luck. There will probably be a few rich idiots that purchase buttloads of sp, bling out some expensive dream hulls, and lose them in extraordinarily ******** ways. But I wont be here to see it with you.

No you cant have my stuffs. It will rot on a blade somewhere in London, as I shuffle off into the sunset with my cane.Pirate

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2015-10-23 15:04:55 UTC
Deacon Abox wrote:
What happens now is some more people leave this deteriorating game. It is losing its soul. It is catering to the instant gratification generations. The time based sp system was one of the key elements, along with permanent pvp losses, that differentiated this game from others and made it difficult and simultaneously great.
For me EVE's soul is its incredibly free and open sandbox PVP, as in player v player in all its forms (including market PVP, organizational and out-of-game PVP between power blocs, etc.).

The best win, the worst lose. Simple as that. Beautiful as that.


Honestly, the skill training system has nothing to do with ruthless competition among players. You gain SP over time. Full stop.

You gain the exact same SP (a part from minor attribute or implant adjustments) if you're smart or stupid, nice or nasty, sociable or obnoxious. Hell, you don't even have to log in to gain the damn SP!


Skill system has nothing to do with EVE's player v player core, it is and always was quite clearly a simple mechanic to keep players subbed by opening up (some) content over time. Just as any other game that needs to make money.

It's funny how people become attached to a mechanic that is really there just to make CCP's business model work.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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