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The next step for black ops ships
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Sunomi Hakuli
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2015-10-22 14:37:50 UTC
Well I thought the questions should be posted to the forum. I'm probably going to get chopped up for this one but I'm okay with it is still fun I do that. Should there be a dreadnought class for the black ops ship line. We already have the covert frigate you also have the cover cruisers, and we have the black op battleship. Being that we have the new drifter threat and the pirate factions actually flexing their weight. I think I'll be in at two surprises see more super caps being played with for the destruction. Also entertaining the idea of a black ops dreadnought will be awesome. I was only a few tweaks to the ship's overall design and since its covert to change a few of its offensive and defensive points in particular.

I think its ability will be more of a home base to pull all of the Black Ops tips and fleet as one unit instead of having to pick them out individually. Also as a nasty surprise for carries and Titans as they would not expect a super capital uncloaking right in front of them and whisking away after the job is done. I believe there will be more super cap battle with the pirate factions in the future development of eve so lets through it in for a test to keep players on there toes. I think it will be an excellent addition for the Citadel that are coming into play in the game soon down the line. Another feature I like this class is a maintenance be that as functional to carry a bunch of smaller frigates or cruisers.

Throw your input, your rants, or just your two cents. I would like to hear what the community has to say about this little idea of mines weather be for good or for worse.
Robert Warner
Back Door Burglars
#2 - 2015-10-22 14:47:46 UTC
Sunomi Hakuli wrote:
Well I thought the questions should be posted to the forum. I'm probably going to get chopped up for this one but I'm okay with it is still fun I do that. Should there be a dreadnought class for the black ops ship line. We already have the covert frigate you also have the cover cruisers, and we have the black op battleship. Being that we have the new drifter threat and the pirate factions actually flexing their weight. I think I'll be in at two surprises see more super caps being played with for the destruction. Also entertaining the idea of a black ops dreadnought will be awesome. I was only a few tweaks to the ship's overall design and since its covert to change a few of its offensive and defensive points in particular.

I think its ability will be more of a home base to pull all of the Black Ops tips and fleet as one unit instead of having to pick them out individually. Also as a nasty surprise for carries and Titans as they would not expect a super capital uncloaking right in front of them and whisking away after the job is done. I believe there will be more super cap battle with the pirate factions in the future development of eve so lets through it in for a test to keep players on there toes. I think it will be an excellent addition for the Citadel that are coming into play in the game soon down the line. Another feature I like this class is a maintenance be that as functional to carry a bunch of smaller frigates or cruisers.

Throw your input, your rants, or just your two cents. I would like to hear what the community has to say about this little idea of mines weather be for good or for worse.



To be honest, after years of Black Ops being broken in the past I think they're in a rather sweet position at the moment. While a black ops dread sounds like an awesome idea, the reality is that it won't be often used - the problem is that dreads are major hardware to drop, they're expensive and hard to extract if the proverbial faeces meets the chopper. These are the primary reasons why we don't often see them dropped onto carriers at the moment.

The sole advantage of a black ops dread would be to remain cloaked in a staging system, while it will inevitably cost more and suffer reduced performance compared to its regular cousin.

Most clever hot droppers would simply log off a regular dreadnought in a quiet staging system within their black ops operating range and pull it in with a regular cyno if they need it.

Just a quick note also, dreadnoughts are not classed as super-capitals: this title is reserved for the currently non-dockable capital ships - supercarriers and titans.
Vollhov
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2015-10-22 15:02:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Vollhov
BO R.I.P And also most of the BS.

End of Time. I'm not fanatic, I'm just a servant by Her Majesty the Empress Jamyl Sarum I. It's time to leave this world to me. YC111 to YC117.12.10 20:00
Sunomi Hakuli
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2015-10-25 04:28:30 UTC
Robert Warner wrote:
Sunomi Hakuli wrote:
Well I thought the questions should be posted to the forum. I'm probably going to get chopped up for this one but I'm okay with it is still fun I do that. Should there be a dreadnought class for the black ops ship line. We already have the covert frigate you also have the cover cruisers, and we have the black op battleship. Being that we have the new drifter threat and the pirate factions actually flexing their weight. I think I'll be in at two surprises see more super caps being played with for the destruction. Also entertaining the idea of a black ops dreadnought will be awesome. I was only a few tweaks to the ship's overall design and since its covert to change a few of its offensive and defensive points in particular.

I think its ability will be more of a home base to pull all of the Black Ops tips and fleet as one unit instead of having to pick them out individually. Also as a nasty surprise for carries and Titans as they would not expect a super capital uncloaking right in front of them and whisking away after the job is done. I believe there will be more super cap battle with the pirate factions in the future development of eve so lets through it in for a test to keep players on there toes. I think it will be an excellent addition for the Citadel that are coming into play in the game soon down the line. Another feature I like this class is a maintenance be that as functional to carry a bunch of smaller frigates or cruisers.

Throw your input, your rants, or just your two cents. I would like to hear what the community has to say about this little idea of mines weather be for good or for worse.



To be honest, after years of Black Ops being broken in the past I think they're in a rather sweet position at the moment. While a black ops dread sounds like an awesome idea, the reality is that it won't be often used - the problem is that dreads are major hardware to drop, they're expensive and hard to extract if the proverbial faeces meets the chopper. These are the primary reasons why we don't often see them dropped onto carriers at the moment.

The sole advantage of a black ops dread would be to remain cloaked in a staging system, while it will inevitably cost more and suffer reduced performance compared to its regular cousin.

Most clever hot droppers would simply log off a regular dreadnought in a quiet staging system within their black ops operating range and pull it in with a regular cyno if they need it.

Just a quick note also, dreadnoughts are not classed as super-capitals: this title is reserved for the currently non-dockable capital ships - supercarriers and titans.


So what would you want to improve on the regular dread and the rest of the black ops ships. Also what would you want to have and in a black ops dread?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#5 - 2015-10-25 08:46:16 UTC
First they should get over their terror and give B.O. a covert cloak, so that they can actually warp unseen. With the introduction of jump fatigue they removed the ability to perpetually cyno after the smaller coverts, a good thing, but it means they should get the covert cloak to actually travel covertly.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#6 - 2015-10-25 08:51:57 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
First they should get over their terror and give B.O. a covert cloak, so that they can actually warp unseen. With the introduction of jump fatigue they removed the ability to perpetually cyno after the smaller coverts, a good thing, but it means they should get the covert cloak to actually travel covertly.


Nope, not happening. Because it's silly and asking for this makes you look silly.
Otso Bakarti
Doomheim
#7 - 2015-10-25 09:22:06 UTC
(Panther - I trained up for one just in time not to buy one.)

Why not stealth an entire planet if we're going to go this way with it? I can sell you a fleet of invisible ships, by the way.

There just isn't anything that can be said!
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-10-25 12:16:06 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
First they should get over their terror and give B.O. a covert cloak, so that they can actually warp unseen. With the introduction of jump fatigue they removed the ability to perpetually cyno after the smaller coverts, a good thing, but it means they should get the covert cloak to actually travel covertly.


D-scan immunity should be enough to be honest. Cov op cloak would probably be a tad overkill considering they have their covert cyno.

But frankly, this whole covert line of ships seems to be used mostly for just that: summoning bigger and nastier ships.

Again, I feel it is the intel from local channel that is severely suppressing these ships and what they ought to be doing: get to a system unnoticed, find a target, pop it and then get out again before anyone can react. And be very effective in doing so.

Correct me if I am wrong but are any of the major alliances using cov/black ops in this manner extensively at all?
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#9 - 2015-10-25 12:19:34 UTC
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
First they should get over their terror and give B.O. a covert cloak, so that they can actually warp unseen. With the introduction of jump fatigue they removed the ability to perpetually cyno after the smaller coverts, a good thing, but it means they should get the covert cloak to actually travel covertly.


D-scan immunity should be enough to be honest. Cov op cloak would probably be a tad overkill considering they have their covert cyno.

But frankly, this whole covert line of ships seems to be used mostly for just that: summoning bigger and nastier ships.

Again, I feel it is the intel from local channel that is severely suppressing these ships and what they ought to be doing: get to a system unnoticed, find a target, pop it and then get out again before anyone can react. And be very effective in doing so.

Correct me if I am wrong but are any of the major alliances using cov/black ops in this manner extensively at all?


Explain to me how something being used by large alliances or not somehow denotes its usefulness or capabilities. BO are, by definition, NOT interesting for large groups... they're for small groups, that's the whole point of the things.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#10 - 2015-10-25 13:35:12 UTC
Black ops are fine

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Ix Method
Doomheim
#11 - 2015-10-25 13:49:07 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Explain to me how something being used by large alliances or not somehow denotes its usefulness or capabilities. BO are, by definition, NOT interesting for large groups... they're for small groups, that's the whole point of the things.

Myopic bullshit like this is what makes this forum so depressing.

Travelling at the speed of love.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#12 - 2015-10-25 13:53:58 UTC
The only thing that needs to change is to allow covert cynos in high sec.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Robert Warner
Back Door Burglars
#13 - 2015-10-25 14:21:43 UTC
Sunomi Hakuli wrote:


So what would you want to improve on the regular dread and the rest of the black ops ships. Also what would you want to have and in a black ops dread?


My personal vision for a black ops dread is to have it specialised to hit smaller targets. CCP have already announced anti-subcapital weapons for dreadnoughts, although these look as though they leave much to be desired, with only battleship level damage application or slightly higher (see recent dev. blog on capital ships). A black ops dreadnought could build upon this, offering a higher damage output (say in the range of 2000 - 2500 DPS) with tracking suitable to hit enemy battleships and perhaps even a further fitting option to use anti-cruiser weapons which can dish out around 1,250 DPS. The ships would be unable to fit regular anti-capital dreadnought guns.

A further possible option is to have a much shorter siege timer on the black ops dread (say 1 minute), but that would have to be worked into the balance of the ship itself.

This would place it in a very unique position as a shock troop (in fitting with the black ops vision). It would, of course have the extra fitting slot for a regular cloaking device, though perhaps not gain the speed benefits that battleships do when cloaked. The ship would also have a large fuel bay and another slot available to fit a jump portal generator, thus playing the role of titan for black ops groups.

Immediately people will be concerned that these black ops will be used all over the place because of their facility to hit smaller ships. However, since the black ops dread won't be able to fit standard dreadnought weapons, it will melt against enemy dreadnoughts. An organised opponent could bait them into a fight they won't be leaving (similar to the tactics used against current black ops). It would also have tighter fitting options outside of weapons, cloaking and generator, perhaps not being able to make best use of capital plates or shield extenders.

I don't agree with suggestions to allow black ops to use covert cloaking devices. This move would change the role of these ships significantly and make extraction even easier - I think the current risk in using black ops is already low enough.
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2015-10-25 14:26:07 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
First they should get over their terror and give B.O. a covert cloak, so that they can actually warp unseen. With the introduction of jump fatigue they removed the ability to perpetually cyno after the smaller coverts, a good thing, but it means they should get the covert cloak to actually travel covertly.


D-scan immunity should be enough to be honest. Cov op cloak would probably be a tad overkill considering they have their covert cyno.

But frankly, this whole covert line of ships seems to be used mostly for just that: summoning bigger and nastier ships.

Again, I feel it is the intel from local channel that is severely suppressing these ships and what they ought to be doing: get to a system unnoticed, find a target, pop it and then get out again before anyone can react. And be very effective in doing so.

Correct me if I am wrong but are any of the major alliances using cov/black ops in this manner extensively at all?


Explain to me how something being used by large alliances or not somehow denotes its usefulness or capabilities. BO are, by definition, NOT interesting for large groups... they're for small groups, that's the whole point of the things.


Well, the largest alliances are the one with the biggest budget and BO are, by definition VERY expensive ships. And why the hell would BO not be interesting for large groups? Is it some kind of requirement that large alliances must exclusively fly massive brute force fleets or something? So I call utter BS on your claim that BO's are specifically for small groups by design. The only reason that they are not used more often is because the mechanics and their functionality are clashing.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#15 - 2015-10-25 15:36:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberius Heth
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
Well, the largest alliances are the one with the biggest budget and BO are, by definition VERY expensive ships. And why the hell would BO not be interesting for large groups? Is it some kind of requirement that large alliances must exclusively fly massive brute force fleets or something? So I call utter BS on your claim that BO's are specifically for small groups by design. The only reason that they are not used more often is because the mechanics and their functionality are clashing.



No they're not that expensive at all, especially not for what they do. Also large groups rarely have a need for the more specialist/specialised approach of BO with their limited bridging capability, they'll just use titans and bridge everything and the kitchen sink. There's little reason to purposely limit the ships you could bridge (in capability, SP requirement and sheer numbers) if you have the capability of titan travel and sufficient numbers pilot wise.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#16 - 2015-10-25 17:27:05 UTC
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
First they should get over their terror and give B.O. a covert cloak, so that they can actually warp unseen. With the introduction of jump fatigue they removed the ability to perpetually cyno after the smaller coverts, a good thing, but it means they should get the covert cloak to actually travel covertly.


D-scan immunity should be enough to be honest. Cov op cloak would probably be a tad overkill considering they have their covert cyno.

But frankly, this whole covert line of ships seems to be used mostly for just that: summoning bigger and nastier ships.

Again, I feel it is the intel from local channel that is severely suppressing these ships and what they ought to be doing: get to a system unnoticed, find a target, pop it and then get out again before anyone can react. And be very effective in doing so.

Correct me if I am wrong but are any of the major alliances using cov/black ops in this manner extensively at all?


Explain to me how something being used by large alliances or not somehow denotes its usefulness or capabilities. BO are, by definition, NOT interesting for large groups... they're for small groups, that's the whole point of the things.


Well, the largest alliances are the one with the biggest budget and BO are, by definition VERY expensive ships. And why the hell would BO not be interesting for large groups? Is it some kind of requirement that large alliances must exclusively fly massive brute force fleets or something? So I call utter BS on your claim that BO's are specifically for small groups by design. The only reason that they are not used more often is because the mechanics and their functionality are clashing.


Large alliances have specialised blops wings which are usually seperate from main doctrines, black ops are used quite often and are effective for small gang

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Robert Warner
Back Door Burglars
#17 - 2015-10-25 17:58:00 UTC
Gillia Winddancer wrote:


Well, the largest alliances are the one with the biggest budget and BO are, by definition VERY expensive ships. And why the hell would BO not be interesting for large groups? Is it some kind of requirement that large alliances must exclusively fly massive brute force fleets or something? So I call utter BS on your claim that BO's are specifically for small groups by design. The only reason that they are not used more often is because the mechanics and their functionality are clashing.


Thankfully this question has a simple enough answer. Black ops does not support logistics ships and F1 bunnies. Without logistics, there is no sense to mass dropping of black ops ships and I am very glad of this. This means it does not fit in well with huge fleet fights outside of some potential specialist roles which are rarely realised.

Black ops is confined to knocking out specific small targets who are usually unaware that they're in danger. Each black ops pilot must rely on their own ship and skills to survive if things go awry. This is not in keeping with large group activities.
Sunomi Hakuli
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2015-10-25 21:47:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Sunomi Hakuli
Robert Warner wrote:
Gillia Winddancer wrote:


Well, the largest alliances are the one with the biggest budget and BO are, by definition VERY expensive ships. And why the hell would BO not be interesting for large groups? Is it some kind of requirement that large alliances must exclusively fly massive brute force fleets or something? So I call utter BS on your claim that BO's are specifically for small groups by design. The only reason that they are not used more often is because the mechanics and their functionality are clashing.


Thankfully this question has a simple enough answer. Black ops does not support logistics ships and F1 bunnies. Without logistics, there is no sense to mass dropping of black ops ships and I am very glad of this. This means it does not fit in well with huge fleet fights outside of some potential specialist roles which are rarely realised.

Black ops is confined to knocking out specific small targets who are usually unaware that they're in danger. Each black ops pilot must rely on their own ship and skills to survive if things go awry. This is not in keeping with large group activities.



Oh my what have I started today. I thought this world be small and simple but apparently has blossomed into something amazing. I am enjoying everyone's feedback and input on how that would make BOS work in Eve. I appreciate the commentary and I have some points I want to throw out from Milan to sense. A black ops dreadnought would be handy in the sense that I am comparing it to the Sansha carrier. Very specialized and really not a part of the main show. I look at a black ops dread not as a way to lead sub capitals and the other specialized ships around. Looking towards its ability to move stuff away in quietly from system to system.

Touching new information that came out about the anti sub capital offense on capital ships. I think it will be a nice addition. I'm not looking to make a giant fleet that would not drop anyone and destroy everyone. More of a hit and run tactics to wear it would take out specialized ships and be able to move large distances. Recurrent black ops ships are nice in there Billy to jump but when it comes to arrange they are lacking. When you compare it to Alliance is the ability to maneuver a stealthy fleet around your opponent and not be seen to attack a weak point in its defense is to be desired. I'm not looking for a old P ship that would destroy all and instant.

Robert Walker made some great points about the set up he will use in a ship. From the fuel Bay and over apps module. I would do away with the siege module to expand more on anti-sub capitals. But in return I get a better jump radius, fuel consumption and some perks too speed and protection. Lastly I would like a redesign of the hypothetical Black Ops Dreadnought. Make it look sleek and sexy while paying hommage to the original design for each faction. To add a few more things will be to throw in a larger cargo bay or maintenance array inside. Storing your covert op frigates and cruisers to fly around and switch out if needed.

This is for everyone to reply to. What if you can use your factional standings 6.0 and higher with a certain faction. To allow you to use cover cynos in highsec. This way you can not just have everyone flying around and messing things up but you have to invest yourself with a certain faction to use it.

Also this one goes out to CCP to allow specific Black Ops missions to escort factional NPCs into low sec and high sec without the penalty to another race because it's a covert mission.

Well I like to see it go a little farther with this form and hear everyone's opinion on my input if you desire thank you for your time .
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#19 - 2015-10-25 22:59:07 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Large alliances have specialised blops wings which are usually seperate from main doctrines, black ops are used quite often and are effective for small gang


I forgot to specifically mention that and it might seem as if I left that out but yeah, of course, there's small groups within large entities that make good use of them but they will never be a main doctrine, nor should they become THAT good to be considered to become one.

BO need very little, if anything at all. A slight rebalance per type and some small overall mobility stat changes, that's all that's needed. Dscan immunity would be silly OP.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#20 - 2015-10-26 15:04:50 UTC
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